Trembling Before G-d | Sandi Simcha DuBowski, David Silverstein

wow it's really intense to see the film um I just you know just the I mean I'm reminded of I spent six weeks um in Jerusalem just trying to get Orthodox rabbis to speak to me um about homosexuality and I remember just you know spending years hearing people's stories you know being this kind of you know I believe that a documentary filmmaker is a is a schak is a is a messenger um and that's a deep responsibility and I so many people were so scared to speak to Orthodox rabbis and I felt like I had to be that that that witness and um and I went to Rabbi after Rabbi who hung up the phone who slammed the door you know over weeks and at one point I just remember um just having this like hyperventilating and feeling like if I don't get married to a woman I'm going I will not have kadua I will not have Holiness in my life and it was like this this tiny moment where I felt what so many people that I had you know met and spent so much time with felt every day um and I called d'vorah um who is the married Ultra Orthodox lesbian who has the many children in the film and she sort of calmed me down and I sort of spun back into um but it was a very it's it was just to even make the film was holding a lot of pain and holding a lot of tension and struggle be or and holding sin and it was it was you know it took six years to make and and only very very few people who are as Brave as David was and is to you know to come forward and share their story you were you were such a groundbreaker well um I I really excuse me I really have to thank you Sandy for uh being so groundbreaking in making this film I mean I was knowing myself I was more when I realized that I was gay and I grew up like I said the movie Orthodox and I grew up in a very closet not closeted very Orthodox community in Chicago and I only went to Orthodox Jewish Day schools and my only people that I knew everybody was Orthodox I didn't know anybody that wasn't even Jewish um and the only gay person I knew was my mom's hairdresser who I was repulsed by and that was what gay was to me my mom's hairdresser Jimmy and um so even though I uh knew on a certain level when I was in high school that I had these feelings I couldn't I didn't have the knowledge to label it I was it was if you would have told me in high school David you're gay accept it I wouldn't have even blushed because I would said no I'm not gay the effeminate hairdresser of my mom that's what gay is and I just thought I had feelings that I didn't know what that attraction meant and I thought the ability to recognize Beauty and women was heterosexuality so I was really completely um innocent and naive and I didn't realize that I was 19 where I went to University and I went to the Jewish H and next to the H was the gay student organization and I I remember thinking very clearly God how could people openly in daylight walk into the gay Student Association they embarrassed and then I saw a guy that looked like a regular guy that was attracted was one of my classes and I saw him walk into the gay student organization and I thought why would he walk in there he's normal and I thought oh something I said the f word um you can be normal and gay and that's when the light will went off in my head and it's strange to think that how could I how could this be true without what I'm saying but it's the truth I I was I led I was call where I grew up anatea with cars that's how she that's what I grew up I grew up in anatea it was you know we we just knew one way of life everybody kept kosher everybody kept shabas everybody got married everybody had children no one was divorced I never heard about anything that wasn't quote the norm but then when I realized I realized okay like I said in the movie and um I took this rabbi's advice and I went on this TW this uh 10year I was in therapy for 10 years try to become straight and it what the way I met Sandy was Sandy presented this as a work in progress at outfest and when I saw the 10 minutes of trembling before God it just grabbed me by the throat and for some reason I just felt I went up to sany and I said I should be in your film because this describes my life and I was and I I'm I'm not a person that advertised it at all I mean I I was only my sister and then knew for 10 years and I was extremely private but I just felt compelled and that this was a perfect venue for me to help myself and help others in this huge huge issue which was never discussed really before so it was it was h a gift really a huge gift Samy thank you how has your life been after the film came out what what have whatever was released um I remember I was nervous because was I was afraid that because it was for three months at the theater on Sunset in Crescent Heights and I was mortify that people at work would see me or that I didn't know how this was going to impact my life would I get fired would I um and and also it was shown around the country and around the world and in Israel and my whole Israeli family found out because it was on Sunday night television there and like the 6 PM movie and um so basically came out to my whole high school and everybody I knew through Sandy so you saved me a lot of phone calls and um and so it was a little bit of a relief that I didn't want people to say oh David's gay I wanted them to be strapped in their seats and listen to the whole story because it's very easy to label mock like like the Rabbi says the rabbi with the slick black hair and he so it's very easy to demonize and dehumanize but once you know someone it's difficult to do