Outfest UCLA Legacy Project: Tropical Malady | Andrew Ahn, Justin Chang

[Justin Chang:] [big exhale] I'm so glad we're here. We can explain everything, you know I'm just curious. I'm always curious to ask this, but especially for this movie. If this was your first time seeing "Tropical Malady, can you... That's most of them. I saw this movie, I think, 13 years ago on crappy DVD, and so I feel like this is my first time seeing it. Andrew, you know, tell me about your first encounter with this and with Apichatpong's work. Yeah. [Andrew Ahn] So the, the very first film I saw of his was "Mysterious Object at Noon" and I... like, it, it's such a kind of like formal playful movie that like, you know, I didn't even really know like how to read it, and just was like, "this is interesting." And a film school professor of mine was like, "Oh, like, I think you should check out 'Tropical Malady'. I think you'd be really into it." And so I watched it, like on my laptop in probably like 2000- 2009? And it was just like, it was like such an experience. Like, I knew nothing about the movie, and I, like, during that split, like I was like, when it that, that like card comes up, I was like, "Oh wow, the movie's over?" Like I was like, "Oh," like, and then it launches into this second section. And I just was like, "What the fuck is this movie?" You know and then just for me as a like, as like a gay Asian American man like to see kind of desire and it kind of represented in this way, and, you know like, like I will never forget the hand scene. You know like the licking and the smelling and the sucking like that is just like it's always going to be seared into my brain. And, and, and it's just kind of lingered with me, like since then. And so, you know, when, when Brendan asked me to, to guest curate this screening, like this felt like such a great opportunity to see it big. To see it on film. You know, it's - I feel like Apichatpong's career has, has, you know, really gained this kind of momentum that like people are just like, "Oh, well what's the next one?" Right? So like, it just keeps moving forward and so to look back for a moment is nice. [Chang:] And it's funny. I think that we all laughed a little bit when he said, "Oh you remember when my uncle, who can recall his past lives?" Which, in retro... [Ahn:] Totally. [Chang:] you know is a retro-, you know, a "Boonmee" reference in retrospect. It's funny that his career has had this momentum, as you say. When this film first premiered in 2004 at the Cannes Film Festival, I remember reading about it and it rec- it got a very mixed to hostile reception, as a lot of movies that are, you know, operating, in an, in - I almost don't use the word experimental, but you know, on the margins of, of narrative cinema and and just straddling so many different forms. And it won the Jury Prize there. From the jury headed by none other than Quentin Tarantino who vigorously defended the film, kind of in the face of people who were asking, "Why did you give an award to something so difficult?" I think it's funny now because it's been so heartening for me to see, as with, you know, subsequent films since like "Syndromes and a Century" and, and "Uncle Boonmee" and, and "Cemetery of Splendor". It's like, "Okay, we, we get him. You know, we don't get everything," but it's like "Yeah, we get this guy." It's like and he has, you know, it's, it's not a brand, maybe. It's you know, my friend was just saying just now it's like the Apichatpong cinematic universe, you know where there is, you know, this [Ahn:] A lot of the same actors. [Chang:] a lot of the same you know, and, and, and recurring, you know, just the sort of themes, and, and, and motifs. But I'm curious what - yeah, what do you - it's... Do, you know, that first encounter with this - you know, you, you can be sort of put off maybe by, by the difficulty of it or you can, you know, and I think a lot of people maybe are, but then you can also just submit to it. Which kind of echoes I think the theme of the movie, which is very much, I think as you're saying, about desire and about sometimes the violence of desire. And it's like, "Am I going to master this or am I going to let it master me?" And, and so, yeah. [Ahn:] Yeah, it's, it's, it's so funny. Like, I was reading a little bit about that, that, you know, premiere and, and how people reacted to it. And like a lot of people thinking that like, you know, the - it's the filmmaker being like willfully difficult. And it's so not the case actually. It's like, you know, every choice made in here just feels - you know, I think what I love about watching the film, you know, is that it's both so, kind of, cerebral but then also so intensely emotional. And, and so to watch in that way, I think, is really, it is really rare, you know? And it's so like fascinating for me, like I - this is like also like very silly, but like and kind of reductive but like when Brendan asked me, you know, like to curate, I just was like, "Well, what's gay and Asian?" Right? Like, which is, like, super silly of me, but it like led me to a list. And, you know, it's so fascinating, just because I, I like to stay very plugged into kind of