In the Life: Kate Clinton interviews Barney Frank, Herb Moses

[Barney Frank] That, I think, is a great shot about what politics is really about. It was taken, it's an actual sequence, [Frank] live and, and, and not live, but, but real sequence. It was election night, 1980. [Frank] Which was a very Republican year. Was the first year I ran for Congress. [Frank] And everybody said, "Oh, it's a safe democratic seat." But I knew it was a bad year, and, [Frank] people were sort of protecting my record. And I was an unmarried forty year old and they were beginning to, [Frank] figure some things out. And so that was taken in my, sort of, inner sanctum as the returns came in. [Kate Clinton] Hmm. [Frank] And at first we're waiting. And then some good returns came in. And, so then you see, these two, three people, [Frank] choking me. Basically saying, "Oh, you see, you were joking, you thought you were going to lose. And we knew you were going to win and you aggravate us for nothing." [Frank] And then bad news comes in again. But, the woman choking me is, [Frank] a good friend, who is my Press Secretary, Thaleia Schlesinger, who was Paul Tsongas twin sister. [Frank] And John Martella, who was my campaign consultant. Jim Siegel who was a good friend. [Frank] Ah, but that's the kind of ups and downs of politics. I mean, first we're not sure. [Frank] Then they're giving me a hard time because I was unduly pessimistic. [Clinton] Then, you're glad. [Frank] And then we're back to being pessimistic because some bad returns came in. [Frank] I think, actually, that was Framingham, maybe. Then I lost Sudbury. That we were, we were, [Clinton] You did win the night. [Frank] I did win the night. But that's the, kind of reminds you of, [Clinton] Look at this, before video. [Frank] Yes, that's right. We have to, if you run this really fresh. It's perfect. [Laughs] [Clinton] And this one here? [Frank] That one I'm very proud of. It's an important story. [Frank] You know we talk a lot about about coalition building, between, [Frank] lesbians and gay men and other groups. And that's an example of how it works. [Frank] In 1943, some people will remember. The United States did one of the worst things it ever did. [Frank] We went to, the Federal Government went to California, [Frank] and rounded up Japanese Americans. Japanese Americans. People who were American. Who were either born in Japan, or who, [Frank] whose parents were born in Japan. And locked them up in concentration camps. [Frank] For no good reason. And it was the worst example of, of abuse. And I remember reading about that in college and saying, [Clinton] Hmm. [Frank] "Yeah, what a terrible thing for my country to do." I mean, one of the people who did it was Earl Warren. [Frank] A great supporter of civil liberties but they panicked and locked people up. [Frank] And I became chairman of the subcommittee, that was in charge of legislation whereby the United States paid claims against it, [Frank] for things that had been done wrong. And I worked with the two Japanese American members of Congress at the time, [Frank] Norman Mineta and Bob Matsui. And interestingly, [Frank] they, they were both American foreign members of Congress, from California, who had themselves been locked up. [Clinton] Hmm. [Frank] Norm was like ten years old. Bob Matsui was about one year old. [Frank] They'd been locked up with their families. [Frank] And I was chairman of the subcommittee and we got the bill through. In 1988, [Frank] we got a bill signed in to law. And one of my proudest moments, frankly, was to stand on the floor of the House of Representatives, [Frank] and read the official words of a piece of legislation, "On behalf of this nation, Congress apologizes. [Frank] I think that's a sign of real greatness. And we got the payment. And it was very important to the Japanese Americans. [Frank] And what's relevant is that a few years later, the Japanese Americans Civic League, Citizen's League, which was the main, [Frank] active group behind us. Had passed a resolution supporting marriage between gay men and lesbians. [Frank] Not between a gay man and a lesbian, but between a gay man on the one side and lesbians on the other. And, um, [Frank] ah, because as you  know the society has always allowed a gay man to marry a lesbian, it's just, [Clinton] Yeah, right. [Frank] it's just the logical ones they