In the Life: Lady Bunny interviews Larry Kramer [unedited footage]

[Producer:] Action. [Lady Bunny:] We are here at "In the Life" and it is my pleasure to interview legendary AIDS activist, playwright, Larry Kramer, who founded ACT UP, GMHC, and recently, well in 2004, came out with "The Tragedy of Today's Gays" when George Bush was elected. We now have a new president that has filled the country with hope and optimism. Do you share any of that optimism, Larry? [Larry Kramer:] Very much a wait and see thing, Bunny. I don't feel too great about everything, but I don't feel I've seen the danger signs yet. He isn't - he hasn't done very much for us, but he hasn't done very much for a lot of people at this early moment. We keep hearing that there're other things that are more important. And we always get talk like that. Short end of the stick. And it's just a question, how long we're gonna get it. I wish he would open an office just for gay and lesbian, transgender, etc. concerns. And I don't see that happening. Other minorities have had their offices opened. People of color, for instance. Women. But, once again, we haven't. [Bunny:] Were you enthused by... [Kramer:] No such word as enthused. Was I enthusiastic? [Bunny:] Were you... Sorry! Were you enthusiastic or were you... [Kramer:] Was I for him? [Bunny:]... glad to see the - well, I mean, so he's obviously an improvement [Kramer laughs], but were you glad to see the large turnout for Prop. 8 protests? I mean, one of your points in "The Tragedy of Today's Gays" is that today's gays are not involved in activism. So were you pleased to see that? The protests... [Kramer:] Well, it was so little. Too little, too late. And it was very unfocused. The people came out, but they didn't know what to do when they came out. For instance, the march in New York was rather impressive, but when we got to the end of the road, there was no podium, there were no speakers. There was - the people just dissipated. So all that energy went for naught. But it felt good to be with a crowd again. Once again we're leaderless. Once again we're unfocused. Once again, we're not angry enough. Anger is what fo- is what makes activism work. And I don't see any anger now, or fear. And, that's, that's not going to help us. [Bunny:] Well we were both recently interviewed for a documentary on ageism. And I don't know why I was included. [laughs] No, I'm just kidding. [Kramer:] You're younger than springtime. [Bunny:] Yes! But, well, I know a lot of older people. [Kramer laughs] But, um, one of the, the points, and I don't think either of us made it, was that many young people were kind of giving up on safe sex because the notion of living to be an older gay, i.e. a troll, was just not even worth it. Because an older gay is not gonna be able to pick up people sexually. And that doesn't - and, you know, it said, and so, what's the point of their life. if our whole, you know, life being gay revolves around our sexuality only and having sex. [Kramer:] Do you know a lot of people like that? [Bunny:] Yeah! Yeah, I do. I mean... [Kramer:] You should just get some other friends and tell them to wise up. [Bunny:] Well, I, I - that doesn't make me angry but it makes me sad, if that is the case. I mean, I think sadness can - identifying the problem is gonna be one way to start fixing it. And if that is a common attitude among gay people, "Wow, we might as well get AIDS because what's the point in being older?" You know. I mean, that's, that's pretty shocking. [Kramer:] I have to say, I hadn't heard that one. I feel sad about almost everything now, Bunny. And I don't feel that people […]. And the triumph that we had with ACT UP, getting all the drugs, has been dissipated because Act Up self-destructed itself. And, and everybody went back out, as if... AIDS had never happened. So that, that's been very hard for me to accept that people have returned to what we were doing before. And I don't see the spirit that ACT UP engendered, [Bunny:] Mmm hmm. [Kramer:] carried on. What's going on now, we're just little teeny parades here and there. And little, little - I mean, the California thing has just been a disaster from the first day. In all, I mean, that woman in Seattle had done a wonderful job getting things going, but it's just, it's kindergarten stuff compared with what we need. And what they certainly need. And did we deserve to lose? We certainly couldn't fight a good fight. [Bunny:] Why do you think that younger people have lost the taste for activism? [Kramer:] I go around to schools and colleges a lot, and I talk to a lot of kids, and they know they're passive. They know it. I don't know what that means when you know you're passive and still stay [Bunny:] That means that you're a bottom. [Kramer laughs] [Bunny:] Oh, oh, you mean, politically passive. [Kramer:] They're docile. They're not, they're not out there... fighting. They just know life is passive. Instead of active. So. [Bunny:] But I mean, when they go and see... [Kramer inaudible] [Bunny:] What? [Kramer:] Take your mind out of the gutter, girl. [Bunny:] Oh, sorry. [Bunny:] Well, I mean, but when they go to see something like "Milk", you know, which, which is universally praised and, I mean, it's hard to sit through without a tear in your eye at a great man's, you know, sacrifice of his life. I mean, you know, there was a moment where I was thinking, maybe gay activism is going to be reborn. You know, but, it, it... [Kramer:] I'll tell you something. The figures for "Milk" do not include a lot of gay people going to see it. It's doing okay. It's not doing great. The audience is primarily heterosexual. We found this out with most of the productions of "Normal Heart". Gays really don't support gay culture very much. Gay art. They don't go to - they don't read gay books very much. They don't go to gay theater very much. And they're not going to "Milk" very much, so I don't know how inspirational it is proving. [Bunny:] Hmm. So where are we going to get these new Harvey Milks and these new Larry