Liberating Hollywood: Women Directors | Lynne Littman

[K. J. Relph] My name is K. J. Relph. I am a programmer with the Archive. And it's my pleasure to welcome you tonight for, in our ongoing series, "Liberating Hollywood." Tonight we'll be seeing, 'Number Our Days," and "Testament," both by the incredible Lynne Littman who is here with us tonight. [Applause] Um, I should mention that we are very lucky to get a preserved 16 millimeter print of, "Number Our Days," from the Academy Film Archive. And the 35 millimeter print of, "Testament," is from the Lynne Littman collection, which she claims, she wasn't aware existed, [laughing] um, at the Academy Film Archive. Um, so, we're so thrilled to see all of you here tonight. Especially on a rainy night. I know it's really hard to, make an excuse to leave the house. But this is a great excuse, to leave the house and come, um, watch two incredible films together. So, just a note about the program for tonight. We'll be watching the films back-to-back. Um, and then, with no break in between. And then Lynne and I will come on stage and talk a little bit about both of them,  and, ah, her career after, ah, after we screen, "Testament." Um, so, I also wanted to mention that tomorrow night, we'll be screening a 35 millimeter, archival print of, Anne Bancroft's, "Fatso." And that's a very, it's a very rare screening. It's very rare that Fox lets a 35 millimeter print out of their vaults. So we're very lucky to, have that and we'll be joined by Jonathan Sanger. Um, to discuss a little bit about the, the history of the film and his experience knowing and working with, Miss Bancroft. So, thank you so much again for coming out tonight and the ooccasion for this series, um, is the publication of a new book, that was, that just came out in December Twenty Eighteen, available from Rutgers University Press, written by Maya Montanez Smukler. So, I'd like to ask Maya to join us, up on the stage to talk a little bit about the book and the films that you're here to see tonight. Maya. [Applause] [Maya Montanez Smukler] Thank you, K. J. You worked so hard putting this series together. So something that we, have talked about in, um, the last couple of nights of, ah, "Liberating Hollywood," and something that K. J. and I, had really worked on as we put together this series is, the theme, which is this intersection in the 1970s between the feminist movement, and Hollywood, American cinema,  Independent cinema, at that time. And what that intersection, and sometimes a collision. How that impacted, the small but growing number of women who were directing feature films. And so there is this, point, in this series that is organized around gender, for sure. And of course, issues of discrimination and sexism, is, something that, we talk about in this series and certainly is one of the main three lines in my book. But what is almost more important is that the, filmmakers that we are profiling, that we are showcasing, in these series are individual artists. And while they are, they have this commonality that they're women. They are all individual filmmakers with unique visions that they bring to their work. And so, tonight, we are so pleased to have Lynne here. And for me personally, it means so much that we can screen these films, [Clears throat] and that Lynne is here to talk with us. When I first started on this project, I was a doctoral student at UCLA, ah, Film Studies Program. And I, was able to contact Lynne and ask her for an interview. And she was  so gracious, this is like, 2011. A long time that this project has been, um, cooking. And she was just fabulous. And she gathered up, um, several of her colleagues, who had organized in the late Seventies and, early Eighties at the Directors Guild, and who, these six women radicalized the Directors Guild for the first time. And she helped put together, an epic night of eight hours at her fabulous house. And, really opened up for me, this history. And these first-person accounts of her and her colleagues and what their experiences were, in the film industry in the Seventies and Eighties. And personally, as artists, as filmmakers, their interests, and their passions. And their ambitions. And their drive to do the work, um, that they really, felt they deserved the opportunity to pursue. And that just changed everything for me as a graduate student, to be able to be here now with you all, to celebrate this occasion. So, I am, so grateful for tonight and that Lynne is here. Lynne's work is, is really representative of, some interesting sort of, ah, combinations, and opportunities that are happening in the Seventies. And then with, "Testament," which was, um, made in the early Eighties, that continued, that Lynne has a career at KCET, making, do you call them documentaries or more like, ah, what do you call it, Lynne? Um, TV magazine shows. Say it again. [Littman, off mic, unintelligible] Film [?] Okay, Film [?] on KCET in the Seventies. And, so that is, um, we can see the connection then with the documentary, with her short documentary, that will also screen tonight. But that, she also then, was able to expand her creative vision and her interest, to make a feature film with, "Testament." And that's really exciting for us to be able to see this, um, very innovative trajectory of her professional and her creative career, with the short documentary