don't allow. [Frank] But, the Civic League had done this, and some of the more conservative, [Frank] Japanese American groups decided this was a terrible thing and they wanted to repeal it. [Frank] And they had a convention,  I think it was in 1993. And Norm Mineta, who was, [Frank] a full committee chairman. He was the sort of senior Japanese American politician, in terms of he'd been the Mayor, [Frank] of San Jose and he was Chairman of the committee. [Frank] And you know politicians don't usually get involved in the affairs of, [Frank] their own local civic groups or their own ethnic group because, [Frank] you make enough enemies here. You don't need to do that there. But in a very hot issue, Norm Mineta took the floor, and I was very touched. [Frank] And people called me about this and he said, [Frank] "You say what if gay people and lesbians do this. Well it was a gay man who was Chairman of the subcommittee, Barney Frank, [Frank] "who helped us get our rights and how can you now tell us we walk away. And those of us who've been the victims of, [Frank] "discrimination and oppression had better stick together." And so that was an example. I mean, I've just, that's not why I did it. [Frank] But that means a great deal to me and, and it was [Frank] very important as Norm Mineta, to his, [Frank] great credit, took the floor and, ah, and stood up for us. [Off camera unintelligible] ... move back to... [Frank] Andrei Sakharov was in America [Buzzing noise] and was [Off camera unintelligible] put here and, [Clinton] Mmm, hmm. [Frank] she was, [Frank] I think the Russians kind of figured, well, she'll stay here. [Frank] And we'll get rid of her. And she said, "No this is my husband. He's back and I'm gonna go get him." [Frank] But she did not want to go back to Russia alone. She was afraid they might disappear her somehow. [Frank] So, she wanted a congressional escort. So, we escorted her. Now you see,  that's an Al-Qaeda site, [Frank] from Milano to Moscow. And nobody was there. I mean, these people figured, hey right, because nobody knew what was happening. [Frank] So, there's like the three of us, [Frank] and then a few other guys who were probably American, Russian and Italian Secret Service people. [Frank] We were very well protected. I'm surprised we didn't shoot each other. We had the whole plane to ourselves. [Off camera unintelligible] ... on the table there. [Clinton] I was looking. Oh, here? This one? [Off camera] Yeah, okay. [Clinton] What is this? [Frank] Well, that is entirely too much jelly for me. [Clinton laughs] [Frank] But I'm not really, that's, ah. I'm thinner than that. And that's, ah, Herb Moses and I and the President. [Frank] Who was, ah, dressed up as Lamar Alexander. [Clinton] That's a beautiful shot. [Frank] That's, ah, Lamar Alexander. [Frank] That is Lamar Alexander in the picture. Um, he was [?] before the [?]. The White House twice a year invites all members of Congress and, [Frank] spouses. And this was, once it's inside, a formal event. And once it's outside at a picnic. [Frank] And, ah, this was, ah, Herb and I at the picnic. [Clinton] Now when you would you go to these places you would say, this is, [Frank] My brother. And, now people know. Herb's got his official spots. And we've, [Frank] decided that, ah, Herb and I have been together nine years, ah, this August. [Clinton] Congratulations. [Frank] Thank you. And um, [Frank] we had decided all along that we weren't going to do anything just to make a point but we were not going to not do something, so somebody else could make a point. So, [Frank] we go wherever else congressional couples go and I think, ah, what we find is if you just do it, [Frank] people don't make a fuss. I mean, you don't, we don't give them the option of saying, you can't come here. We're all ready here. Great. [Clinton] Good. [Frank] Yeah. [Clinton] There was one over here that I thought was wonderful, ah! What is this from? [Frank] Oh, this was, ah, [Frank] at the, ah, Democratic, [Clinton] Democratic, [Frank] Yes, the Democrat [?] because we you know, Democratic [?] and, ah, [Frank] Herb was there and we go to the State of the Union and again we find that, ah, so maybe the first time people have encountered a, [Frank] half of a gay couple. But, it's, it's, [Frank] What happens if they find [?]