that and so when I know that people can see and hear the whole story and struggle it's it's more than saying you see someone I'm gay okay whatever but when they understand through this movie which was done so amazingly well I mean the editor Susan quter I met her I know I know nothing about movies I knew nothing about making movies and the way she edited this movie it transformed I mean it was I mean you made an amazing movie but editing it is so hard I didn't know and she just did such an amazing job just splicing it and make and really giving it such power and such St so how it's changed me uh right now my I'm here with my spouse of three years we got Mar we got married actually um I think a little over a month after it got legalized in California so that's the big thing um that's a very good thing and um because when I see the movie I say do I live my life alone and sell of it my relative in Israel what he said when he saw the rabbi he wanted to scream and strangle the rabbi what he what he what he said to me because it was really one of the things there were a few things that I wanted the public to know is that rabbis and people don't get it they don't well everyone's got their struggle in life like I struggle not having sex with all these women mared well yeah yeah but you have sex with your wife and people just don't get it okay you can not eat ham sandwiches yeah but you can eat cornbeef sandwiches so people so many people come back with that same argument like no that's not the same thing and there are so many things that I wanted made um the film to express that even the struggle you everyone's got the struggle you just have to like that psychi psychologist like to me they me that okay someday um it just amazing I don't know how he feels today but the way that he say this is his ideal what what a Orthodox person is to be on anti-androgen therapy it's like you you know but that this was 20 years ago I don't know how he feels today so um my life is very very different you know I still have since I would you grow up with you still have those pays and I've all my friends my most of my friends are straight and married with children and my closest friends all live in Israel that I grew up with because we grew up in a very sistic school and they all live in Israel and got married and have children and so I want to go with claudo to their houses uh we go on Sabbath and holidays and meals and and um I feel like it's I'm completely embraced we are completely embraced and um yeah so it's it's it's it's a road that I grow and I'm still growing and I still have ways to grow but this was definitely a big kick in the um to Surge me forward to self-acceptance and also I feel proud that to with you to this has been I think a huge contribution to so many people that have struggled with the same issue or with other issues where they don't feel that they belong so yes Andy you spent I mean after the film premiered at Sundance it was you saying it was three straight years of I mean even probably even more than that traveling the world with this film and creating dialogue and meeting people and what was that what was that period like what was that experience like it was definitely um you know it was a roller coaster um you know there were just hundreds of people who would just cry on my shoulder and you know parents who disown their children saw the film and started speaking to them again um we convene um I mean all of us were on the road at various points Rabbi Steve Greenberg and David and Michelle and um we convened the first ever um Orthodox mental health conference on homosexuality which was like a secret underground conference for hidic orthodox psychiatrist psychologists um for some people if anyone knew they were there um they would have lost their jobs and everything um we trained 12 facilitators in Jerusalem um they went out and did screenings in private for 2,000 principles teachers and school counselors across the entire country to prepare for that Israeli TV broadcast um the head of that project um friend of mine she wanted to share the film with her fiance and she shared it with him and afterwards he turned to her and he said I'm gay I can't marry knew um so her man her life was saved um people came out everywhere um and then and we took the film really to the largest Jewish communities in the world we went to Ukraine um to Odessa to Kiev to Poland to Hungary Australia South Africa Brazil Argentina Mexico Uruguay all over Israel Canada Holland Germany UK I mean I was on the road for years but you know the need was so great I mean it was like the Tipping Point you know and so it just felt like I made a decision I wasn't going to make another film I was just going to delay that and then just really serve the burning need um of so many people um so we even had protests um in front of the Baltimore theater we had Orthodox Jews and Evangelical Christians together protesting the film so you know we do Interfaith work wherever we go well David mentioned you know the way the film was cut and edited and it's and I mentioned on the stage it's such a beautiful movie I really do feel like it's a documentary but also it's a work of art it's both and you found a way to do that um specifically one of the things that you know I think is the most interesting one of the very interesting things about the film is the way you handle anonymity I mean the Aesthetics of anonymity it's probably the warmest most human Shadows I've seen in a docu mean you see documentaries all the time with people are covered up their voices are altered or whatever but you you have