an Asian-American, like, cinema culture and, you know, within this like independent film scene. And there's so much conversation about kind of like Asian-American like male, you know, like, you know, about masculinity and... I'm like a little bit sick of this question of like, "Can Asian men be hot?" Right? And what I love about this film is that it's talking about these things - It's, you know, it has a gay story and it's these Asian people, these characters, but because it's made in Thailand by a Thai filmmaker with Thai people, like, it's, it's an uncom - it's uncomplicated by like this kind of whiteness, about like this American racial politics, right? And so it can be so elemental. And I'm so jealous of that in a way as a filmmaker. Like, I think that's so like it's, it's just about bodies and the land and like shitting and eating and gold and silver and caves. Like, I, it's just like, it's so spiritual, you know? In a way that like I'm just like, "Oh, as an Asian-American filmmaker, is that something that I'll ever be able to do?" [Chang:] There's a, there's a directness and kind of immediacy about it. And it's almost like, you know, when you, like say when you're making "Spa Night", you know, you feel like you have to work harder just to get, you know, to this point, where it's like and where already it feels as if the audience is coming to it as this sort of other experience. I mean, it is worth noting, you know, Apichatpong, to my understanding, is, you know, he is a figure who is, you know, especially the early part of his career was not fully understood, or you know, or embraced by, by, by - and his work is so different from, from what is typical of Thai cinema and he - but he's also sort of - he's very much a hybrid artist too. He synthesizes, you know, elements of Thai commercial and genre cinema and yet he's also, you know, he's studied filmmaking at the Art Institute of Chicago. So he's, he, his work sort of very much straddles like the art house and an art gallery sensibility. So, what I love about it, you know, everything you said but also he does hybridize all of these, these elements. And yet, there's something very inviting about the movie. And for me it's - and, and this is why the, the D-word, difficult, or the I-word, impenetrable, and a lot of these words that are sort of often ascribed to, you know, especially a lot of Asian cinema artists, not only, but, but, but particularly, I - it just it doesn't really - that - those words don't stick for me. And I think that there's, there is this sense when I'm watching this movie especially this, this second - was my second viewing, this idea that like magic is everywhere and that it's available and it's very accessible actually, if you just look at it and even, even though the second half of this movie... takes on this, you know, literally magical quality, but there's magic throughout the first half of it, too. And what is - yeah, what is your take on, you know, the, the bifurcated structure of the film and the, the two halves? I mean, are they two halves of the same story? Is it, is the second one like a dreamlike emanation from the first? I mean, I still have no idea [laughs] but, [Ahn:] What I like is, is that it does - I like that you say that it feels inviting because I agree. There's, there's this kind of allure to, to the storytelling. And, and there's for me, it feels a little bit just like um, like a... like a simplification almost. It's almost like, let's take what's here at the like in this first part of the story and get rid of everything except for, like, what really matters. Right? And so in that way, that, you know, it just feels like a clarification almost. At least for me. But, you know, there's also just like - I don't know, there just seems to be a weird logic that like just makes sense. Like the inner logic of the film is actually so beautiful. You know, even just this kind of silly thing where it's like, you know, after hand licking the guy goes into darkness, you know? And just that like, okay, like he becomes this tiger in the second half. You know, I remember like the first time watching it being like, you know, the soldier drives off on the, on the moped after and I'm like, "You forgot your friend. Like, like, you left him in the jungle." [laughs] You know? And I find that so weird but it totally makes sense because, guess what? He's gonna come back as a tiger in the second half. Yeah, like, the other thing that you, you said, like this question of, there's a - I kind of think that it also feels a little inviting because of its like immense humanity. You know, like each character. And it's funny, it's - there's, there's something that like I think in American cinema these characters or these moments might get emphasized in a way that are very digestible. You know, but the elements of this kind of storytelling and these characters are like, in here. Like, I love that like those two rich women, those two sisters, you know, like offer pot, like and like make them go to the mall, you know, it's like, it's a weird adventure that like I could see those characters in an American movie but they would be even more ridiculous in a way. Or even