Kramers? [Kramer:] I have asked that question, since almost the first day. Why - why was I one of very few people doing what I was doing? Out there yelling and fighting. Why didn't someone else come along to take my place? [Bunny:] I mean, I, I, I I look around at what especially younger gay people are focused on and, you know, I'm not a fan of "Project Runway" and now everyone is going to take away my gay card, for saying that, but, [Kramer:] Is that what they're focused on? [Bunny:] Yeah, yeah. And so I was in LA and I was with a bunch of people who worked in the fashion industry, make-up artists, booking agents and they'd already seen this episode, but they were eager to watch it again. And with each challenge, like make a dress for $10 or make a dress out of a garbage bag, or make a dress in five minutes, they were like, "Oh, oh, I can't wait to see this." "Oh, I hate this dress." Or either - and they were so passionate about it! And, then I told them, you know, I'm not a fan of the show. But let me tell you this. I just got an email from HRC, thanking me for helping to pass a bill which stiffened hate crimes against gay and lesbian people. And I thought, "I didn't even know that bill was, you know, in the works." So I felt really guilty when I got that email because, you know, that, that kind of thing isn't mentioned in most of our gay publications. And... [Kramer:] What gay publications? We got a, got a couple of rags. We got a couple of... The Advocate, I must say, is now really much better than it's ever been. But how many people read The Advocate? How many people read these bar rags that pass out in every city? We have no way of communicating with each other on a national basis. None. There's no - you know, we can go online to Towleroad and Rex Wockner and things like that and that's how I get all my gay news, but it's not a way for us to communicate with each other somehow. You can read about somebody who got bumped off in Walla Walla, but, but, you'd have no way to plug into the state of Washington that's doing anything about what's happening in Walla Walla. [Bunny:] Right, so the publications that are out there... [Kramer:] Walla Walla is in Washington, isn't it? [Bunny:] Yeah, I think so. [laughs] [Bunny:] But that's the problem, I guess, with the publications is that they don't even alert us to the big gay issues. They alert us about the latest circuit parties. And it just struck me as so odd that these, you know, young gay people were so passionate about stuff which I think is quite meaningless and, and, and I was like, "What's it gonna take to make you support stiffening hate crime penalty, a fist in your face?" I mean, what is it going to take?! [Kramer:] Well, we're getting more and more fists in our face. You're probably right. They've just discovered that the Mormon Church actually had, and has had for a long time, a secret organization, exceedingly well funded, which is devoted to only defeating anything having to do with gay stuff. And that's going on for many generations and they put zillions, not zill-, many millions into the, into the thing in California. The Mormon Church officially is doing this. And the church, of course, doesn't - has done it for centuries. You know, and we never ever, ever fight back. So, you can't... [Bunny:] Don't stay at Marriott Hotels. [Kramer:] Marriott? The Mormons. [Bunny:] Don't the Mormons fund those? [Kramer:] I grew up in Washington, that's where Mr. Marriott started it all. Anyway, we don't fight back. So you can't really blame the gay rags. We have to blame ourselves. It's our responsibility to take responsibility for our lives. And that's where we have been so useless. So useless. [Bunny:] But don't you think that if, if the gay publications could at least include, or the bar rags, could include some issues? I mean, it would at least give us an option. You know, instead of just like the - look at the Gay Pride parade. It's, it's like straight go-go dancers dancing on floats paid for by Luve [?]. You know, I mean, it's, it's... [Kramer:] It's always been that way. [Bunny:] Has it always been that way? I remember taking to the streets with pride, and just, you know, running down the street, and, and being... [Kramer:] It's always been that way, that we have been disorganized and powerless and leaderless. And you mentioned HRC, a worthless organization. I do not understand how they manage to raise so much money and I further don't understand where they spend it. And that's basically the only gay organization out there. The others are miniscule in comparison: the Task Force, Empire - Empire Pride, whatever. And, and you can't name me the name of one gay leader who is out there representing us, like you would - could name Black leaders or women leaders. Name me a gay person. Joey Sals- Salmonella, or whatever his name is? Please. [Bunny:] Mmm. [Kramer:] And it's always been that way. And I've said this since day one. I didn't become an activist until, until, until '81 when AIDS started, and slowly learned what my population of people - I refuse to call us a community, because we're not. We're much bigger than that. We're a population, in what we're all about. And what we're all about, is that we're not about anything. Not anything focused. Not anything determined. Not anything angry. Not anything... [sigh]… noble. Certainly responsible, we're very irresponsible population. [Bunny:] How do we change that? [Kramer:] I started two organizations. Helped to start two organizations. And while they were running, they were magnificent. And we were all dying like flies, which was our motivation. We don't have that motivation anymore. And everybody's gone back to being irresponsible. I don't know. I had another - I tried to restart ACT UP, which we desperately, desperately need now, and which we desperately miss. Do you know that the population, three percent of the population of Washington, D.C., the whole city, is positive now? [Bunny:] I just read that. [Kramer:] Three to four percent. That is huge. [Bunny:] Yeah. It's