. Nothing bad happened. I mean, I went, I talked to this man and he was very nice and, ah, [Frank] everything went forward. So, I, I, it seems to us, it is one the best ways we can help to combat the coverage, [Clinton] You're so fabulous. [Off camera, unintelligible] ... is that a real life Barney, is this a before and after picture? [Clinton laughs] [Clinton] Is this a, a real-life Barney is this a before, [Frank] Yes, actually.  That's twenty years old. That's what I looked like, [Frank] when I was a young, dashing young man. [Clinton] This is when you were my mother's favorite. [Frank] 19, well I hope,  It's 1976. [Frank] And I was kind of making a virtue out of necessity, with [?] and everything. But, it does remind me, that, ah, [Frank] yeah, that's, that's what life was like for me, ah, [Frank] back then. I'm kind of a nervous eater so when I'm under a lot of stress. When I'm unhappy I eat a lot. And then of course, [Frank] I eat a lot and gain weight and I get unhappier. Which is kind of a vicious cycle. But, that is a reminder, of, of, what things were like, [Frank] in 1976. [Clinton] [?] [Frank] Actually, that was, yes, [Clinton] Yes. [Frank] That, I, I, [Frank] I was thinking of, that was last year's, twenty years ago's poster.  Last year, I was thinking of a, of a new poster. [Frank] It was going to be, because the public is in a very bad mood about all this stuff. [?] by me. [Frank] I said, [Clinton] Okay. [Frank] [?] by me. [Clinton] Okay. [Off camera] Good. Um. [Unintelligible] [Clinton laughs] It's good but it's not that good. [Clinton] Let's see I'm not comfortable. [Off camera] All right. [Clinton] No, you don't get to choose, okay. [Off Camera unintelligible] [Clinton Laughs] Barney congratulations on being appointed the, the speaker of the parliamentary task force and the point man. [Frank off camera] Thank you, that was ah, [Clinton] Are you having fun? [Frank] I have been and ah, well you know, it's on two levels. It's fun on a day-to-day basis because when you can really fully throw yourself in- to it and, you know, the hardest part of my job are the, morally ambiguous issues. Like if you push far enough. Are you making the right trade-off. But opposing Newt Gingrich and Dick Armey, um, there's not a lot of moral ambiguity. They are so wrong  on just about everything. That you really can kind of just swing for the fences on everyone. On the other hand, while it's fun on a day to day basis, it's sort of sad to see, things that you care about get out voted and see, people lose their, low-income home heating assistance. [Clinton] Mm, hmm. [Frank] Or the Legal Services Corporation further strained or see environmental things weakened. But it, it does make the job easier because you know, that these, these are the opposition people and they're wrong and you just swing away. [Clinton] Now do they call you and say get over there right now. [Frank] From time to time.  Yeah, I work particularly with some of the staff people. [Frank] And I will get a call or usually we know in advance and I'll say, they're planning to do this, ah. For example, we had a, ah, one of the things the Republicans were getting in trouble over was, shutting the government down and not dealing with the debt limit. And, on a couple of occasions they wanted to sort of adjourn and go away but they didn't want to get caught doing that. So we would try to make them vote on that. I mean, one of the things you can do in the parliamentary, body is to insist on roll call vote. And, ah, when we were about to leave in, in early February, for most of the month of February, they didn't want to get caught voting on that.  So, they had the resolution coming forward for the three week break. And they had one of their best parliamentarians in the chair and, and so the staff said to me right now. But it was sort of, we were, we were doing the dance there. Where, ah, I had to yell at just the right moment, and so yeah, the staff will come and say, they're planning this, make sure you go to roll call. or they're going to do that, make sure you do that. [Clinton] Were you surprised that they appointed you? Well, I was pleased if they did it. And I did raise, as I said the issue where, well, are people going to say, gee, you now, he's gay, and he screwed up, as I did a few years ago. And in fact, ah, one, one, ah, reporter said that, Robert Novak, I mean, Novak who specializes in right wing hysteria. Ah, I think that's