like, like I couldn't help but laugh, but when the mom is washing the pants and she takes out the note and I'm like that's, that feels like such an American thing, like in an American coming-of-age movie. And it's so funny that it's in here, but it's [Chang:] I know. [Ahn:] Yeah, I don't know there's something about it, like, that he's not trying to overemphasize anything, you know. [Chang:] Well and then even that, that scene in particular or when she goes and shows him that, you know, and you wonder is this - if you're looking through maybe American eyes or something, is this gonna be some kind of confrontation or like, you know? And, and it they kind of make a joke out of it though. Oh, laugh it off like, "this note is actually for you." It's very much not obvious... [Ahn:] And the puppy plays like a big part in that scene, right? Like everybody's paying attention to the puppy. Yeah, it's totally, yeah. [Chang:] I mean, do you find too - for me, there's this... In this interplay of sort of serenity and violence throughout the movie as well. And it's - I think it's interesting that it starts off with, you know, the discovery of this body. [Ahn:] Oh yeah. [Chang:] Which we never find out anything about. Or what killers, whatever, whatever. It's like this, this procedural or mystery that never comes to pass. Or when he's riding at night and there's this song playing and then you see the yeah, [Ahn:] the guys beating up the guy, yeah. [Chang:] So it's just to me, it's - there is this sort of irreducible complexity to the movie whereby, it's like moments of incredible humor and, and strange kind of deranged looking sort of smiles coexist with, you know, immense sadness. And even at the end when he says, "This is our song, and this is a happy song," and he's crying and it's an incredibly moving... It may not feel happy. But it's like he's looking back, and it is. It's this, yeah, this emotional complexity. [Ahn:] I mean that, that kind of duality. I mean, like that... you know, when he's riding past and you do see that like group beating up this guy and like they kind of go after him, even. Like, the group they like throw things. And, you know, like I think again like as a gay man kind of watching this movie reading the images in this movie, like it's hard to kind of not interpret like a certain kind of like, just like fear of being hurt or killed because you're gay, right? That like from the very first scene is kind of under there. But yeah, like the song is so bizarre and the emotions in that kind of last bit of that first act is like so, you know, like there's so much smiling, you know. And so yeah, it's a really, I mean, I think there's a certain kind of that complexity is what gives the film a certain kind of depth to it. And a, and just a wrestling with. You know, like I feel like this this isn't like something that goes down smooth but you kind of have to like roll it around in your mouth a bit, you know, to like kind of figure out, well, what is that flavor? And, and that kind of, for me is like a very engaging kind of viewing experience. Yeah. [Chang:] You know, I mean, I know you didn't - when I asked you earlier you didn't want this about you, but you know in Brendan's introduction, I completely agree with what he said about just the overpowering sensuality of the film. And into an almost like textural degree. And I, I do think we see this quality very much in "Spa Night" as well. Obviously, it's a very, fewer talking baboons, but you know, very much has, has that, that quality of the senses that and of desire as and something forbidden, but also something very, very, very seductive. Would you, what... I don't know, is this - what do Apichatpong's films mean to you as as an artist in your own right and has there been something that you've taken away and concretely applied to your own movies? [Ahn:] Yeah, I mean, I think that that sense of humanity is like so important to me. I mean, like, "Spa Night" is so kind of grounded in reality in a way that like, you know, "Tropical Maladies" kind of like flying by, you know, like doesn't fucking care, right? But when you are in, in kind of a... like a present space in the, in "Tropical Malady" it is like there's just, um, like a true sense of like these people feeling like they exist outside of the frame, you know, that they live on. And like, just that weird, like karaoke duet, you know, in the way that that's captured and not made a joke. You know, the real kind of intense like, you know, feeling of these people, to me, is, is like not seen often in cinema. Because I think people are so excited by and, and just always looking for, like, story. Like you're always kind of trying to find story. You're always trying to find the moral. And so for a film to kind of like so blatantly say like, "Ah, like what necessarily is this moral? But like see these people right like witness, witness behavior as opposed to psychology." You know, like for me, is something that I really wanted to do in, in "Spa Night." Was like it's not about what necessarily he's thinking like you're never gonna know actually. But you get - I'll, I will let you see what he's doing and you can interpret from