higher than in some places in Africa, they said. [Kramer:] What's going on down there? Right on the steps of the White House. So, and yes, a lot of those people are gay and you can't say well, it's 'cause it's it's a city with a large people of color population. But there's plenty gays in cases in all of that. [Bunny:] Mmm hmmm. [Kramer:] I don't know. I don't know. I've tried everything I know how to light fires. I tried to restart ACT UP, as I said, but nobody showed up. I fight these things. The tragedy of today - I put my blood into "The Tragedy of Today's Gays", that little book. And, it's still out there. And I tell everybody, "Read it. And if it doesn't scare you, do something about it." [Bunny:] Well. It scared me! It thrilled me. I mean, it, it shot an arrow straight into my heart. And, you know, kind of lit a fire of activism, in me. I have to admit that back in the days of ACT UP, it was so popular that it kind of became notorious as a cruising ground! And I felt like I might not meas- might not be macho enough to make the cut at the meetings! [Kramer:] How do you think I felt? [Bunny:] Truth be told! But anyway, that was quite a while ago, but oh gosh. [Kramer:] Most of those people are dead. [Bunny:] Yeah. The... there was something else that I'm forgetting about that I was going to ask you. What we were just talking about, D.C. population... da da da da da... [Producer:] You know, we're gonna take a break right here. So you can regain your thought, and I need to take your tripod, and at least, try to compensate for... [Producer inaudible] [Production:] 'Cause it's showing me, I'm on the edge. We got it now. [Kramer:] What do you... remind me to ask what you think. [Producer:] If you go into one - when you go into your one shot, [Bunny:] What do I think we should do? Keep running our mouths. Organize. [Bunny:] I mean, I don't see how... [Producer noise] I mean, when I see what gay people are focused on now... I mean, maybe you can be focused on activism and Britney Spears, but I just think it's a different mindset and I think that it's not just the gays that don't care. I think it's the straights that don't care either and we've sat back and we've done nothing for eight years while horrible things have happened, like, you know, the writ of habeas corpus has been taken away. I mean, they're, they're very effective at, you know, distracting us with, you know, I mean, this actress who died, you know, just recently. I said, "I'm not really familiar with her." And someone said, "She only made three movies!" And I don't mean to make light of her death, but, I mean, [Kramer:] That's Natasha? [Bunny:] Yeah. [Kramer:] Oh, she was a friend. [Bunny:] Yeah, I mean, but I mean, I'm just like, okay, so all of a sudden everything is focused over here. And so everything [Kramer:] It wasn't Vanessa's daughter? [Bunny:] Right. [Kramer:] But you all knew Vanessa. [Bunny:] Yeah. But... [Producer #2:] I have a question. I was listening to you, and there's one key question that came up in my mind and I don't know what your thoughts are on this. Is to what degree you feel, even from the days of ACT UP, the gay community has defined... [Kramer:] Population. [Producer #2:] The gay, excuse me, that's right. The gay population has defined itself around very specific demographics, let's just say. [Kramer:] Around the same...? [Producer #2:] Demographics. In other words, to what degree [production noise] do you, and this is something that I would be interested to have come out in conversation if you even see it that way. Like for instance, when you think of - you know, when you talk about gay, normally most people's association with the gay population is what is generated in urban settings. You know, because that's really where... [Kramer:] Right. [Producer#2:] Right [Producer #2:] What is it about these urban settings? What is it about the way in which gay pans out for instance, speaking very specifically, I'm a Black gay man. I know, that my experience with this gay population is a different one, than say, [production noise] you know, Asian, anything in between, including white. [Bunny:] Drag. [Producer:] Right, drag, perfect. The experiences of different experience. And I wonder sometimes to myself, how much activism is lost in our co - in this population, because all the various groups that make up this population haven't maybe always felt like they're part of whatever this population is, or that activist part of it. [Bunny:] Well, it's funny because in smaller cities [Producer #2:] Does that make sense? [Bunny:] where there aren't enough, large enough groups to splinter off into the Black bar, or the lesbian group, [Producer #2:] Right, they're all one group. [Bunny:] or the drag softball team [Producer #2:] Like Rochester, New York. [Bunny:] Right. Their parades are actually much more spirited. Their organization... [Production:] Rolling, rolling. Hold on, hold on, one sec. So I can see this in all three cameras. Great. [Kramer:] You know. [Production:] Hold on. [Kramer:] You know, we used to have more fun. You know, this is supposed to be in honor of Stonewall. And have we made any progress? Of course we've made progress. Have we not made any progress? Of course we haven't made any progress. But certain things we've lost. We used to have a lot more fun, and we used to be able to make love without fear of death. So that's, those are both very heavy things and they're interrelated. So I'm sure this has had a great psychic effect on the population. How could it not? What it hasn't been able to do somehow, is to help take it to the next level, you know. To take that, and work with it and overcome it, like you overcome a handicap, or whatever. And I don't know how many people have that. We did - the Gill Foundation and Ken Sheryl at Hundred [?] did a couple of amazing studies about gay people and how they self-identify. And a huge number of gay people do not self-identify, first and foremost, as gay. They self-identify as bi-sexual and that's just horseshit. Until we can