Pottery in front you have the the the lace veils the the um the ceremonies performed in Shadow it transforms our experience of anonymity and and in a really powerful way can you talk a bit about how you approached that aspect of the film the the the fear people felt and bringing them into the project and then presenting them on screen in that yeah I mean that device of you know having everyone come behind the screen to create their images that came in the editing room and I mean that was just the most it was like the it was basically anatevka like it was like the shle that we all wanted to live in this sort of queer you know htic stle where everyone came I mean we had hdic people bring their children I mean you saw their children they're babies like their toddlers P like you know like it was this whole mix of straight and lesbian and queer and transgender and gay and everyone there and it was like invisibility illuminated like I think one of my favorite moments is when someone passes in front of the the candle and their Shadow becomes illuminated from the inside and for me that is like the resonant metaphor you know of what sort of of what yeah of what the soul like how do you represent soul in cinema how do you represent you know re like religiosity holy how do you represent Holiness you know visually and in cinema and I think that really touched at something um for me that was aesthetically profound well you're dealing with such I mean you're dealing with the fundamental building blocks of humanity sexuality and spirituality and one of the things that another through the Aesthetics through the stories the way you present the the stories the way people share is you you start with this idea or idea that you have to be one or the other you know you can't be gay and normal you can't be gay and Orthodox or you can't be gain spiritual you can't be like there's these binary categories and the one of the most powerful things about this film is it just without even well Ian it's said explicitly but it also on a very um I think unconscious but you know conscious level it really attacks the idea not attacks it just undermines the idea of binary categories across the board sexuality spirituality I mean when you were you know uh working with the film did you I mean was there a point where you felt overwhelmed with the kind of the I mean the the depth of the issues that you were dealing with the feelings I mean it just feels what I mean I I sound like I'm gushing but I the film just draws out a lot of emotional I mean thoughts and feelings I mean did you feel the burden of of representing that in a way yeah and and I mean I definitely you know there are moments in the editing room where you just close a door and you hurl your head on the table and just weep um I mean that's what happened I just um I remember just watching the suicide of the lesbian and Israel and just you know there's a lot of Brokenness um and a lot of pain and a lot of trauma and you know it I I mean I spent 10 years making the film and you know and moving it around the world and and then after just really took like a it's almost like in order to I me you've had this experience through your whole life but but to sit with rabbis and to have to justify your love um you know to even stand I remember being in front of audiences and trying to you know say that you know the Torah prohibits anal sex between men but it's like you know and I had to sort of be the voice of of the Torah and and almost feel like I was desexualized like I had to be this neutral party sort of convening conversation in the same audience with Orthodox straight people and lesbian gay people and having to hold that tension you know in public and getting blowback and having to kind of you know really wrestle um for years I think it I mean it took its toll on me I definitely needed to take time to reunite my mind body and soul again and to kind of integrate and and you know go on lots of Retreats but yeah I think it was it was very intense I don't know what you what that movement for you was like well we I also don't want to underplay because I think it's very important the sense of joy in the film too I mean the the Deep joy that people feel that find in connecting with their spirituality regardless of what the world might tell them they're they feel that they're true in their own faith I mean I you know it's I every time I watch the movie I think I want to convert you know what I'm saying I mean it's the the sense of joy and pleasure and um in the film is also just also tremendous so this this balance of these things but did you David you how did you feel watching the film with for the first time or participating in its production the these kinds of well actually aspect I had no we were filming together for five years and I had no idea things took that long and but yet it was an it was amazing gift and to be able to um the most powerful it was amazing gift to participate in the film to be filmed to really think deep because this forces you to really think deeply about so many things I think a big thing even more than Judaism is family which is so Central in this in the film the pain of family rejection because you don't fit the mold of what your parents wanted you to be and I got I don't know just hundreds of emails and I would say a significant percentage had nothing to do with homosexuality people not feeling that they fit in and so so much of this of this film of course it's about homosexuality and Judaism and finally addressing an issue that was never that was in the closet and was never addressed so this was