and then this very epic, iconic, feature film. So, thank you all for coming. And please stay for the Q&A with K. J. and Lynne. And enjoy. [Applause] [Lynne Littman] Glad I'm wearing black. [Laughter] [Relth] Do you want to tell everyone what you said your nickname was earlier? When you were talking earlier? [Littman] The Death Queen. [Laughter] [Relth] But you, you had just seen, "Testament," pretty recently, right? Like a couple, [Littman] Yeah, but somehow it wasn't, it didn't, I don't know whether it's because so many of my friends are here. [Littman] That, um. [Littman] Um. [Littman] My goodness, what a crazy person I am. [Relth laughs] [Littman] But the terrible thing is, that this, that this is not out of date. [Littman] That's what's so awful about it. [Relph] Yeah, it was specifically, [Littman] Not out of date. [Littman] That all the phones would go off. All our little things would go away. [Littman] And then we'd just be left with ourselves and each other. [Littman] It's a terrible film. I mean, [Littman] anyway, sorry. [Laughter] [Relth, laughing] What? A terrible film, how? [Relth] In how your feelings were, [Littman] It's relentless. It's relentless. I mean, [Littman] after a while, I just thought, shit, they're all gonna die. And they did. [Littman] It was very hard to sell. [Laughter] [Relth] But, I was also thinking this isn't just a Lynne Littman double feature, it's also a, [Relph] a Myerhoff double feature. Because she worked with you on both projects. Do you want to talk a little bit about, [Relth] meeting her? I'd like to talk about the first film we watched too, a little bit, so, [Littman] That was, I really was happy. I hadn't seen the old Jews in a very long time. [Littman] And they really, I love them. I just love them. [Littman] Um. [Littman] Barbara and I met at a, a, at a woman's conference. [Littman] Um. [Littman] She had written, [Littman] She had been studying these, the old people, [Littman] And she came from a rather, she came from Chicago. [Littman] And a completely different background then I came from, which was New York and the Bronx. [Littman] And speaking Yiddish. And so she was, [Littman] a brilliant scholar, [Littman] of a group of people whom she hadn't really lived among. She was, of course, she was Jewish but it was a different kind of, [Littman] upbringing that she had. And I came from, she, in other words, she came, [Littman] with all the knowledge and I came speaking Yiddish. [Littman] So, um, we were a wonderful, we were a wonderful, [Littman] team. We adored each other. We respected each other. And we never crossed boundaries. [Littman] She did one, [Littman] She did one, [Littman] she did, she did the thinking, and I did the doing. I mean, I don't mean that. No, but you know.  We just would, we were perfectly complimentary. [Littman] Um, of course, she never got to be an old Jewish lady. She died at forty nine. [Littman] And I made a film about her last work. [Littman] Which she did, which was in the, in the Orthodox community on Fairfax. I didn't want to go back to Jews. I had done, "Testament." [Littman] And I sort of felt like I'd had, I'd had enough Jews. But, it was her work. [Littman] And, and I, it wasn't that I owed it to her. I owed it, I owed it to her. I mean, [Littman] I loved her. And, um, [Littman] and, um, I only make sad films. And I'm kind of a funny person. [Laughter] [Relth] You, you two make beautiful collaborators. [Littman] Yeah, we were wonderful.  She, she really helped me think, think through. I would, I would give her an instance and she'd give me the myth, [Littman] behind it. She, she, she just was, she was educated in a way that I will never be. Um, and she, her mind, [Littman] She just made wonderful human, as well as intellectual connections. [Littman] And that, that's a, that's  a gift. She was a gift. [Relth] The film is so beautiful and won an Oscar for Best Documentary. [Littman] Yeah, yeah. [Relth] I think we mentioned that before, but really it's, [Applause] [Littman] It's a sweet film. I haven't seen it, I haven't seen it in like thirty years. [Relth] It's hard to see. [Relth] Ah, the first time I'm seeing it is tonight, honestly. I just, [Littman] It sort of gets wiped out for the next one, but. [Laughter] [Relth] But, you did, um, speaking of, um, Barbara, you did, [Relth] continue a relationship with her until she passed and so, [Relth] when you were, I want to talk about the genesis of, [Relth] Testament also. But you brought her in to work on that as well. [Littman] I brought her in to think it through with me. And to figure out why, why it was worth, why, I mean, the story was a three page story, [Littman] that had been printed in, [Littman] I forget, it was a Catholic journal. [Littman] And then, "MS.," picked it up and and reprinted it and I read it there. [Littman] It was an extraordinary three page story. It had almost everything in it that the film does, [Littman] in three pages. [Littman] Which either means that she was enormously skillful, or I was just sloppy, and, [Laughter] [Littman] and what, whatever, um, [Littman] but, I, ah, you know, it was a shocking story. It did, it didn't, it, it  shocked you. [Littman] And it was at the stage when we were, [Littman] politically at a, at a very frightening point, in terms of whether we were gonna be involved in a nuclear, [Littman] war of any kind. And, um, and