self-identify, everyone must, first and foremost as gay, before anything else, we're not going to be able to put a population out there that's meaningful. I consider myself gay first, before I'm a gay, before I'm a gay man, or a gay Jew, or a... or a gay writer, or a gay activist. I am gay. And that dictates every way, everything I do, how I look at things, how I react, how I write. There's this new issue of The Advocate has an article about all the new people who have been - that Obama has appointed who are gay, or working in the White House. And it scared me, because they're all saying things like, "We're all in this together, blah, blah," meaning straights and gays, we're all in - that's the new, that's the new philosophy: we're all gonna work together in this. And, and I just, I just, I just, almost had a fit. We're not all in this together! We are not all in this together. They are not with us! We have to go, and we have to fight for us. I don't want you being in the White House, not fighting for US, first and foremost, you gays and lesbians who are on Obama's staff. And you have, by what you are saying, you are not fighting for us. You are fighting for all his other issues. Great. Then it doesn't make any difference whether you're gay or straight. And Obama knows this. [Bunny:] So we the people have got to start the fight again? You know, I say at gay pride rallies that are often on Sundays around the country, "It's great that we come out and have a party, and we show our strength in numbers and we say we're not ashamed to be gay and we celebrate the different types of gay people in the community, lesbian, whatever." [Kramer:] Population. [Bunny:] Population. Sorry. And I say, "but we do this, we come out one Sunday per year. Our enemies come out every Sunday per year, in a church." [Kramer:] Exactly. In church. [Bunny:] 52 to one are the odds. How can we win? We've got to get organized and we've got to meet, but in order to do that, we've got to care. And I just don't see that younger people care. [Kramer:] Forget younger people, any gay people. I don't see any gay people anywhere caring to the extent they should care, that they need to care, for us to have any kind of power. [Bunny:] Do you think that it's not - that it's also straight people who just don't care? [Kramer:] I mean, about straight issues? [Bunny:] About Iraq- about stopping the war in Iraq that 80% of the country is supposedly against. I mean, if you're against it, [Kramer:] It's true. [Bunny:] and your tax dollars are going to drop bombs on people that never had weapons of mass destruction to send over to you anyway, then you're a murderer. You're a terrorist! You know, and if that doesn't bother you and supposedly 80% of the country is against it. I mean, I just don't think people care. [Kramer:] Well, I think you're right. [Bunny:] That George Bush took away the writ of habeas corpus, and which, has what, predated the Magna Carta? I mean, not even the Constitution. And all that is, is, "Why have you put me in jail?" We don't have that right in this country anymore. And I just think that that just floats by us because we're so concerned with Jennifer Aniston's latest hairstyle. Or, um, [Kramer:] You don't move in a very butch crowd do you? [Bunny:] [laughs] Larry! [laughs] [Bunny laughing:] I can't imagine what you mean by that ridiculous statement! Well, I mean, you know. [Kramer:] My people don't think about Jennifer Aniston, who ever my people are. [Bunny:] They don't? [Kramer:] No. I imagine I'm sort of a hermit these days. [Bunny:] Well, I think younger gays are, I mean, the marketing has worked. They are obsessed with Britney Spears. They're obsessed with Paris Hilton. They're obsessed with Lindsay Lohan. And they're obsessed with tabloid gossip, becoming stars themselves via YouTube. I mean, even the newscast, Larry King is saying "Meet me on Twitter after the show." I mean, it's absolutely laughable. But it's giving the audience - it's that same cheap thing that entertainers - I've been guilty of it too - where you come out on the stage and say, "Phoenix!" And then they applaud. You know, because you've said the name of their city. [laughs] I mean, it makes no sense but it always works. But even our newscasters, I mean, "news" is, you know, trying to get people to call in and text in and make YouTube videos, so that they can get involved and be stars in some way. I mean, I think its a national obsession. And it's a selfishness. It has nothing to do with furthering the, the needs of a comm- population, sorry. [laughs] [Kramer:] Well, I think... [Bunny:] I mean, it's kind of shocking to see Larry King say, "Meet me on Twitter after this." I mean, it's absurd. [Kramer:] It is. I wrote an essay, a hundred years ago for a gay publication, a gay paper, I don't know, a while ago no longer in existence, about how to, how to start your own little gay organization. And it's included in my book of essays "Reports from the Holocaust". And I would urge people to go and find that essay. Everybody can start a little organization if they want to, devoted to things that they care about. If they don't see an organization that they want to plug into. It doesn't take much to be an activist, you know. I've stood up by myself many times along with a sign. It's a time in history when nobody seems to want to be an activist. And I don't know what that's about either. Especially now, with so many people out of work. You'd think there would be more anger. You know? [Bunny:] Well, I think it's anger about money, rather than anger about issues. And, isn't that the real... [Kramer:] Whatever. Anger is a very healthy emotion. You know, get it out there. Why, you can yell about AIG as much as you want, but stop it already. [Bunny:] Well, it just bugs me that people are more concerned about money than issues like global warming or stopping the war in Iraq, or even fair pay for women. [Kramer:] We don't realize that people hate us! They don't dislike us. They don't just not accept us, they hate us! And until we accept that