what his degree is in, right wing hysteria. And ah, after the first day, when I was critical of some of what they said, he, I heard him on television, say, "Well, it certainly was surprising, ah, that Frank would be doing this." And he basically suggested that I was sort of self-appointed and that everybody else would say, [Frank] "Get him back in the closet," in effect. [Frank] And, ah, I, I thought that might be coming, and so I raised that with the leadership saying, you know, look I, [Frank] I want to do this but, I don't want you to, [Frank] tell me and then you're going to say, "Well wait a minute we can't." [Frank] And they said, "No, we don't care. We don't think it'll make any difference." And I think the answer is it hasn't made any difference. I thought there, I mean, there was this effort when, [Frank] clearly it was in the back of Dick Armey's mind, [Frank] when he referred to me as Barney fag. [Clinton] And then, and he said that he was trying to say Frank and harangue. [Frank] Yes. [Clinton] And, now I've worked on that, [Laughs] [Frank] It might have been frang. [Clinton] Frang. [Frank] Or I thought the best response to that, ah, [Frank] ah, my brother asked my mother. Because he said, he just mispronounced Frank and it was an innocent mispronunciation of Frank.  It came out as fag. And so my mother acknowledged, that yes, she became Mrs. Frank, ah, fifty nine years before that and she said, in the fifty nine years, no one had ever introduced her as Elsie Fag. [Clinton laughs] [Frank] So, she was disinclined to believe that, that was a simple mispronunciation. But it was clear when, when Armey said that. But what, [Clinton] And no one said anything about his name? [Frank] No. [Frank] Certainly, I wouldn't, [Clinton] But I thought you were wonderful. [Frank] I thought, I'll leave that to you. But, the, um, the interesting thing was that when Armey said that, the roof fell in on him. And in fact, you got the greatest proof that he knew it was a mistake. He denied it. I mean, you know, I don't think he was being honest when he denied it. Um, but that it was in his mind. And so I think what happened was he did try it, or at least it popped out. And the reaction was so negative that nobody tried it since. So I think that, that's frankly one more step that we passed. And I was asked to take a kind of, prominent controversial position. Some of them thought the fact that I was gay and I'd been indiscreet a few years ago that, that was going to discredit me. And the general public said, "Please, will you pay attention to the real things. And, "you know, this is not anything that we care about." [Clinton] Do you think it's harmed you though, I mean, what things do you think you've paid a tax for because you're out. [Frank] Very little. Ah, and obviously, I want to say that, you know, the benefits have been enormous. Not just the the personal benefits, but I wouldn't have met Herb if, ah, if I come out of, that I think, you know, Herb has enough sense not to want to live a kind of, half life, with someone who was in the closet. So, our, our relationship would never have come across. Ah, and I always I think it even helped politically because I honestly believe that a lot of people both, in the general electorate and among my colleagues, admire honesty. [Clinton] Mm, hmm. [Frank] And, ah, that's, that's a benefit. If I had a chance to be in the congressional leadership and it's probable that I didn't, you know, there's only a few people out there. Ah, that would have meant that I hadn't been that. When I, when I first came out to Tip O'Neill it's kind of an interesting experience here. Tip was a lovely man and a very sympathetic guy. He occasionally, he had his own way with words. At one point, when he heard the rumor that I was going to do that, he told some of the staff that he heard that I was about to come out of the room. I don't know whether, ah, whether he, he was in the room, yeah, but, um, he, indicated to me that, well, he was sorry because he thought I might have been in the leadership. But, you know, even if that was the case, I don't, it was a very long shot anyway. Um, that's hardly a deprivation, ah. And in terms of my, my ability to influence public policy or my ability to get reelected in my district. I haven't seen any negative effect. [Clinton] Now, the name Barney. Is  it, is, it's not the PBS purple Barney? [Frank] No. Although, there is that my, my, Herb's niece, you should just say to her, no, no, I mean, the real Barney, not Uncle Barney.  [Clinton laughs] So she would, she would differentiate that way. And I do have a picture of me with my brother's, daughter, when she was three. Of me holding her, while she shook hands with, with Barney. [Clinton] Very confusing. [Frank] But, yes. [Off camera, unintelligible] [Frank] you know when the network people do you, ah, the big network correspondents, [Frank] rarely disturb themselves, unless you're like the President, so, [Frank] very often, if they're doing a story on a big interview, they send a, ah, pinch-hitter . [Frank] It's, it's some, some, some member of the production staff, ask you the questions. [Frank] And you answer. And then they dub, [Frank] the, ah, network anchor asking you. And you don't see, you know, what's you don't, you don't get a two-shot you get, [Frank] me, and then, ah, him or her. [Clinton] That doesn't sound like anything we would do. [Laughs] [Frank] It's funny. The media, they can be the worst. I mean, they talk about honesty. But, then sometimes, [Frank] they'll be taping a show on Thursday, that's to be shown on Sunday. And they will say, "Oh no, don't say Thursday,  say, make believe this is Sunday." [Frank] But that, [Clinton] But that way, you get out of town. [Frank] Yes. [Off camera, unintelligible] but, what, [Clinton] Thank God. So, do you think out of deference to you, perhaps, that they, the PBS named, that, that fabulous Barney, "I love you, you love me," after you. [Frank] Well, actually I, I, I like to take credit. But, Barney is probably, a sort of a funny name. I mean, Barney is a name that gives, sort of, characters like, ah, Barney Google depending on how old people are. People talk about Barney Google  or, ah, Barney Fife. [Clinton] Mm, hmm. [Frank] Ahh. [Clinton] Rubble. [Frank] Barney Rubble. Yeah, Barney, Barney is kind of a funny name, so, um, Barney's dinosaur comes out of a long line of funny Barneys. [Clinton] Maybe more of those Barney's from the clothes store. [Frank] Yes, [Clinton] Exactly. Well, except, you know, when I was growing up, that was at, ah, a kind of a, a cheaper place. I mean, Barney's used to be a kind of a, a lower ranked clothing store. Now, of course, it's, become too expensive to look in the window. That was named for Barney Pressman who was the, [Clinton] Oh. Barney, Barney is for some reason, there was some, Russian Polish name that lend itself to Barney. [Clinton] Was that, that is your full name, Barney? [Frank] Actually, my legal name at birth was Barnett. But, my parents call me Barney, after my grandfather because among Jews you were named for a, [Clinton] Mm, hmm. [Frank] a deceased relative. And, um, but they immediately called me Barney. And I had it legally changed, because, as it is now, I have about a fifty/fifty chance that people will get it backwards. That I show up at the hotel for  the reservation and it's Frank Barney, or, and, and, Frank Barnett was a much more logical one, see. [Clinton] Mm, hmm. Barnett Frank. So, I had it legally changed. I'm in the office where Barney Frank works as Representative of the Fourth District of my home state, Massachusetts. In 1987, Barney came out as an openly gay man and I couldn't be any happier. He couldn't be happier either, apparently, because a couple of months later, he met and fell in love with Herb Moses. They now share a townhouse and their lives here in Washington. When Barney's not here at work, that is. So, Herb, what do you do here at Fannie Mae? [Herb Moses] I am director of housing initiatives. It is my job to create new types of mortgage products for parts of the market that are not, ordinarily served by, by conventional mortgage finance. [Clinton] Oh and here at Fannie Mae, I understand you have a wonderful new domestic partnership. [Moses] Yes, we, we've had it for about two years. And, I think it's the, the best or one of the best in the country. We have, um, complete domestic partner benefits. they just went through and wherever it said spouse, it now says, spouse slash domestic partner. And they've really been, um, excellent about it. Just, sort of, doing it the way that you want every company to do it. [Clinton] Were you involved in the, the getting it done? [Moses] Yes. [Off camera, unintelligible] [Clinton