I had two sons. [Littman] And, [Littman] one was still in nurse, one was in nursery school and I remember having a nightmare, of how I would get to him. [Littman] And I remember thinking, I would walk across the tops of cars, [Littman] um, to the nursery school. [Littman] Um, so, it was a nightmare. It was a nightmare for Carol Amen, who wrote the story. John Young, [Littman] I think did, did an extraordinary job. He did a wonderful script. I hadn't, I knew nothing about scripts. I had never, [Littman] worked with. [Littman] Um. [Relth] He's a novelist too. [Littman] I, I, I, he's, he's an, I didn't know that. Yes, I picked him because, not because of any of this. He'd written many, many screenplays. [Littman] And movie, television movies. [Littman] But, he wrote this book called, "The Weather Tomorrow." [Littman] And in it, [Littman] I mean, he wrote women, he wrote women, beautifully. [Littman] And, um. [LIttman] That's why. And he was wonderful. He was it. [Littman] We were all assholes. But he was, [Relph laughs] [Littman] Some were more difficult than others. Um. [Littman] Um, the Director of Photography, Stevie Poster, is here. [Littman] And what, I don't know where you're sitting Stevie, but what a beautiful, what a beautiful, [Applause] [Littman, over applause] Thank you. Thank you. [Steve Poster, unintelligible] [Relth] That shoot was only twenty one days? Is that right? [Littman] The shoot was twenty four, I think. [Steve Poster, unintelligible] [Littman] Yeah, it was perfect for the mood. [Relph laughs] [Littman laughs] It just was one more, one more factor. [Littman] Um, yes, it rained constantly. [Littman] Um. [Relph] And, so the the shift, because this was your first, [Relph] narrative feature, that you were directing. You'd worked in documentary and in television before that. [Relph] And, [Relph] you found this story,  you were, [Relph] not obsessed by it, but so interested in turning it into something. And so, [Relph] what what was  that transition in, [Relph] working like. Or was it much of a transition? [Littman] Television where I worked was public television. Which was extremely, [Littman] Women were allowed to work. [Littman] There were images of women who were executives who were producers who were doing it. [Littman] Um, and public television, in that sense, [Littman] was a gift. [Littman] Um, there was no money. Which is probably, [Littman] why they were, [Littman] able to, [laughs] why they were able to employ women. Um, but, um, [Littman] but it was, I, I had, I had a gifted, I had a gifted work experience. Ah, my whole, my whole, [Littman] my whole life, I've, I never was told I couldn't do anything. [Littman] And the things that I was, [Littman] that I wanted to do. I don't want to say, I was allowed to do, but I was allowed to do. [Littman] And the difference between, [Littman] really being able to do, what, what speaks, what comes from inside you. [Littman] Um, as opposed to getting handed something to do. Is the most enormous difference in the world. I mean, [Littman] even if it's, even if there's, there are obstacles along the way, you're doing what you, what you love. And that's, [Littman] that's an enormous, that's an enormous gift. [Littman] Um, that's an enormous rare gift. [Littman] And probably more rare for women, [Littman] perhaps, then I'm, I'm sure then, for fellows, but it's tough. [Littman] But, it's, I don't know why I had the lucky experience that I did. [Littman] And I took advantage of it. And, um, [Littman] it's probably because there was no money. Which eliminates the possibility, [Littman] for, for, you know, for castles in Spain. [Littman] Um, and, um, [Littman] and therefore changes that whole power dynamic. [Littman] If nobody is becoming, [Littman] ridiculously wealthy and powerful, then you play together. [Littman] Then, then you play together. And, and I, and, and that, that's the working experience I've had. [Littman] So, it's been very lucky. [Littman] Um, [Littman] and isn't Jane wonderful? Wasn't she wonderful? [Over applause] Isn't she amazing? [Relth] Nominated for an Oscar for her performance and a Golden Globe. [Littman] Yes. [Relth] Yes. She's incredible. [Relth] And so the the film did start off as a television production, yeah, for American Playhouse. [Littman, talking over] It was made for Public Television for something called American Playhouse. [Littman] Um, the head of which, the head of which is a wonderful man named, Lindsey Law. [Littman] Who taught me what a, [Littman] what a, what a really good executive is. [Littman] And that's somebody who comes around, [Littman] and makes life better. [Laughter] [Littman] Um, and that's, that's almost as rare, as being a gifted director. [Littman] Perhaps more rare, because there were more of them. [Littman] But, um, [Littman] that was, that was it. [Littman] I mean, James Horner's score, [Littman] knocked me out, knocked me out. What a gorgeous piece of music. [Relth] Do you remember how he got involved? [Littman] I was, I was introduced to him by, [Littman] this magical man named  Joel Sill, who was the Music Supervisor. Who, [Littman] has been doing music in Hollywood for movies for, [Littman] almost for forty, fifty, thirty years, whatever. [Littman] And, um, we went to lunch and he had, I remember, he had a tuna fish sandwich. [Littman] And, [Relth] James Horner. [Littman] James