fact, and face up to that fact we are going to get nowhere! We are going to be the second, third, tenth, hundredth rate population, powerless that we are, and that we have always been, with the exception of a few years with ACT UP, and that we will continue to be. The Mormon Church hates us. The Catholic Church hates us. Muslims hate us. They murder us. Why does this not make us angry enough to fight back? I do not know why. I no longer have any answers. And what do you say after that? [Producer #2:] Let's break for just a second. [Kramer:] Why do you break, just when I'm [Producer #2:] Well, I know, we want... this fucking piece of... [Producer:] I want you to be in your one-shot, Michael. Slates. [Producer:] We're just going to slate it, and then as soon as Amber gets out of the shot, Bunny, you can respond. Are all the cameras rolling? [Bunny:] How do I respond to that? [Production:] Slates. [Kramer:] They hate us! [Producer #2:] Say that again, Larry. [Kramer:] They hate us. It's hate. H-A-T-E. It's a word we refuse to accept as existing, that's killing us. [Bunny:] Yeah, I mean, the, the Pope just a day or two ago, has come out in Africa and, and told the people of Cameroon that condoms don't actually [Kramer:] Don't stop AIDS. [Bunny:] Well, not just don't stop it, but aggravate it. And, you know, it's like, I, I, just how can that not infuriate gay people? I mean, how can there be a gay Catholic after hearing that from your - you know, this isn't like a Jerry Falwell fringe - this is the religious leader of the Catholic Church saying, "because I'm against contraception, I will lead you to your death." How can there be a gay Catholic? I mean, that, that is outrageous. But then again how can there be a Republican [Kramer:] We don't have any leaders protesting. The Times wrote an article about it, of all people, saying the Pope was wrong. But I don't hear it coming from HRC. Or ABC or whoever else is out there, XYZ, who are supposed to be a gay organizations. [Bunny:] Do you think that - it kind of bugs me that the only, the only thing that I'm, that gay people are getting riled up about is Prop. 8 and gay marriage, when it seems like there are so many other issues as well. [Kramer:] A lot of this, a lot of that is being media hyped, out of California. And out of angry gays who are mad at other angry gays because they screwed up the campaign. And they're trying to keep it alive. Which seems to be a waste of energy. I don't know. [Bunny:] Well, I was really curious, Dennis Kucinich came out in the Logo channel interview and said, "Gays, I support gay marriage. Support me, the only candidate who was for gay marriage." And I'm wondering why was there no movement among gays or HRC or no statements issued saying support Dennis Kucinich? [Kramer:] I guess there were other things about him we didn't like. [Bunny:] Like get out of the war immediately and put in international peace keeping troops? That was why I liked him! [laughs] [Kramer:] I guess people felt he couldn't win. [Bunny:] Well, he does look like an elf, and [both laugh] which is not the most authoritative look, but [both laugh] and he wears cheap shoes and his wrists are so thin that it's tough to get cuffs that even fit, which makes him [Kramer:] There, you've just named it. You've pinned him Bunny. [Bunny:] Well, I mean, if, but, I mean, his heart was in the right place. And, I mean, it was really moving to see him on the gay channel saying, "Hey, I support your right to marry, support me." And I would ask people, gay people, "Who do you support?" and they would say, "Hillary's my girl." And I'd be like, "What does that mean? What does that mean she's your girl. She gives you a warm feeling because...? [Kramer:] If we were - if ACT UP were still around after the Pope made a statement like that, we'd be [Bunny:] If who were still around? [Kramer:] ACT UP. [Bunny:] Oh. [Kramer:] We'd be outside, and inside St. Patricks in a minute. That was a very effective demonstration. Put ACT UP on the map. They were very surprised, the Catholic Church, that we dared to confront them. Anyway, Obama's got a little longer a honeymoon, and then we'll see. Maybe he'll throw us some kind of a bone. He seems to be slowly taking care of a lot of, a lot of things. And I'm not going to say I'm, I'm fed up with him yet, 'cause that would not be fair. I just don't feel as good as I wish I did. [Bunny:] Well, I mean, the economic crisis is taking precedence over everything, which I certainly can't figure out. I certainly can't figure that out, but... [Kramer:] Well, you know, gays are suffering from it too. And gays have houses that are fore - that are being foreclosed and all of that. And it would be nice to know that we were included in, in his thoughts. And he hadn't really said as much about the gay marriage issue as I would like. He's said certain good things, but it's been to-get-me-elected kind of good things. I'm not so sure when push comes to shove that he's going to be very supportive. The thing has got to get to the Supreme Court somehow. That's where it's going to be decided. And I guess we gotta wait for a few Justices to cave before he can appoint a couple new ones. And I hope that we can get it into the Supreme Court and have them rule it, rule it [...]