groundbreaking and probably one of the most powerful conversations was in Jerusalem at the place called the cinema Tech and there I think there probably were 500 people in the audience and all all you know rabbis and people that were religious not religious and um to be in Jerusalem and it was we were completely embraced you could the the love and the exceptions was tangible in in the air and I remember just feeling and I remember a woman that was a holocaust she gets up she pulls on her sleeve um she got up in the middle and she showed the number on her arm and saying what basically what she's been through and like what are we crutching of what we what do she's been through so much what we're going through is nothing compared to what she went through like who cares it doesn't matter what you are I mean just accept yourself it's it's not it's not an issue and I thought well if I can be accepted not necessarily from this woman the example of this woman but just by to be embraced by rabbis by peers by friends in the holy city to me in the world was Jerusalem um everything else is commentary and so that was that was such a gift and um and just the fact that it was shown that it this has been a springboard because this really was the beginning of of a shift because this was the first time this was really before reality TV 15 years ago it wasn't like everything today's reality TV but then it really wasn't so this was really a spring Bo of opening the door to this to the dialogue so it's caused a lot of change very good which which I think is tremendous and I'm very proud to be a part of it and and grateful so so I was just thinking we just David and I just did the 15th anniversary screening in New York um at IFC Center and Michelle was there um who you meet in the movie she's the one who walks through the carnival um I mean you wouldn't recognize her now I mean she's I think half her size she had her stomach stapled and and she had a child and the child's name is Shir which means song Michelle's father was a caner she's a singer and Michelle brought her child to the screening and her child had never seen trembling before God before and never saw Michelle in the movie Child's now nine and was Shira and gender transitioned and is now Cole isn't he and he just turned to Michelle and said why is everyone in silhouette and Michelle said because they could lose everything and he said I'm so happy that I don't have to be in silette that I can be who I am and I'm so proud that you're my mom and I love you and and it was just amazing to see this film has now gone to Future Generations and we're watching the family you know and the history and the Legacy and the ancestry being passed down and um you know at the screening we had jqi Jewish queer youth they were all teenagers they were Orthodox they were in yeshivas they were in high schools they were all they came to the film and a week later formed this youth movement that is just they've done so much work with Orthodox rabbis pushing them and you know petitions and I mean they've really like caused a sea change of this next Generation activism and they were all there and now they're you know in their early 30s and so I just there is like you know there was just an uncorking and just this swept movement and the stories are just incredible from all over the world um of people whose lives and rabbis and communities and families and leaders changed um so many Orthodox synagogues have shown this film in the synagogues um um and it really it became a household word I think at one point guys in yiva would turn to each other and go are you trembling like like are you gay like it just became part of the dictionary um yeah I think it's I don't know if it's still on YouTube but the whole movie I thing is is on YouTube now they took it off of Netflix but now you don't need Netflix you just go on YouTube so um let's turn over to the audience questions for Sandy or dve we have microphones to wait for the mik to come up to you and we'll go right here thanks um because that was the moment that it was when the movie came out I would imagine you had a lot of footage I mean when you edit a movie you can't have everything and you probably filmed some stuff that you loved and weren't able to include in the Final Cut for variety of reasons and I'm wondering if there's things that you didn't include because it was that time that you might include if you were making it today and if you could tell us a little bit about what you wish you could have included but didn't I mean history has catapulted forward I mean you know we're to make this movie now in the erage of in the era of marriage equality you know I mean I specifically did not put marriage you know sort of same-sex marriage in the film I knew that it would that would my whole goal was to break rabbis hearts that was the goal like I needed to be so careful I had the Orthodox police on one shoulder and I had the universal eye on the other and so I had to make this film be as wide as possible for people of every faith and background and then I also had to be so precise and careful um so I knew that if I tried to deal with marriage or I tried to really argue Jewish law in the film and I think Cinema is one of the worst places to try to argue law um in some ways some have done it but but so I had to really focus on the human story um because you know most priests rabbis ministers will look imams will look at the verse in the Bible and say you know black fire on White Fire black and white like it's forbidden you know bang fist on the table and and I had to sort of really