Horner and I said something about my budget. [Littman] My budget was ten thousand dollars for a score. [Littman] And, and, and that was enormous for me. [Littman] And he said yes. [Littman] And then finished the tuna fish sandwich. And, [Laughter] [Littman] And then the next time I saw him, [Littman] I mean, the music part of putting music to films, which probably most of you know, [Littman] is you, I felt and I'm, I, [Littman] I am, I have a music background. [Littman] It's the least control, [Littman] moment of anything, of anything, of anything, because how do you, [Littman] tell somebody what  to create. [Littman] How do you, how do you, [Littman] say that, [Littman] note goes there. [Laughs] [Littman] but he, that's what he, I mean, [Littman] It, it was wonderful. Again, another, an amazing, [Littman] I had, I can't, I, I can't call it a collaboration. But boy  was he, [Littman] a gift. Heh! [Relth] There's also so much of the film that doesn't have a score that's just, [Relth] everyday, like, living and, but then, when it finally comes back at the end, it's, it has such an impact. Yeah. [Littman] Um. [Littman] I don't know what to say. Say something to me. [Relth] Oh, oh yeah. Um, well, I was gonna ask a little bit too, about, um, I mean, [Relth] part of the book, the part of the book that, um, where you have so much focus in, in, um, [Relth] Mayas book. Is really about your activism work. And about your work in really mobilizing, [Littman] About which work? [Relth] Oh, about your work in kind of mobilizing the DGA. [Littman] Oh. [Relth] And so, up until maybe, [Relth] the early Seventies, the DGA was kind of sitting out, the Directors Guild of America was sitting out of the, [Relth] kind of politicized conversation about equity and parity. And SAG was a little bit more advanced and the WGA. But, [Relth] the Directors Guild was kind of not participating in this conversation. But, [Littman] Well, it was pretty much of an old boys club. Um, and that's not to say that, [Littman] directing is easy. [Littman] Or getting films made it was easy for anybody. It wasn't. [Littman] But, um, despite my own good fortune, in terms of not being stopped, [Littman] I, I think, [Littman] a lot of it had to do with the fact that I never wanted to do episodic television. [Littman] Um. I, I, I felt that, [Littman] that it was a great skill. There was no question. But that, [Littman] one was replaceable. [Littman] And that was unbearable for me, in terms of the amount of  energy and, [Littman] stuff that it takes, [Littman] to work on a set. I couldn't bear the fact that the job, [Littman] of episodic television, [Littman] was to, was to as best as possible, [Littman] keep doing what had been set up, [Littman] as a style and a way of working. Um. [Littman] But that was, [Littman] that is still the area that, where women can, [Littman] make a living, [Littman] a good living and work. [Littman] And, and it's also measurable. So, in terms of taking on a political fight. [Littman] Um, which I did with, [Littman] with five other, [Littman] colleagues who were directors at the Directors Guild. [Littman] It was a measurable thing. [Littman] And at that point, the Equal Opportunities, the, [Littman] EEOC, Equal Employment Opportunities Commission, [Littman] was in full force. There was a backing for the, there had been a, [Littman] It was the height of the women's movement. We had support. Um. [Littman] And there was something magical, that was their premise which was called goals and timetables. [Littman] Which was, [Littman] you say you wanna, you say you want to be a good guy. [Littman] These are the numbers of, these are the numbers of women we want you to hire by this period of time. [Littman] And therefore, [Littman] people could be accountable as opposed to just having good thoughts. [LIttman] And, [Littman] we took on, we, we, we were not, [Littman] part of the Directors Guild. Although we were all members, we weren't, [Littman] as they are, as the women  there are now, [Littman] a committee, a very, [Littman] well supported, [Littman] cooperative. Good, I don't think they're good. [Laughter] [Littman] But they're not, they're not there to burn the house down. [Littman] And, um, and we were. [Littman] And, um, and we did, we did some good. [Littman] We did some good. We made a lot of noise.  And, and I think made people aware, [Littman] of the inequity in terms of women directing. [Littman] And at that point we had the support of the Guild. [Littman] Of an amazing man named Michael Franklin. [Littman] Who supported what we were doing. Which was, he was an old union guy and the Directors Guild is after all a union. [Littman] And it's supposed to do it's stuff. I mean, for anybody who remembered what unions were. Um, um, [Littman] so, we had, we had a friend in court. [Littman] But we were definitely not, [Littman] of the Guild. [Littman] Um. [Littman] We didn't manage goals and timetables and still haven't. [Relth] Yeah, there's, I mean, just last year, there was this push for, um, 50/50 by 2020. [Relth] Right, I mean, we're still talking about it. It's still, it, [Relth] We're still not there. [Littman] Right. [Littman] Well, that's true of many things. [Littman] Um, yes. [Littman] I don't, I don't, until they, until there's consequence, until there's goals and timetables and consequence. It won't happen. [Littman] I