. I wish we were tending to certain other issues besides just marriage. Marriage seems to have usurped the entire agenda. There's so many other things that we... [Bunny:] I, I agree and when the HRC issued a statement about the fundamentalist preacher who was going to give the Inaugural - what was his name? [Kramer:] Let's not even mention it. [Bunny:] Okay. Let's not mention his name. They mentioned a statement about that, and on the same day, George Bush pushed through some midnight legislation that gave anyone that worked at a pharmacy the right to not dispense with medication if they disapproved of the person's lifestyle, which means that some Mormon could not give, you know, desperately needed AIDS medication to someone in a wheelchair who might not have access to another pharmacy! Or a Scientologist could not, you know, give out an anti-depressant, or a, you know, I mean, I've got Jehovah's Witnesses in my family and they would not give out anything! So, to anyone. Or just say, "You look like a slut, I'm not going to give you any medicine for herpes." I mean, that's quite shocking I wondered why there was no HRC statement on that. [Kramer sighs] [Bunny:] I mean, that gives the power of some nut, not just the pharmacist but the cashier in a, in a Utah pharmacy the right to take away drugs that someone might need to live. That's pretty shocking. I thought that was a lot more important than that preacher, getting one minute, which he totally flubbed. It was horrible. [laughs] [Kramer:] What do you think we should do? You keep asking me. [Bunny:] Well, I think that - I, I always think that people would get angry if they had the proper networks to get information. Yes, you can seek out the information, as you said, on Towleroad but I think that we need to pressure our bar rags to include more information. I think we need to pressure our network news to give more balanced coverage of, you know, things, which I'm so glad that, you know, MSNBC and Rachel Maddow is on the news now, reporting on stories like, the fact - last night she mentioned something that was fascinating, that not only could the soldiers - they were prevented by the Pentagon from using YouTube, because they don't want the truth getting out there. But they created something for them called "TroopTube" and now they're not even being able to access that freely. So I mean, I think that there are people - I mean, just like, the, the pharmacy thing, it - where, you know, druggists can refuse to give you the medicine you need if they disapprove of your lifestyle. I think that if straight people knew about that they would care. But I just don't think that they're getting the information. I don't think people are aware that Bush did not allow people to see soldiers in their coffins. [Kramer:] I dis- I hear what you're saying, and of course it's true. But I think people do have information, they're just in denial about it. Those stories are not invisible. They hit the papers, the regular newspapers. And, like you say, it's on Rachel Maddow, and it's, it's on Towleroad, but we don't respond. That comes back to this passivity that we seem to have as part of our genetic makeup. And that's how - that's where I always get stumped. I don't know how to go past that, you know. In ACT UP, we were dying. That's what motivated us. We could see each other dying, right in front of us. And boy, you fought hard because of that. And the more people died, the more people came to ACT UP, and the more powerful we became. And it was a mighty thing. A mighty thing, and we achieved mighty results. It's the greatest thing, I think, the gay population's ever achieved. And might ever achieve. [Bunny:] Well, you mentioned in "The Tragedy of Today's Gays" that there's a perception of, of, a misperception that AIDS drugs work. And that that may be a reason that there are increased transmissions of HIV. [Kramer:] They do work. They keep you going. They may, may have side effects and may cost you a lot of money, but they keep you going. It's removed the fear. It's removed the terror. Obviously, I mean, if people can still, can still fuck without condoms because, "Oh my God, you know, I was drunk last night." And it shows you how careless they are. It shows you that the drugs work enough to put them in that kind of a mindset. I don't know. [Producer #2:] Can I jump in, just a second? [Bunny:] Sure. [Producer #2:] At some point, I'd be great to have you both speak. I'd like to hear some - for example, if you were speaking to a group of young people, how you would address them. 'Cause you're talking about the anger you're talking about "They hate us." Well, so, what would you tell a group of young people? If you had them, you know, hostage in this room, 20 young people, 25 years old, what would be your message to them? [Kramer:] I wouldn't... [Bunny:] Fuck me. [Kramer:] We've just spent an hours talking about that. [Producer:] Well, but, I mean, it's, what's [Bunny:] Please fuck me. Would be nice. [Producer:] like a call to action. I mean, you've said... well, I don't know, maybe you have answered it. [Production:] There's one hair that's out of place, darling. [Bunny:] Oh, I'm sorry. Only one? Then we're okay then. [Production:] Yeah, you're doing great. There we go. [Kramer:] Alright, put, put - are we rolling? [Production:] Yes, action. [Kramer:] I go to schools a lot, and I tell them, they say, "what would I tell them to do?" And I tell them that they have to organize. I went and spent a week at... Middlebury. Is that what it's called? Upstate Vermont. Middlebury, and the large gay population in this school and they didn't even know who all each other were. There was no - the gay organization had five people in it. And maybe 100 showed up to hear me, and that's including faculty. And I said, "You have to organize. You have to identify each other, find out who you are in this school. And, and, and the faculty has to be perhaps more out there helping you. And it worked for a week. And they all formed this organization. [Bunny:] For a week! [Kramer:] And it was great. And it became the, came the summer vacation, and I was told, came the Fall, it just wasn't there anymore. So. [Bunny:] Well, I have an idea that might rejuvenate ACT UP. [Kramer:] Please. [Bunny:] Free crystal meth, and barebacking demonstrations. What do you think? [laughs] I'm kidding, of course! [Kramer:] Well, you know, a number of ACT UP people after it was all over, got into crystal meth. For whatever reason. I think, without ACT UP... when ACT UP went out of a lot of lives, because it was so much a part of our lives, it was our daily life. Everybody went home - there were meetings every night if you wanted to go. And once it was over, they didn't have anything to do. And, and, a number of them retreated into crystal meth, which