bring that that um this is not just about the verse this is about Mala and Michelle and David um and you know bring the human story to life and honestly Jewish law changes through the human story people go to rabbis with questions rabbis need to make rulings and if enough if an avalanche of stories go to the rabbis they have to respond I mean that's their that's their mission so I think that was definitely the constraints and boundaries that I was holding um yeah I mean rabbis have some rabbis said I thought I knew and now I don't know what to say and they went quiet and they started to listen and take everything really seriously rabbis started writing Orthodox rabbis remember Kim Rapaport wrote a whole book on homosexuality you know I mean there were I mean I don't know if you've had experiences with Orthodox rabbis but many have opened their doors and created safe havens in their Orthodox synagogues um for lesbian gay people um so it's you know there's a huge I just came from I mean I have a special surprise for people here um but I'm filming this new film and I was just in Jerusalem where major Orthodox rabbis were battling it out in public around home around some rabbis making completely homophobic statements and other Orthodox rabbis taking them on and in public saying that we need to embrace lesbian gay people you know we need to open our doors we need to um you know I feel like it's it's incredible what's happened oh you have to go for let's go in the back here the man in the white shirt yeah we'll get to you right after thank you thank you very much I I uh tread the film that you said it was so joyful because I find it to be one of the saddest films I've seen uh the fact that a culture is so rich as the the Jewish culture should be so poisonous and hateful the way it is and I I think perhaps and I may be more critical than others is that I would have presented that in a way where there were more suicides be um because of what has happened and how they feel and because it is it is truly a poisonous way to In inculcate This Feeling into people and it makes me uh ashamed to be a Jew in that way uh and I'm glad to have run from it because I could become any other religion I cannot if I'm gay I'm gay that's it but I can become Scientologist I Catholic anything else but that's how I feel about it at least that's what your film so in in a way the film was a success for me because you you bring but I would have made it stronger the hate you were very gentle and very kind and very loving I think that might be a mistake thank you you know I mean look I had people who saw the film I had someone in Miami say I'm Catholic I'm gay How can I convert to Orthodox Judaism you know and I had a woman you know start sobbing within the first 15 minutes and run out of the movie and and say you know that she's a reformed Jew and and you know and she can't handle this so you you know I we've had the whole spectrum of reaction and I hear you you know you know one of just as you know my take on the film and I think um where the joy the joy that I see in the film comes from you know and maybe this was a conscious decision why would somebody put up with this if you're gay and they reject you why go back to them just you know why would you put why would you put yourself through that right and I think part of what the film does is it says because there's something real there that they feel that is important to them and it's a beautiful thing I mean it's this and it brings great joy to be able to perform the rituals to be with your family and perform the rituals and that connection is why they put up with all of the other crap they have to put up with and and why they want to be accepted in that that Community because they want to maintain that relationship ship with God and with their families through God I mean that seemed like a very powerful part of the film to me I mean I had I became more religious because of the film I mean I met people like David people in the film who are htic and Orthodox who are lesbian or gay and I was doing shabas with them and I was building auka and I was they were teaching me how to lay to Fillin and I was learning songs and and I just felt like I had an entry point into Judaism without the homophobia so I had the portal and I think that's what you know for many people like David who grew up with it you're growing up with the homophobia but for someone like me who grew up you know conservative Jewish and not so religious like I you know it was a to be able to study Torah with a hidic gay man for two years was you know someone who I became very close to and um you know he opened the tradition to me in a way that I never had access before so we all have our Journeys but you've also continued making films and you've taken the kind of the exploration to other Faith communities and to other you know can you talk a little bit about that process and how you um you know the films that you made afterwards how they might be connected to Trembling before God so uh we I did a lot of interfaith work with trembling all all over the globe and we did an a Muslim Jewish Christian panel in DC and someone approached me saying I'm Muslim I'm gay I have an idea for a movie um on Islam and homosexuality can you give me advice and I said absolutely that sounds like a great idea I'm happy to give you advice I became a consultant then a Consulting producer then a producer and we made a film called a Jihad for love um about uh Islam and homosexuality with people from Iran and Egypt and pakist and India and um yeah and South Africa the first openly gay