mean, because when a woman gets hired, she's taking a job away from a guy. So, [Littman] it's just as simple as that. And right now. [Littman] And then that's, that's huge. [Littman] So, there's a fight. [Littman] Um. [Littman] It's not about ability. [Littman] It's about finance. [Littman] And, also, when you get to work, you get better at working. So, it is in that sense, [Littman] about ability. The tragedy of, of, un, un, [Littman] unequal employment, [Littman] is that you don't, women, women haven't had the opportunity to get really good, [Littman] at what they do, because they don't get to do it a lot. [Relph] Mm, hmm. [Littman] And it's practice, practice, practice. That's sort of old-fashioned, but it's, [Relph] I think that's kind of the narrative that we're seeing with this whole series. Especially with, you know, Joan Tewkesbury or Jane Wagner. [Relth] They were kind of held up as these, [Relth] tokens, in a way, or these  examples. And they were given a chance. [Relth] And when that chance didn't, [Relth] go the way that they wanted that, that the studio, or the money wanted it to. [Relth] That was your only chance. [Littman] Right. You know, where as someone like, I don't want to name names, but, [Relth] where as, there, there are other directors who can make mistakes and have flops and still get second, third, fifth chances. [Littman] Also, you learn how to have courage. [Littman] I mean, you start out with it but you have to, [Littman] you learn how to have the courage too. [Littman] It's, it really is, a kind of, [Littman] making a film, [Littman] for me anyway, [Littman] it is a kind of going to war. [Littman] Although I've never, [Littman] been in the army, but, [Littman] you, you, [Littman] you have to go in, [Littman] naked and dressed in armor. [Littman] At the same time. So, it's, it's a very demanding. [Littman] Demanding, demanding, um, [Littman] occupation. Um. [Littman] I, I, I love it. [Laughter] [Relth] Well, I want to turn to the audience, because I know that there must be some questions out there. [Relth] Um, I heard somebody, [Littman] Ask me something. [Relth] Yeah. Back there, we have a microphone coming too, if you'll wait just. [Littman, unintelligible] [Audience member, low] What year was the film made? [Audience member] Oh, can you hear me? [Littman] Mm,hmm. [Audience member] What year was the film made? [Littman] It was made in '83. [Audience member] So, we're 30 years out. [Audience member] And we're right back where this film starts. [Littman]  That's, [?] [Littman] Yeah. [Audience member] I can't believe how timely it seemed, [Audience member] to me with, you know, with all these, [Audience member] what do you call them, um, agreements, treat, [Audience member] We have had an agreement for over thirty years with the Russians, [Audience member] about missiles and building, you know, [Audience member] not a restriction on nuclear war, [Audience member] and now it's just falling apart before our eyes. [Audience member] And here you come with this thirty year old film. [Audience member] and it's Twenty Nineteen, and it might as well be, [Audience member] 1983. [Littman] That's what's so awful. [Audience member] I know. [Relth] Lynne, was was part of this film, making this film for you, outside of the very personal story, was part of it about activism or about, [Relth] like, were you involved in any sort of, like, disarmament movement? [Littman] No, I knew nothing about nuclear, nuclear stuff. I mean, I got it, I got somewhat educated but it was not, [Littman] It, this was a story about loss for me. I mean, this is a story about human loss. And what must not, [Littman] what must not be experienced by, by civil, is that what must not be experienced. [Littman] Um, its loss of, loss of every, loss of love, loss of everything. [Littman] And, and it's funny to have approached it from, [Littman] it's not funny to approach it from the negative, but I guess that's  who I am. [Laughs] [Littman] Um. [Littman] It's unfath, it's unthinkable that, that I, I doubt that the President, because I don't know, [Littman] that he would be moved by family. I mean there's no, [Littman] no area where one can touch him. [Littman] Except perhaps financially, that would make any difference. So, [Littman] it would have probably no effect. Um. [Littman] But it, it certainly felt, [Littman] it, we, we, we, [Littman] purposefully, we didn't have the money to do any special effects, nor would I want to. The, the big challenge that, that we had, [Littman] was, was getting, was making a white out. I had to run back and forth, [Littman] to somebody named, Minkler who I think is still a very famous now, [Littman] graphics person. In order to, [Littman] get the screen to go completely white. [Littman] Um, it was somehow impossible. I don't know what the problem was, but, [Littman] that was our big effect. [Littman] And, um. [Relth] That was done afterward, not in camera, that wasn't, [Littman] No, no, that was in post-production. [Audience member, unintelligible] [Littman] It was? [Audience member] Yeah, we did it on set. [Littman] Oh, [Unintelligible] [Littman] Wow! [Unintelligible] [Littman] Hmm. [Littman] Thank you! [Laughs] [Littman] At any rate, it worked. I mean, I think. [Littman] Um, but, I don't know why it was, it was such a, [Littman] big deal. But we, I wasn't interested in special