his, you know, actions like what he might be thinking. But you know, I think it's, it's a, it's a slight kind of reprioritization of certain things. [Chang:] Yeah, to me, in this viewing - it played to me the first half in particular. It's, this is just a - we're just watching life as it unfolds, you know. I want to open it up to the audience. I'm sure there are questions. Does anyone have any? Yes. I'll call. Yes, right here. Sure. [Chang:] Oh sorry, there's a microphone. Thank you. [Man in audience:] I can definitely pull together the, the first and second half through the gaze of the desire and kind of the role play in a way. But I'm curious to know about the kind of other text or subtext of, you know, the soldier and kind of the military elements and the history of war in Thailand. And I'm just wondering like what you, I don't know, you didn't touch upon earlier, so I'm curious if, if you know any of that background or know what he was like trying to gauge? [Ahn:] I'm not super sure either, but I have to say, like, that, and I didn't remember this at all, but the very last few moments of the film where the voice-over, and it's like, "Soldier, I miss you." And then it gets the, the sound gets fuzzy as if it's like coming through a walkie-talkie. And like that, like, like that's insane! Like whatever choice that is, like that's insane. Like it's so, the, like, and, and then like the shot is the shot goes in reverse and the sound is in reverse for a brief moment. Like, it's so fascinating that like, you know, you're, you're so much in this kind of nature space, and then you're suddenly made so aware of like artifice and technology. I, I don't know too much about it. I don't know, Justin, do you know, like... [Chang:] I can only say this movie, I mean, I feel like, perhaps it's sort of, you know, it's kind of a complication of the sort of the hyper-masculine soldier, you know, that that is sort of being disassembled somewhat. I remember reading about Apichatpong's, you know, when the film came out people asked him very much about is this a political film and he had said something the effect of, a little bit evasive perhaps. saying, "Yes and no." I, I, like, he said, he said something to the effect of, "Maybe it will be in a few years. But not necessarily right now." And the funny thing is that I actually think his movies have gotten more concretely political in recent years like "Uncle Boonmee" has - Gosh, I remember, it's just been awhile since I've seen it but there are snapshots of, you know... Oh God. I don't wanna mischaracterize it but... there is a military presence in that film, in that movie, which won, I remember, won the Palme D'Or, shortly after a really violent week in Thailand. It was this surreal kind of mirroring of what was going on there. And then "Cemetery of Splendor" is also sort of a soldier story. So, I don't fully know as far as this film, but I know that he has become more politically engaged and has called out, you know, he said, I think he said at one point at a festival that Thailand is run by the Mafia or something. And so he was very, very critical of, of his country, so. [Ahn:] I mean the little bit that I know of, like, I mean, Apichatpong's intentions are like that like this was like his personal film. You know, it was kind of like the way that he talked about it in a way that like "Syndromes" was like for his parents, you know. But yeah, I mean it's, it would be curious to kind of like ask him that question now and see how he might talk about this politically. [Chang:] "Syndromes" is a great companion piece to this as well. He made it just, I think, two years later. And it is also a bifurcated narrative and so it is like this movie, and yet nothing like it at the same time. Any other questions? Yes, up here. [Man #2 in audience:] Not to take the spotlight off this amazing movie but I'm curious what else was on your short list for this evening? [Ahn:] [laughs] That's such a sneaky question. [laughter] For very different reasons: "The Wedding Banquet" by Ang Lee, because I have like a ve- like an intensely personal connection to that film. When I was eight years old my, my mom wanted to rent it because she was like this is a, this is a movie with Asian people that white people are watching. And so she was curious and so we rented it and then, like, she didn't know that it was a gay film, right? And then so I'm watching it with them like this kind of, you know, nascent gay boy being like, "Whoa, like this is insane," you know. And so that, that's just like another film that's stuck in my mind. But yeah, I mean it's not a very long list, unfortunately, you know, but, but I think what exists is like so interesting, and, and, and also like very sadly like not necessarily seen by a lot of, you know, I have a lot of like queer Asian and Asian-American friends who are just like, "We are never on-screen." And I'm like, "Oh, actually like we do exist in places you just - they're just not necessarily marketed and distributed widely, you know." So yeah. [Man #3 in audience:] Hi, I was curious about, kind of like, the folklore aspect of the movie and, I mean, if I was wondering if there was any background, like