Imam actually I met him while touring trembling in South Africa and we did an Interfaith panel with traditional African healers with um monks with ministers and this Imam and I said you you're a gay Imam you have to be in this film that I'm producing and then I went on this Muslim gay lesbian transgender Retreat um as the only Jew with them that was pretty incredible experience and um and that film premiered and you know did a whole around the world tour and you know is being used by everyone from people who are um judges in Asylum cases immigration officials in Europe and and the Americas and um Department of Homeland Security and you know being seen underground in Saudi Arabia and Sudan and Afghanistan and we had public screenings with that film in Pakistan and Bangladesh and I went to Lebanon to Beirut went to Istanbul with a film and you know so that film had a whole life and yeah we had extraordinary experiences with people really representing truly every Faith with seek with Buddhist with indigenous two spirit leaders um mixed in with rabbis everywhere um it was quite a quite well you mentioned early the special surprise that we had for the audience tonight which is a I guess we call it a sneak preview trailer of your current project can you set it up and then we'll exit the stage and we'll have we'll show it from the booth and it's about a six minute trailer of his current project you want to set it up first or you want to sure um I you know when I was so when I was in Jerusalem looking for people to be in the movie um I met everyone kept saying there's the chief Rabbi of Israel his nephew is gay and you should talk to him so I I met this guy named amihai and asked him to be in trembling before God and he refused because he's too much of a diva and he wanted his own movie so you wait long enough and you get it um and then yeah he's like I don't do collage um so we started filming 12 years ago um in 2004 and I he just was ordained as a rabbi in May and I'm going to start editing in January and I made this you know this sort of I guess trailer and been using it in fundraising and um and bringing on people for the project and this is its World public Premiere I'm sh I've Group Los Angeles Premiere um so I'm I'm actually really excited to share it with you on a big screen so we'll we'll we'll show it and then we'll come back up on stage and take some more questions and we'll go from there okay let's show Rabbi I probably have 900 hours of footage so it's going to be a long edit um I got to tell you that this is so strange for me because 20 years ago I went to Poland and Israel I always wanted to go to the concentration camps because my grandmother was in osz and my aunt and just being a Jew and just I wanted to feel more because I grew up with hearing my grandmother say Hitler killed my family that was a mantra throughout my entire youth Hillary killed my family Whenever there was a certain there's two types of Police Service the usual one every once while the police s will go so when when that one came on she would freak out so I remember that and so I purposely wanted to go so I I found the Jewish Federation trip where 500 people from across the US went to Poland and Israel and and my the one the counselor from Ice group from La was amai's father I just yeah naali Lei so I just saw them oh my God so I haven't seen I saw he and so he told me stories that were amazing that when he he said when his father was the head of the was the rabbi of theel in Poland and that the Nazis when they came to the when they came to the town the first person they look for was the rabbi if the rabbi did not give himself up they would kill Jews until the rabbi gave himself up he says so my father's father said to us my father told us he says when the Nazis they coming they knew they were coming he say I'm going to myself up I'm sending you two boys off and if by some miracle you survived the war there's been a lineage of rabbis in our in our in our family for Generations I'm asking you to become a rabbi so Nal Le told us he say when when the camps were liberated a lot of the camps the Nazis just ran because the Russians came the Americans came and they we were just left there and he said you you remember naali am's father said I remember thinking that I was the only Jew in the world and I then the thought came to me my father's thought that I should become a rabbi and I said how could I become a rabbi I don't even believe he said maybe my brother maybe my brother he so so he walked three days so you know which Camp his brother was in he say my brother and that time was the chief Rabbi of Israel so he changed him from Le he he named his enough to Le he Israel his name but so this is powerful to i' love to meet him David I wanted to ask you um I don't know if we we touched on it briefly but and if you don't mind me asking how is your faith change since the film came out and I mean after this movie you could ask me anything okay I'm freezing but um my faith has been has changed and shifted and moved and in all different directions in My DNA in my chromosomes I'm an orthodox Jew I feel most at peace when I'm in Jerusalem observing the Sabbath eating kosher being 100% strict with my partner um that's where I feel most at peace my soul is feels a piece um but as the years have gone by I've given up this tradition or done this or done more of this less of this and so I've transitioned to do less practical things but in my in my core I'm the same so I feel um sadness a lot that I don't have what I grew up to be so I mourn the person that I that I was raised to be