effects at all, um. [Littman] You know, the big thing was getting the water brown and in the sink, [Littman] when she lifts Scottie up. [Littman] How do we start out with clean water and get it to be brown water when she lifts him up in one shot. [Littman] I think we pumped something up from. Anyway. [Littman] Um, that was our big effect. [Relth] That's the scene that stays with me. [Littman] The little boy? [Relth] Yeah, I can't forget that scene. [Relth] It's so, and then with the towel. [Littman] Yeah. [Relth] You know, she picks him up. Yeah. [Relth] Are there other questions from the audience? Ah, yeah, in the back. With the hat. [Relth] You can wait for the microphone. [Audience member] Obviously compelling. [Audience member] And wonderfully done. [Audience member] And it's a film that would never be made today. I'm sure of that. [Audience member] And I just had an idea of, an idea about the treatment of the flashbacks. Did you, [Audience member] go into the script knowing you'll do the other side, of the of the happy life, [Audience member] and do the flashbacks on set, or was that in post? [Littman] It was the first thing we shot because it was the only thing that I knew how to do. [Littman] I mean, it was documentaries. I shot little documentaries. First day, I think we started out shooting that. [Relth] On the first day. [Littman] Because, because I knew how to do that. [Littman, laughing] I wasn't sure I knew how to do, [Littman] any of the other part. But I knew how to do that. [Littman] Um, so, it made me  feel safe. [Littman] And it was, [Littman] it, it was breathable. [Littman] Um. [Littman] So, yes, I, I, yes, I, I knew I was going to use it. It, I don't, it wasn't, I don't, it wasn't in the original story. Um. [Relth] Yeah, right down here in the front. [Relth] You can wait for the microphone, please. [Audience member] Yeah, if you can tell us the name and a little more about the follow-up film you did with Barbara Meyerhoff, that you just mentioned [Littman] Oh, um, the film that I did about, following, shortly following Barbara's death was called, "In Her Own Time." [Littman] And, um, it really is about Orth, the, the Orthodox Jewish community, [Littman] in the Fairfax area, [Littman] really fell in love with her. [Littman] And, and were aware that she was dying. [Littman] And, [Littman] and open, opened up all the rituals for, [Littman] for our film. I mean we filmed in a, in a, [Littman] in a mikveh. Which is a bath. [Littman] A religious bath ceremony. Everybody, um,they'd loved her. [Littman] And, the thing about documentaries that I and, and, and [Littman] that, that happened to me. Is that I got very, [Littman] I got pretty good at getting into people's, [Littman] kishkes. Into their souls. Into their, into their hearts. [Littman] And, and the better I got at it, the more responsible I got to feel. [Littman] And that got to feel, um, [Littman] That's, that's what, [Littman] the, [Littman] the gifts that they gave me became a burden. [Littman] Because I was walking in and out of their lives. [Littman] And, [Littman] and it got, and sometimes I  got to, [Littman] wish I knew that they, it would go differently. And the minute I found myself wanting to push their real lives around, I thought, [Littman] okay, this is time, [Littman] this is time to go to fiction. To go, to leave real people alone. [Littman] And it was because I got into their hearts and they gave me their stuff. [Littman] Um, it was a, was a funny, [Littman] burden. [Littman] Terrible, wonderful, terrible, wonderful. [Relth] Yeah, I mean, responsibility. Right? [Littman] Yeah, they don't disappear. I mean, I'll even go on and they, [Littman] stayed in touch with me and after a while it got impossible. [Littman] It, it got impossible. I, [Littman] that's so funny to say. I mean, it's a luxury. But it was, [Littman] anyway. [Relth] Did you have a screening of, "Number Our Days," for the community? [Littman] Oh, yeah. Yeah. [Littman] But they, they, they would, they were not happy that they didn't pick up the Oscar. [Littman] I had all, I had, I had a real, I mean, they were, they were really, [Littman] they were sort of glad about it but, "Why weren't they there?" and they were right. [Laughter]  [Littman] Um. [Littman] You know, they were tough. Bertha, [Littman] the wonderful Bertha. Who walks along, [Littman] with Mi, and sits with Mike. She was the roughest. [Littman] She never forgave me. [Littman] And I felt like she, the day before I got married. [Littman] Um, I had a car accident. And I was on my way down to the Israel Evans Center. [Littman] And I felt like they cursed me. [Laughs] [Littman] I mean, they're, they're powerful, they were powerful. And, and they were powerful. [Littman] They were wonderful. [Relph] More questions from the audience? Um, yeah. Um, yeah. [Littman] Okay. [Relth] Sorry, next to Sam. [Littman] I don't think, you think people need a microphone. [Audience member] Hi Lynne. [Littman] Hi, honey. [Audience member] Um, [Littman] This is very nice, with my friends here. [Audience member] So, I'm earth shatteringly, [Audience member] blown away. This is my first time watching both, but particularly the second. I can't, oh, I can't even find the language right now. [Audience member] I'm in a non, almost a nonverbal zone. [Audience member] But, can you say a little bit about directing the children 'cause I was whoa, [Audience member] blown away. How did you talk to them about what this movie was about? [Relth] I'm sorry, [Littman] They do it. [Littman] Kids. [Littman] I mean, I've also had ghastly experience, one ghastly experience with a child. I mean, [Littman] Lukas was magic. Lukas, Lukas, Lukas, [Littman] Lukas was magic. He was six. [Littman] Um, he wasn't, he was a baby, um. [Littman] I said to him, [Littman] your dad has, has, has been killed. Your dad has been, is not going to come back. [Littman] He's, he's in, he, he, couldn't come back from San Francisco. [Littman] And he said to me, [Littman] "I know there was a nuclear bomb." [Littman] I mean, he was way ahead of me. The thing is that they're, that kids are [?]