laughs] [Clinton] All right, Darryl. Were you involved in getting it passed? Yeah. Um, actually, there was a group of us who got together. Ah, we have a gay and lesbian employee support group here. And we did it in a very nice corporate sort of way. We said, "Okay, "who do we have to talk to? What do we have to do?" We worked very closely with the human resources department. Ah, we checked with people in top positions to, you know, do you have any, questions about it. We gave them a chance to, to ask those questions in private. It's not confrontational at all. And it passed. And they did it because it was the right thing to do. [Clinton] That's fabulous. Now, [Clinton] I understand that you and Barney talked a lot about when you go to events with Barney and how you're going to handle it. Now, do you invite Barney to events at your place? [Clinton] And how does that work out? Well, actually, it's a little trickier. Because, you know, with him, one, he's powerful and important. So he can kind of do what he wants to do. With me, I am, you know, somewhere in the, in the middle of the corporate ladder. And I feel a little more careful about how I behave. I've actually found that the biggest  issue is not the gay thing. It's the congressman thing.  [Clinton] Oh. Like, when he's, you have two people standing there, Barney and me standing together at a conference. You have this problem. [Clinton] Very often the, ah, the situation, as we talk about Barney bringing you to events. What's it like to bring Barney to some of your events? Well, it's actually a little trickier for me because Barney is important and powerful and he can do whatever he wants. I, on the other hand, am somewhere in the middle of the corporate ladder and this makes it a little more tricky for me to figure out what I should do. It's actually less difficult from the gay side of things than it is just for the congressman side of things. Ah, for instance, I recently took Barney to a conference of an association that I'm part of. And I said, "Well, I'm going to go to the reception alone. And it wasn't because I was worried about anything gay it was because, like, if you're a lender from some, you know, some small town in Texas. And you're there. And there's two people to talk with. Who're you going to talk with? Some guy from Fannie Mae who wants to talk business.  Or the congressman. Because you don't really get a chance to talk to a congressman too often. So, I said, you know it's kind of a distraction. I need to do business and everyone will want to talk politics with him. [Clinton] Do you ever have a little poke that you give him, like, psst. No, I, I just, I wouldn't do that. Because people notice when you give people little pokes. [Clinton laughs] You give it and the other person goes, "Ow!" Yeah. It is, ah, you know, occasionally people will want, ah, to try and get a piece off of him.  [Clinton] Mm, hmm. And that's a little difficult. He's very good about it. I mean he's gotta, be polite because it's, "my office." Um, I can remember having a dinner party at the house a long time ago, where I invited a person, who used to work here, to dinner. And for whatever reason she, decided to go off about congressional perks. And there were two members of Congress at the dinner table and I was thinking, "Bad move." [Clinton laughs] And people, both people were arguing with her. Ah, and when she got to the part about, "Oh, you have the air force planes." No, you're wrong. [Clinton laughs] And it's a little delicate to try and tell somebody who is above me in the corporate hierarchy like, "Shut up. You're being really stupid." [Clinton laughs] I think I'll clear the table now. [Moses laughs] [Off camera unintelligible] Well, we're talking and I, and I, and I, this is just incredible stuff. Did you do this? [Moses] Of course. All the pottery here is mine. [Clinton] It's all yours. [Moses] Yeah. Uh, huh. Yeah, this, this is like, [Moses] this, this was the prototype for a burial urn. That someone commissioned a burial urn for themselves. [Moses] And this was one of the prototypes and I thought, "Well, that's kind of a cool jar, so I made a few of them. [Clinton laughs] And this? [Moses] Ah, just a big vase. [Clinton] Fabulous. Fabulous. Where do you do this stuff? [Moses] In the house. We have, ah, ah, I have a studio in the basement of the house. [Moses] And there used to be an apartment down there. And I ripped it out and got my pottery studio down there now. What most interested us about Barney and Herb was their life together here on S Street. [Clinton] So, who makes the coffee? [Frank] I usually do, because I usually get up first.  