is he tying in real folk tales, or he's just making shit up? [laughter]… because I'm curious about maybe the mythology and is he creating his own mythology and how that maybe influences his filmmaking? [Chang:] Once again. [Chang and Ahn laugh] [Chang:] I, I do think he is drawing on act- you know, I believe it's, you know, it's, it's... I don't want to mischaracterize, but I think he is drawing on actual folklore and actual stories and, and actual texts, obviously very much transforming it in his own way. I wish I could speak more authoritatively on that. But, there's part of me that just resists. I think it's a great question. Part of me resists... demystifying the movie in, in some weird way. Not that it would. Maybe it would make it only more mysterious. But yeah. [Ahn:] Part of, part of me would think it'd be so badass if he did, you know, like, if he was just making shit up. But there's also, I mean, there's something about, like, in, in, in - I, I think I say that jokingly because he already kind of is in a way just by putting it on screen. There's there's a kind of like, an interpretation, there's a, there's a fucking with, you know. Like and some of it feels so - there's like kind of like puckishness to it all, you know, like, like the talking baboon and you know and, and even just that shot of like the tiger tail coming out of the woman's skirt, you know. Like, I think he's really letting himself and, and letting us be like, "Let's have fun with these things." You know, these texts are, like, malleable. They are, you know, subvertable. They are made fun of, you know. I don't feel like he has like... it's not... I don't think he, he thinks of folklore as like a, like a uninterpretable, like unchangeable text, right? And, and I think in that way he, you know, it for me, like, it really kind of reads as like a, just like an expansion of it, right? Like it just becomes part of it, in a way that I, like, I wish I could do. [laughs] [Man #4 in audience:] So I think, I thought it was really interesting. I mean, I guess the connection between the two parts where you had kind of the city, the soldier's kind of a city boy or a city man, and then you have a country boy. And there's like a sense that the younger young man from the country that he's more naïve maybe, that he's not as experienced in the ways of gay experiences. You know, that maybe he's more reserved and whatnot, and yet time and time again, you know, he's the one that's like more wild and more aggressive. And he is the one that's fearless, not the soldier. Like when they're in the cave, it's the soldier that wants to turn back. You know, when they, when he kisses his hand the soldier kind of does it hesitantly and like the young man kind of, like, it's like, "Whoa!" You know, in the, in the theater too, like he's really like super aggressive. And so it's really kind of an inversion because like often like there's a perception of like, oh the, in a kind of older/younger gay relationship. Like, there's like an assumed dominance of like, you know, of one side. And here like there's kind of a, a switch on that. And then, you know, it's like that wild si- I don't know. There's like that... I don't know. And I think it's really interesting. [Ahn:] That, um, I actually, I do wonder if like the younger character is actually younger. Because I, because there... [Man #4:] He certainly is younger. [Ahn:] He kind of looks that way, right? But there is like mention of him being in the military before, right? Because of this like photograph, when he's like in... And like and so I wonder it's like, "Oh, was he in military service before?" You know, and now he's out of it. But, like, and this is another thing that I wonder about, the kind of film's potential, like political, I wouldn't say statements but like musings is like the - He's kind of illiterate, right? Like, he's, he, he has trouble writing and reading, right? And that to me, I wonder like "what's going on there?" But there is this kind of, like a, you know, power dynamic definitely. And that kind of feels - I do th- it's a little bit this question of just even how you watch this. It's like, you know, is this someone that you - is this a film that you try and dominate or do you let it kind of come over you? There's this kind of push and pull constantly. [Chang:] And, you know, in the first half it, it almost feels like, in the first half, I mean the, the perspective of the movie or the time, the amount of screen time is pretty equal, I think. In the second one, it is more we are walking through this, through the soldier's eyes. And it is very much, and it is the younger, the country boy, who becomes the tiger. And so, in a way, I very much like your, your reading of that. There's also this weird sense, I can't almost point to evidence. Like, I'm trying to think, this just kept occurring to me. It felt like sometimes they're switching places. It feel- I don't know and maybe I'm just taking that from Apichatpong's - his sort of - the, the transmigration of souls is which is this thing that conceptually I can't, I can't really completely get my mind around but is very much a thing in his movies. But, I don't