. You know, kids are amazing. The school play, they just did it. [Littman] I mean, there's nothing you can tell them, if they're lousy and hammy and looking at the camera. [Littman] You just get, you have to get rid of them. They're not gonna get better. [Littman] So, when they're wonderful, they're wonderful. Um, um, [Relth] You're giving them a lot of credit, but I want to give you some credit. [Applause] [Littman, laughs] Sorry. [Laughter] [Relth] There was a question in the front here. [Unintelligible] [Littman] Oh, good. [Audience member, unintelligible] out of, [Audience member] and how could you possibly, [Littman] Yeah. [Littman] They were amazing. They were amazing. Roxana was amazing. The girl, the little, she was, I couldn't get over it. And Rossi was wonderful. [Littman] I mean, I had models, I had these two sons. Ha. [Littman] And the role of Alex's toys, every single super guy is in there. [Littman] Every guy that he fed, I'd watch, you know. [Littman] So, then the costumes, like I took his costume, his Zorro costume, um. [Littman] So, it was, there was no separation between my life, [Littman] and what was in front of me. [Littman] But, you really can tell when they're lousy. That, I didn't have  that at all. The little mayor, [Littman] who flubbed his lines, flubbed his lines and had no teeth. I mean, anyway, you couldn't get anything better than that if he had spoken correctly. [Littman] Wouldn't have been as good. [Relph] Yeah. [Littman] And, and many of their parents, the kids parents were in the audience. [Littman] So, they were really, the tears were real.  I mean, [Littman] they were knocked out. They were knocked out. [Littman] It was Sierra Madre and, [Littman] and it was a tiny town. [Littman] And everybody came out. [Littman] We, we just stayed there. [Relth] And you were the, the onset experiences probably. I mean your first narrative onset experience, really, and, [Littman] I had only one terrible, one terrible moment. And it didn't matter because I was surrounded by my friends and people I trusted. [Littman] When I heard a guy say, [Littman] "She reminds me of my ex-wife." [Audience member] Oh, my God. [Laughter] [Littman] And I thought, "Oh, God." [Audience member] You must have inspired him. [Littman, laughing] I didn't. I stepped on his feet. [Laughter] [Littman] There's a gentleman there. [Unintelligible] [Relth] Oh, can you wait for the mic. Thanks. [Littman] Sorry can't hear you. [Audience member] Just curious if you made any nods to any characters from the first documentary? [Littman] If I? [Audience member] Featured. Did you make any reference to any characters, [Audience member] from the first film in the second that we just would not pick up on unless you told us. [Littman] I'm not, [Audience member] Anybody, anybody from the Israel Center who you modeled a character from? Okay, just curious. [Littman] No, no, no. There's Carol then this, well, [Littman] I mean, Mako, who was  one of the great actors of the, of, [Littman] the actors, the, the, Mike's gas station, um, [Littman] was invented. He was not in the original story. The, the side characters were not, were not part of the original but, but, [Littman] but the original story was there in, John Young. I mean, Hiroshi, [Littman] is magic. I don't know how we, I, [Littman] he's magic. I think I had made a documentary with, [Littman] with children with learning disability. And, and had the idea that, we should [Littman] have somebody completely undirected, out of control, you know. [Littman] Who he was. And he did it. [Littman] He did it and when he said, "Oh, God." [Littman] After he said, "Your father won't come back." And out of him came, "Oh, God." [Littman] Ahh. [Littman] I mean, real stuff is really better. [Littman] I think. Whatever. [Relth] Right down here, yeah. [Unintelligible] [Audience member] yeah um, the people who, the characters who embody this story, is obviously a, very much a strength, and, [Audience member] um, I [?] with everyone else. [Audience member] What was the casting process like? [Littman] What was the? [Audience member, louder] the casting process. How did you find Jane, William, [Littman] Well Jane had gone to college with me. She was a little bit ahead of me in college and I had her phone number. [Littman] Which is very handy. If you've never done anything before, [Littman] you have a phone number you use it. [Littman] Um, I was a little worried. She'd just come off of winning many awards for playing Eleanor Roosevelt. [Littman] And I was a little worried that, [Littman] you know, that she'd be arch. [Littman] And she wasn't. [Littman] Margery