often and but also on the same L I also celebrate how I and accept and embrace who I am so I'm not completely self-actualized I don't know if anybody is but I definitely am not and um so sometimes it's a struggle and soon then I think how am I so struggling after all that I've done am I can get my a Lifetime Achievement Award of you know of trying you know with 10 years of therapy and doing all this stuff and the movie was such a huge thing I mean what more can a human being do to say God can you please accept me so um I'm but I'm still I'm still back and forth but in my core I feel most at peace with who I grew up with has have things changeed to make it easier for you to find that piece to be a part of that just in terms of the way the world has responded you know things we've been talk well things have Chang I mean you know just being married and being in a relationship that's to has been total shift um I never even dreamed of that even being the possibility realistic possibility or even I didn't want it I only wanted to marry marry a woman and have children and then when I realized that that's not who I am I could say well I want to have brown eyes and I want to be right-handed and and this is who I am so it's just part of growing into who you are and accepting everything that you have things that you want the things that you could would have would would have could have should have um so I've come to embrace myself with everything that I am am and sometime and often still struggle with things that I grew up wishing I could have but but I think for the most part especi especially being in a relationship that has been the the biggest shift in terms of accepting and embracing who I am and also with my closest friends who I connect with with my spouse that I don't feel Tre any different if my partner was my spouse was a woman I don't feel um and this is in Israel more so than here actually any other questions from the audience right FR here we're GNA bring the mic over to you yeah I just I wanted to say that the making of the movie and it's I maybe this is try to say but it's such a profound m in so many ways so in one way I feel that what you've done with your struggle is really um added to the health or the longevity of Judaism because you're changing it in a way that that allows it to go forward instead of making it something that just can't work and would just fall apart ultimately what could be more profound in another way in just a in a more um maybe meat and potatoes way I just want to say thank you to you our daughter recently came out to us and it was pretty easy for for her to tell you the truth certainly compared to what seeing and it's because of people like you guys that you were so brave and you you you're in kind of a unique position I think in the history of the world that you can kind of you're able to see the fruits of the effort that you what you've done because the you we're just seeing so much change around us I don't people usually that kind of change in their own Lifetime and um you know it's so ironic because you've had all these people who say that you're terrible and awful and none of them can touch the Mitzvah that you have done with your lives and so thank you a question over here thank you hi uh so you talked before about the changes that you've seen in this 15E since you've had the 15year screening anniversary you've had like jqy has done all this stuff um you've seen a lot of change and even just screening this I'm sure has brought like you talked about all this positive change and at the same time you know Orthodoxy hasn't really moved that much forward like you know for instance in my hometown I'm from Cleveland Ohio one of the shes there had a screening of this film and the rabbi of that Sho received a letter from all the other rabbis of the community condemning him for what he did so I kind of wanted to know what the reaction has been for you guys from screening this film over the last 15 years and even now kind of how things have changed for you and how you see the Orthodox community when was the screening in the show Cleveland was it current recently oh so it's really and it's an orthodox I mean I you know change is not linear and there's been huge shifts just like Sandy said in Israel where different St different um Orthodox rabbis arguing for and against in terms of the whole topic of homosexuality the Gay Pride Parade which is recently in Jerusalem where many were for many were against and you're always going to have conflicting reports and Cleveland is different from La um Chicago is different from La Midwest is it's at least from I'm the Western so I could speak um it's it's different there's a different mentality I think not you if you want if you can generalize and I think just because and I'm sorry to hear that that in 2016 that that is still happening in Cleveland but that doesn't mean that things can't change and that things will change because things will change because um things that are ethically correct which this film screams um will happen and you'll always have people that are on the fence and people on this side that will say well damn you to how forever there there'll always be people on all sides but I think generally speaking uh especially since it's been 15 years since the film started and it was screened in many Orthodox synagogues 15 years ago a lot in big synagogues in New York City that there there have been big shifts it was screened here in Los Angeles in orthodox synagogue 15 years ago um and there was a lot of um acceptance so but you're always going to have both I mean