was very sad. [Bunny:] I tried it to lose weight but it just made me eat faster. [both laugh] Just warming up. [laughs] [Kramer:] Did you try it? [Bunny:] No. Well, I have tried it. I hate it, so I don't think I'm going to have a problem with it. [Kramer:] Okay [chuckles] that's a good thing. [Bunny:] I focus - that enables me to focus on heroin, ecstasy, acid, cocaine and liquor. [Kramer:] I guess, you know, we're concentrating on the party people, which you see mostly, for instance, or the younger people. You keep referring to them. But let's talk about the professional people. Let's talk about, about people who actually lead serious adult lives. I'm using very judgmental words here, I know. But, whatever. Who don't go to discos, and who don't go to Fire Island, but who are smart. You know, what are they doing to participate in the responsibility of, of, of our population. Nothing. Nada At least the gay kids who are hanging out with each other. What do the other people do? What do they belong to? What do they do socially? What do they do... Do they go to listen to events at the center? I don't know. [Bunny:] Well, I think that that's because all of the - everything is geared towards youth, I mean, every... [Kramer:] That's not true. The Center has a lot of things that are, that are - the Gay Center in New York is an amazing place with eight zillion things to go to if you really wanted to. Of all ages. [Bunny:] Well, if, if, if you look at invites for the things in the bar rags, which I guess I read a lot more of than you do... [Kramer:] Yeah, but the bar rags... [Bunny:] They're all geared towards body builders, I mean, even the guys in the ads for AIDS medications look like they've just come out of a gym. [Kramer:] Yeah, but you know how many - how few, how few copies of bar rags are printed? How do you - there's no penetration, if I may use that loaded word, into the actual population. You know, we, yeah, we don't have any way of speaking to each other. And, and, and, the New York, what's the Gay City News, whatever our gay paper is called, which is not a bar rag but is, you know, is available, has tons of news in it about the awful things that are happening. So, this business about that the news isn't out there is not true. It's out there for anybody who wants to be bothered to be responsible enough to respond to it. We have to get beyond that. As I've said, I don't know how to get - and I wish someb- I don't know how to get to the next level, you know. If this were AA, what would be the next level? To take all the information and put us back into being responsible citizens again. Because that's what it's about. It's about responsibility. We are citizens of a world and we have responsibilities to each other. I mean, every religion, every parent, everybody's always taught that. And... [Bunny:] Well, maybe if we trick the, the, the bar rags into putting some more of the information and sneak it in and get people interested and get them involved and maybe they think the newsy ones are just all news and all fire and brimstone, and they're just not ready for that, I mean, it's a very tabloid culture. Maybe you've got to kind of lure them in. In the same way that a kooky drag queen has lured people into hearing what you have to say. [Kramer:] You're amazing for a drag queen, that you're so passionate politically. I don't think your fellow sisters emulate that nearly enough. You put too much faith in bar rags, I'm afraid. [Bunny:] No, but I just think that's what the gays that I know read as the Bible. I mean, people - you know, the newspapers are dying. And the ta- [Kramer:] Homo Xtra and things like that? [Bunny:] Hmm? [Kramer:] Homo Xtra and th- [Bunny:] HX and Next and [Kramer:] I mean, I've been interviewed in both of those places and I laid it all out there too. And one of the best interviews that was every done of me was done by Jeff Whitty in one them, I can't remember which, and, and it was so good that they published it in two or three issues. Don't knows if it made any difference. Especially in that crowd. So. [Bunny:] Well, I mean, that crowd is the one that's geared towards the most superficial events and [Kramer:] Well, I'm not looking for salvation from that crowd. I'm looking for more salvation from, you know, the gay partners at Paul, Weiss. There at the accounting firms, or the real estate firms, or all those people, you know, who are, who are making good livings and, and leading in most part, you know, adult lives who maybe even impartnered and have, and have families. Why aren't they fighting for their families? I don't know. [Bunny:] Well, one thing... [Kramer:] A lot of people have retreated into couplehood, taken their kids and leading a very private life. And, and withdrawing really from anything else. Which, is good and bad. It's good 'cause they got something, and it's bad 'cause they're not responsible enough to realize that they gotta fight for this little unit more than ever. [Bunny:] One thing that you mention in "The Tragedy of Today's Gays" was where are the rich gays starting this, you know, helping to fund this movement. Where are they? [Kramer:] I don't know. [Bunny:] And why aren't they helping? [Kramer:] David Geffen chose to give all his money to the UCLA Medical School so it would be called the David Geffen School of Medicine. He did give money to GMHC, to fund that thing down there. But he's got a zillion dollars, and it would be nice if he would fund an organization that's […]. Barry Diller's gone straight as far as I can see. And I don't know what happened to Calvin. [Bunny:] Calvin? I don't think even Calvin knows what happened to Calvin. [laughs] [Kramer:] That's probably true. But you know, there are a lot of other rich gays whose names we don't know. Tons of rich lesbians. HRC, I think, gets a proportion, a huge proportion of its income from rich women. And, I don't know how to get into all of them. The Gill Foundation has had good success courting rich gays into political activism, funding individual states to get the