Simkin, [Littman] um, was a, was, scared the hell out of me. I had never, [Littman] worked with a casting person before. And she just scared the hell out of me. [Littman] And then, um, so I sort of listened. And she had very good ideas. [Littman] And, and I hate casting. As opposed to many people who, [Littman] really love it. I hate it. I hate, [Littman] I hate saying no to all the people whom I would normally know. Who come in and just are not right. [Littman] But, it's awful. I, I, it's awful. [Littman] Um. [Littman] It's wonderful when you, [Littman] when you have somebody's phone number and you know they can do, um, um. [Littman] And, and the big shock about, [Littman] about the casting process was that she left. [Littman] I thought she was going to stay with me. We spent, [Littman] I don't know how many weeks in a room together making these critical decisions. And then, [Littman] when we finished she left. And I felt, [Littman] I couldn't, I didn't know what I expected. But I certainly didn't expect her to leave me. [Littman] Um, and not because I adored her, but because she was, [Littman] we were there. You know, it was the most critical. It was a very critical process that we went through together. [Littman] Um. [Littman] I didn't have any idea who Kevin Costner was. I didn't have any idea, Rebecca I had seen. [Littman] Um, I, but I had, you know, they were not fancy. [Littman] Um, Philip Anglim, [Littman] the guy who plays the priest. I knew more because he was a Broadway, he was a really respected Broadway actor. I knew who he was. [Littman] And, and that was exciting. When people came in to read, actors came in to read. [Littman] Every single, [Littman] fellow who came in, said he'd been in seminary. [Littman] I mean, and I didn't know that actors lie. [Laughter] [Littman] And I thought, wow, there are a hell of a lot of Catholic actors. [Laughter] [Littman] Why didn't they, why didn't they go to, why didn't they become priests? It would have been easier than being an actor. Um, um. [Littman] But they really lie. Um. [Laughter] [Audience member, unintelligible] [Littman] Um. [Audience member, unintelligible] [Littman] Oh. Hmm. [Audience member, unintelligible] [Littman] He was terrific. He was terrific. I mean, he has exactly the kind of, [Littman] lousy energy. You know, he's a, he's an arrogant bastard. [Littman] And he was on set. And I had one, [Littman] showdown with him. The thing that happens, is that, it seems to me, that within, [Littman] two weeks. There's an uprising. [Littman] In the crew. Maybe, maybe it was, it was about two weeks. Where they size you up and they figure that, that's then, okay, now we're gonna punch him out, or punch her out. [Littman] And, and there's like a, [Littman] a shakedown. [Littman] And I had to say, [Littman] primarily to him, [Littman] that although I had enormous respect for him. [Littman] And I knew he'd been on four thousand times more sets than I had ever been on. [Littman] I knew more about, this story than he would ever know. [Littman] And shape up. [Littman] I mean, he came in and he did not really ride a bike well. [Littman] And he had promised that he could ride a bike really well. I mean, it's little things. But, it's the whole opening of the film. [Littman] You know, he ought to know how to ride that damn bike. [Audience member, unintelligible] [Laughter] [Littman] Okay, well I'm glad I wasn't a bike rider but, [Littman] the hell with him. He was good in bed. I mean, he was, [Laughter] [Audience member, unintelligible] [Laughter] [Relth] And Lukas Haas. How was he? [Littman] Well, his parents were wonderful. What you're dealing with when you hire a kid, is the parents. Um. [Littman] That's the deal.  And his parents were wonderful. [Littman] His father was an artist. His mother, I think, was a writer. [Littman] And they were not, they were not, they were nice people. [Littman] Um. [Littman] I mean, that's the deal with kids. You're dealing with their parents and most of them are lousy. [Littman] So, this was not, this was not the case. [Relth] Most of the parents are lousy. [Littman] Yeah, the parents. [Littman] Um. [Littman] um, so I was lucky there. And, um, [Littman] Rossi and Roxanna were, were teenagers but they weren't, they were minors. [Littman] We had teachers on the set all the time. And short working hours for the kids, um. [Littman] But Stevie was amazing. [Littman] and, um, and we got through it. [Littman] And the deal is, the thing that was, the thing that I liked, [Littman] and we did work this out in advance, [Littman] is that as the story got awfuler and awfuler, the picture had to get beautifuler and beautifuler. [Littman] And that was the conceit. [Littman] And that, that was a good idea. [Relth] I think we have time for one more question. [Littman] Then we're gonna go get a drink. [Relth] Yeah. [Littman] Oh, listen, so I, I called over to, [Relth] the Napa Valley Grill. [Littman] The Napa Valley Grill. And they have a corner for as many people as want to come and I hope, [Littman] you come. All of you come, please. [Relth] Very nice, yeah. [Littman] You don't have to drink if you don't drink. You could just suck your thumb, or something. [Laughter] [Relth] I think that's a good place to end it, actually. Lynne, thank you so much for coming out tonight. [Littman] Thank you, thank you. [Relth] This is really great. Thank you.