I'm sorry that to hear that in in your hometown that it wasn't treated like that but um like I said change is not linear and you'll always have people you'll have people that will never accept and then you have people that the more they know and the more knowledge they have um they will change and so this film started I think was a huge Catalyst and starting the whole the whole process of making people wake up and smell the coffee and that there this film was really needed because it's a matter of life and death um literally for many many kid kids many kids kill themselves and or ostracized from their family and so it's it's it's it's it's not like oh well I won't go to this party or I this is a very serious issue and if scholes do not address it um I think it I think it's sinful I think it's sinful because um they're pushing a they're put they don't I don't think they realize that they're talking many people that that they're speaking to are closeted or are living in marriages and fooling around on the side and you know this is a topic that needs to be addressed so I I think that in time you know as time passes things will change more and more but things have shifted hugely and also even in in Israel they've there's been huge huge changes with the Orthodox RAB been making all kinds of edicts about acceptance and respect so there there's overall there's been huge huge changes I really feel a lot of it I I don't know for sure is directly related to this film I mean I'm just amazed to hear what you just said which is Cleveland like Ow like I didn't even I mean that's the thing is that I don't I didn't even know about that I mean things are happening in communities all around the world with this issue with the film that the fact that it wasn't just a dirty secret that no one in Cleveland spoke about that the rabbis would not touch publicly that you know that it was either sin or sickness and was those were the twin poles and that's it the fact that like Orthodox rabbis are battling it out in public in a smaller city in America you know that's not one of the hubs of New York or La is pretty major so you know I mean having just also come from Jerusalem so Amai Amai in Rabbi his brother is a big Orthodox Rabbi in Jerusalem he's the one I was talking about before who was going up against other rabbis I mean had told me he said my brother will never be in the movie it will be political suicide it will be completely risky he will never do it and I wrote this and amai's brother who's Orthodox came to so amai's ordained conservative um so you for people who don't know there's like reconstruction it's renewal reform conservative Orthodox you know when I began the film conservative Judaism if you were outed as a lesbian or gay Rabbi you'd be thrown out of the Seminary you could not become a rabbi a gay or lesbian Rabbi in conservative Judaism I remember when we did the screening in 2002 at the conservative rabbena conference they wouldn't allow us to screen it in the conference we had have screen it down the hill and we had like 80 rabbis and yamakas like trudge down this hill to a screening room and they decided by 2006 to read examined the law and they allowed for the first time in history the ordaining of openly gay and lesbian rabbis and conservative Judaism um which broke the doors of the Seminary and that's why amihai just was ordained as a gay conservative Rabbi um in May so you know these things do have Ripple effects um and you know going to Israel and having amai's Orthodox Rabbi brother agre agree to be in the movie and speak so openly and lovingly about his gay brother who is who he disagrees with on a lot of political levels ideological levels they come from movements that do not you know see eye to eye it's sort of liberal and Orthodox but there's there's Blends and there's boundaries that are shifting and and you know and and you know since so last pride in Jerusalem an ultra Orthodox man stabbed F six people and one of them was killed Shira banki who was 16 years old straight Ally um and since then every week there has been a group of people whove organized dialogue circle on the street in kearton in the middle of Jerusalem and it is queer straight Orthodox non-orthodox Palestinian Jewish whoever comes whoever just comes and this is the Heart of the City people are flowing and there's arguments and there's Revelations and there's talking and it's really extraordinary and someone can come and just stab everyone right there and then they put their bodies on the line for the sake of a public town square and to have the conversations that matter most and Amai and his brother had led this dialogue together when I was just there filming them and it was just amazing so I I don't know and then the next day was pride and 25 30,000 people marched um this was five times as many people as they thought would come and there were so many Orthodox people marching in solidarity um and it was a Jerusalem that you know was like jerus now Jerusalem Pride for Israelis represents what they want their country to be for many people they want to be an inclusive open Progressive place even a lot of the Orthodox people marching so for me there was like just witnessing that and being able to film these past days with amai's brother and pride it was just it was incredible it was really so I have some optimism now coming back from that experience a few weeks ago but yeah there are places that it hasn't permeated hasn't changed but but history does March on on that note I think we're going to wrap it up thank you so much Sandy and David for being with us here today