right people elected. They're the ones that got rid of Santori, or whatever that monster out of Pennsylvania. [Bunny laughs] And slowly are beginning to get rid of politicians. They felt, they felt that, that was the move to make, is to get rid of all the people who are against us in Congress and local. And they're having, they're having success at it. And they have a lot of rich people who come and meet once a month and a couple times of year, and they raise a number of mill- many millions of dollars for all of that. But it's all sort of secret. It's all kind of hush-hush. Which is fine, but... no one has come up with an idea of how, as you put, to deal with the grass roots-ness of it all. [quietly:] I don't know, I don't know, I don't know. I... I try not to let myself despair. [Bunny:] I think even the bar rag community has dissipated now because of online hooking up for sex. I mean, you know, so I think, you know, it's even - there's even less feeling of a community - you know, and I travel around to quite a few different cities - than ever. [Kramer:] The Internet has had a lot of pluses and minuses. One, we can talk to each other. And one, we can't talk to each other. Very hard. [Bunny:] And we can put heavily-Photoshopped old photographs in personals ads. [both laugh] I'm told. [Kramer:] Of course not. [Bunny laughs:] Yes. [Kramer:] I would count on you not to do that. [Bunny:] Why?! [laughs] It works! I mean, no. [Kramer:] You know, maybe some rich gays will be watching us. And say... [Bunny:] Bunny needs a new wig. [Kramer:] No Bunny doesn't. [Bunny laughs] [Kramer:] And say, Bunny and Larry, let's get together and talk about this. Maybe we should start another - Lady Bunny and Larry should start another organization. I don't know. I always vow I'm never going to do that, but there isn't a day goes by where there's not an issue that requires some kind of activism, a picket or a protest, or... throwing fake blood, you name it. [Bunny:] Well, you are busy working on a book. [Kramer:] Oh please. It's 4,000 pages, I just printed it out. My first draft, I just printed out. It's hard working on 4,000 pages. [Bunny:] I'll bet, I'll bet. [Kramer:] So, it's been taking me three months just to run it through. [Bunny:] And is that first draft, [Kramer:] It's a first draft. [Bunny:] like, with an end? [Kramer:] Yes. [Bunny:] Wow. [Kramer:] I've been working on it since the early, mid-'70s. So it's a major, a major arrival point, but I still got, you know, five more years easy. [Bunny:] Five more years?! [Kramer:] Well, it's hard editing. I've discovered so many things, you know, about Abraham Lincoln and George Washington, and Andrew Jackson, and Lewis of Lewis and Clark and de Toqueville. We gotta lot of gay brothers out there. [Bunny:] Wow! [Kramer:] We do. That's another thing that bugs me totally, is that gay history is not taught anywhere. Gender studies is taught. But gender studies is not gay history. [Bunny:] Gender studies? [Kramer:] Yes, doll. [Bunny:] What is that? [Kramer:] [laughs] I love you! [Bunny laughs] I'll tell that to the Yale faculty. [Bunny laughs] [Kramer:] Gender studies is why you - [Bunny:] No, I'm... [Kramer:] why you're wearing a wig. [Bunny:] I - You know, my parents ask that. A lot. [laughs] [Kramer:] They go into the history of why people wear wigs, or something but they don't go into, you know, the history of George Washington being gay. [Bunny:] Well honey, this country, this great country was founded by men wearing wigs. And I think that it's time to take the nation back. [Kramer:] [laughs] Hear that George. I was quite surprised how much I was able to find out about George Washington being gay. [Bunny:] Really! [Kramer:] Lincoln we've known about. Lincoln there're a couple... [Bunny:] I didn't! [Kramer:] You just heard it from me for the first time? [Bunny:] Yeah! [Kramer:] Where you been girl? [Bunny:] Well, I guess Lincoln and I didn't go to the same cruising grounds. [Kramer:] Well, he went to them, believe it or not, in, in Illinois. He - there's a book out called the intimate, "The Intimate World of Abraham Lincoln" by Tripp, T-R-I-P-P. I urge everybody to read it. It's a marvelous book. He was, he was gay, hook-line-and-sinker, gay. George... George, I heard about first from Gore Vidal who pointed out that he was in love - George was - with Alexander Hamilton. And I've discovered a lot about that. So, but again, why am I doing this? Where are... Where are, where are the gay academics? Where - I started - a program at Yale for gay history, and it became gay gender studies, and they spent all my money, and then closed it down. I'm not very fond of Yale, Yale these days. [Bunny laughs] [Kramer:] Anyway. [Bunny:] What's the title of your book? [Kramer:] "The American People" [Bunny:] Okay. [Kramer:] That's what we are. And we have been here, since day one. We have been here, since day one. We may not have been called homosexuals, but we were here, and we knew we were, what we were. Many, many eons, had different names for us, or for themselves, or had no name at all. But we knew who we were, and we knew how to find others. So all this horseshit, that just because there was no word for homosexual, until the late 19th century, so therefore we didn't exist, is just bullshit. That's what I want history departments to teach. Good luck to me. [Bunny:] [laughs] Yeah, really. [Kramer:] I know, my brother gave a million dollars to Yale to do just that. And they pissed it all away. Not very happy with Yale. [Producer:] Can we just throw the question out about Stonewall, since [Bunny:] Sure. [Producer:] Just as a - since we are talking about history. [Bunny:] What is the question? [Producer:] Just why hasn't - how is it - how did Stonewall become such a marker for the gay rights movement and, you know, does it mean, you know, what does it mean? Does it mean anything that we have a 40th anniversary? [Bunny:] Is it the 40th coming up? [Producer:] Yeah. And I think we're going to have to change tapes right now for this question. [Bunny:] Okay.