I go to sleep a little earlier. [Frank] And get up a little earlier. Our days and nights are about ninety five percent coordinated. [Clinton] Mm, hmm. [Frank] I get up, usually I'm up first. And, whoever, whoever get's up first, makes the coffee, basically.  [Moses] He makes the coffee. [Clinton] Now, is it a cowboy coffee thing? [Moses] Cowboy coffee? [Clinton] Are you boiling it? [Frank] Yes, we,  [Moses] Well, um, [Frank] We live in a nice typical sort of urban neighborhood, especially for gay men and there are only three Starbucks within walking distance, [Clinton] Mm, oh. [Frank] So we just get coffee and they grind it, and you know. [Clinton] You, you don't have it on a timer? [Moses] No, we're not, we try to keep the electronics and technology simple, because the more that you have, the more that goes wrong. [Clinton] Mm, hmm. [Clinton] So, you make it. And when you, you have people over for dinner, who, who does the cooking?  [Moses] Somebody else. [Clinton laughs] [Moses] I make the coffee at the  end of the meal. [Clinton] Oh, that's nice. And who cleans up? [Moses] We do. [Frank] No, we have a woman who comes in and does it. [Frank] She's a, ah, professional, [Moses] catering, [Frank] catering service and we, I generally go pick and pick it up, and we, ah, entertain. [Clinton] How often do you entertain? [Moses] Oh, once every couple months. [Clinton] Mm, hmm. [Moses] I like to do dinner parties for people and get friends together. [Clinton] So, do you eat out a lot. [Moses] Well, it depends. I mean, we  don't cook a whole lot. But, ah, if you define eating out, as going to the, ah, Sutton Place down the street and getting a sandwich as eating out, then, yeah, I do a lot of it. [Frank] But, mostly we just, maybe once every two weeks, there's some kind of event we go to but, ah, [Frank] most of the time we, we eat here but rarely cooking from scratch. I mean, we're both working. You know, we don't get home, [Frank] like, no we usually sometimes one's home by seven, the other at nine or vice-versa. I've got the legislative schedule. Well, I have one sort of advantage going for me. [Frank] If I say I'm working late and that's why I won't be home, he can turn on C-Span and check up on me. [Frank] So, [Clinton laughs] [Frank] If I say I'm working late, I have to be working late, there is television. [Clinton laughs] [Moses] I do one of them, I just throw large. And show you how to, that's about twenty five pounds of clay. [Clinton] Wow. [Moses] And, [Moses] like, this one is about fifteen pounds. The one behind you is about twenty pounds of clay. And, it's very difficult to throw that much. It just takes a lot of strength. And there's also a couple tricks that you learn how to, manage that much. It's pretty good. [Clinton] So, basically, if the Fannie Mae thing, if the, [Clinton] representative thing doesn't go, [Moses] I can always support us as a potter. But, yeah a lot of people have successfully done that. [Moses] Ah, I think, ah, [Moses] that and the food stamps would probably get us through. [Clinton] Yeah, I think so. And certainly, Barney has worked with a number of, [Clinton] well, psycho ceramics. Crackpots. [Moses laughs] [Clinton] And, ah, [Moses laughs] [Clinton] I've always loved that. [Pottery wheel whirs] [Moses] But, um, when I was in high school I think my ceramics teacher was gay. And, [Moses] I had ceramics alternating with Gym and he used to sort of let me hang out in the ceramics room and cut Gym, and so, [Moses] and, I, he was just real nice about it. I'm sure he, he liked me. But, I've no idea what happened to him. [Clinton] Mm, hmm. [Moses] I just kind of stuck with it. And got to be good. [Clinton] Mm. [Moses] I'm really glad I did. I, I decided, like, at some point in my life, I was like, should I become a potter or should I do something else and I got an MBA, but, um, [Moses] if I hadn't have done that I never would have been able to afford to have my own studio. [Clinton] Mm, hmm. [Pottery wheel whirs] [Clinton] Are you going to [?] [Moses] No, it's ah, you'd get all messy. [Clinton] Oh, okay. [Pottery wheel whirs]