know. It's, yeah. [Ahn:] Well, just like who, who we're like calling the younger guy like putting on the soldier's uniform at the shoe store. You know, like at first glance, I'm just like "Oh, that's the soldier." And then you're like, "Oh wait. No, it's not." He's, he's playing dress-up, you know. Yeah. [Chang:] Or that pan where like he's, I think it's the younger one looking in this direction and then the camera moves to this way and then he's looking back. And then, it moves back and the soldier's there. And it's this - yeah, it's... [Ahn:] Oh right. Yeah, it's like, is it on the bed? [Chang:] Well, that too! [Ahn:] Then there's on the bed. [Chang:] That's another instance, but I wasn't even thinking the second half but no in the first, you know, obviously where it's like where you're like whose house is this even? [Ahn:] Yeah, yeah. [Man #5 in audience:] I was curious, for Justin, you saw this at a time when I guess you had your eye on international film festival, arthouse scene. I'm kind of curious about this film in relationship to, I guess the idea of slow cinema that was, you know, coming about at that time, and putting, you know, filmmakers from countries, that weren't a major - I guess weren't star attractions on the festival circuit, on the map. And I know like there was a lot of discussion about this as a punishing form of cinema, an extreme form of cinema. But I never really wondered, I guess, I never really knew of it as a queer space as well, except in Apichatpong's films. I'm curious when people were talking about this film at the time. Were they, you know, I guess was the... the, the divisiveness about it focused mostly on this idea of it as a slow, or challenging, sit, you know, sit? Or was it like was there a discussion of its like queer components as well? [Chang:] Yeah, I, I - that's, that's a very good question. I can't, you know, and I remember reading 'cause and I, I wasn't at Cannes that year and, you know, I started going later and so I was just reading about it and so I wasn't, you know, super engaged in the discourse around the movie on its first reception. And, and I don't know. I, I'd like to think that it wasn't, oh, because this is a queer love story that that had something to do with, you know, why it was a polarizing or why it was widely hated. I do think it was - I, I think your, your question about, you know, slow cinema as a queer space is a really fascinating one. And I wish there were more, there was more evidence of that. This is not a slow movie to me. It's like, it's, it's funny. And I have a very mixed relationship with the term "slow cinema", which I love and hate kind of equally. I think it's a convenient term to refer to, you know, this aesthetic that we […] whether it's Bela Tarr or Hou Hsiao-hsien and you know, and I know Hou Hsiao-hsien's, you know, has had an influence on, on Apichatpong. But I think it's deceptive too. And I think maybe it is just something when we were first encountering the movie and we first see it, it just so frustrates our usual sense of rhythm that we interpret that as slow. This was my second time seeing the movie and even though it was revelatory in a way that my first viewing was, was just as revelatory, I would say. I was - I felt completely alive. I was completely alert to it and you know, he's not just planting the camera there for 20 minutes while, a sn- you know, a snake slithers by. It's like, it's not, you know, it's really, you know, it's like I think that every cut is actually ve- you know, the cutting of the movie, like there's a kineticism to it. And, and, so yeah. I think it's interesting though. I think that, you know, certainly there are elements of slow cinema that, you know, that govern his aesthetic. But I think it's misleading and, and really misguided to sort of just lump it. I think it's a very convenient put-down of a lot of really interesting and diverse kinds of movies. [Ahn:] Yeah, it, it like, the only other thing I might kind of mention, is kind of, in thinking about this, even just the, the, the sound mix, like the level of the dialogue being down a bit and, and like realizing that like again, like, there is this like preoccupation, like, kind of overemphasization of, like, dialogue in American films. You know, and I kind of love that like all the dialogue in this movie is like just a touch quiet. And it just feels like part of the space. Like it's not, like the conversations aren't - or the scenes aren't about the words but they're about how these words are spoken here. And that to me is like so insanely cool. And, and, and so, you know, I think in that way like it doesn't necessarily have this like Aaron Sorkin-y like chu-chu-chu-chu like pace that we're so used to in a way. But yeah, like again, like it's so interesting. It's kind of like if you're - if you stop trying to read it in a way that we're kind of super used to, it becomes engaging in a whole nother way, in like a really beautiful way. [Chang:] I think that's all the time we have. But thank you so much for your great questions and I hope you enjoyed the film. And thank you, Andrew. This has a been great […]. Thank you. [Ahn:] Thank you, Justin. [audience applause]