In the Life: Interview with Gilbert Baker [unedited footage]

[Gilbert Baker] Um, so I'm Gilbert Baker. I'm a vexillographer. Vexillography, is the making of flags. And I love to sew. That's my craft, my art, and, I made the Rainbow Flag in 1978. And here we are in 2009, and, I'm still making them. There you go. [Male ITL interviewer, off camera inaudible] [Baker] Yes, bad. [Male] Yes. [Female ITL interviewer, off camera] Okay. All right. [Baker] Okay. We made one. [Female] Great. [Baker laughs] [Female interviewer, inaudible] [Baker] Check. Okay, again. [Female interviewer] When did you get your first sewing machine? Oh, that's a good question. I got my first sewing machine when I got out of the army. In 1972, I got out of the army. I was drafted, '70 to '72. I got out of the army and I stayed in San Francisco. And '72 was like glam rock. And I had to dress like David Bowie every second, and of course I had no money to buy clothes. So, I thought, well I'll make my own clothes. So, I had a friend that had a Singer. And I would sort of hang out with her. And, and, you know, look at Vogue patterns, and, read all about Halston and Saint Laurent, Studio 54. Slowly I began to sew, and then I got a Kenmore. I think it was '72 or '73, I got my first little Sears Kenmore. Great machine. [Female interviewer] And you've kind of just answered this, but when and where did you learn to sew? [Baker] Well, sewing, you know, it's an ancient art, and, um. My grandmother, actually, was a tailor, in a men's clothing store. So, I was always very familiar, with, um, you know, fashion, men's fashion in particular. And the art and high craft of tailor made sewing. It didn't really, ah, become a feature of my life, until, I came out of the closet. Because, for me it was all about ball gowns, and being fabulous and drag queen. And that didn't really go over so well in my, when I was, you know, younger. So, once I was liberated, well, of course, I used the sewing machine as an instrument to express myself. And for me, that's been a blessing. [Female interviewer] Where did you grow up? [Baker] I grew up in Kansas. Right in the middle of the country. Just like Dorothy. Well, not exactly, but. Um, you know, that's another story. I grew up in the Fifties. I grew up, my teen age years in the Sixties. So, I was right at the pivotal moment. The genesis of human rights. The awareness of human rights. And for me that became, you know, very important early on in my life. I remember watching Selma, Alabama. And things going on in the early Sixties. I mean, I was very young. You know, junior high, teenager. And being very moved by that, you know. And then of course, there was the whole explosion of culture, music, The Beatles, The Rolling Stones, the whole way that that changed everything. But, I think, looking back on that time period now, and then I hated it. It was a lot of difficult times for me. But I think the thing that really sticks with me, is like, okay, well, what, what was it that, that set us apart. That made us become who we are, activists, artists. And I think it was dancing. Um, I remember there was a pivotal moment about dancing. And I would go, I think, '63, '64, in there somewhere. And you would go to the high school, the junior high school dance. You had to have a partner. But, all of a sudden, you didn't have to have a partner. And, it was Chubby Checker and "The Twist," and you didn't have to have a partner. So, once dancing became this, this individual thing, I think opened us up to exploring our individual sexuality. And the sexuality and the freedom that dance in particular, brings to us physically. And so, I think that that changed everybody profoundly, once we figured out we didn't have to dance, you know, boy, girl, couple, couple, and you know, started to accept that dance was about the liberation of the body. That, that changed everyone. [Male interviewer] I'm going to take my shirt off because I don't want you to glance over at me. [Baker] Okay, sit over there then. [Male interviewer] It's a little odd. Even if I move my chair. [Baker] I have bad eyes. Are you kidding, I have Rasputin eyes. Please. [Laughs, talking over interviewer] [Male interviewer] I'm going to be so out of, completely out of the picture. [Baker] Okay, okay, good, all right. I'm sorry. Yeah, I have wild eyes. I'm not wearing my glasses, too. [Male interviewer, inaudible] [Baker] Yeah, please do. [Male interviewer, uninteligible] [Female interviewer, unintelligible] It's all good. [Baker] Okay, okay. [Female interviewer] Okay, so, ah, moving forward a little bit, um, from the Fifties and Sixties, I guess. Who came up with the nickname, "the gay Betsy Ross?" Oh, that was immediate. I mean, the day I decided to make a rainbow flag, people were like, "Oh, you're Betsy Ross." Betsy Ross doesn't mean anything to people in Europe. You know, I go to Europe and they love the rainbow flag. They, they say, "gay Betsy Ross," who is Betsy Ross? Because it's just an Americanism. [Laughs] I think it's so funny. And then of course, I know a lot about Betsy Ross. The real Betsy Ross. And that was actually a very interesting myth about Betsy Ross. Betsy Ross was an upholsterer, lived in Philadelphia. At the time of the revolution, a Quaker. Young woman who was self employed. Very unusual. And educated, also very unusual. She had three husbands, all of whom died in the Revolutionary War. Ah, Washington approached her to make the flag, because she ran an upholstery shop, and of course, in those days, this was before sewing machines, everything was done with needle and thread. And so she, reportedly, she made the first American flag. But that did not come to light until almost fifty years after she died in 1830. And it was only during the Centenial of America, a hundred years after the birth of the country, that she was discovered by her grandson, Vincent Camby, who was a writer and gave a very important speech about her to the Daughters of the American Revolution. And, um, they quickly embraced her as the, the female equivalent to George Washington. The father of the country, the mother of the flag. Because that was the moment the suffragette, 1876 I'm talking about here, and a certain momentum became more and more a part of the culture, especially in the United States and England, about suffragetttes and the rights of women. And so they, women, adopted her as this sort of iconic, mythological figure to represent their role, an important one, in the Revolution. And then of course, she exploded into sheet music, and she became an allegorical goddess and this big myth, and you know, You go to grade school and you see the American flag and you go, oh, Betsy Ross. But, in fact, it was Frank Hopkinson, who was the designer of the flag. And he's remembered that way on his tombstone in Philadelphia. Mythology, you know. American history. [Laughs] Betsy Ross. [Female interviewer] Um, describe the process of making the original rainbow flag. There were two. [Baker] Yes. Originally. There were. I wasn't sure people even get that with the flag, quite frankly. Flag poles, I mean, pretty, flags. It was, um. There was a time, of community building, we didn't like flags. Flags were nationalistic. So, it's kind of an anti flag. We wanted something that was you know, familiar. That was, you know, across boundaries. So, there's an old saying, in vexillography. I can't take credit for this. You can't design a flag. A flag is poured from the soul of the people. So, when I decided to make a rainbow flag, I knew exactly what I was doing. Um, you know, I had thought about it. I thought that our, movement could use a flag. That's an important visibility tool. That's a way of claiming power. And, um, I didn't even think twice about what the flag would be. A rainbow fit us. It's from nature. It connects us to, you know, all the colors, all the colors of sexuality, all the diversity in our community. And it really is for everyone, everywhere. And that was always my dream, was that you know, there would be the gay flag if you will. That we really were gonna change the world. To save the planet. [Female interviewer] Would you tell me about, um the difference between those two flags. [Baker] Oh, just one was upside down, and one was another way. [Laughs] And one of them, at the last minute, we, we put a little field of tie dyed stars in. My friend, ah, Faerie Argyle. The tie dye queen of San Francisco came in and, we tie dyed some stars and we sewed them in. Because I thought, well people aren't really gonna get that it's the rainbow flag. They'll get it's the flag, if you put some stars in, so it's like the American flag. But, um, yeah, you know. It was hand made, hand dyed cotton. It was the whole 1978 organic thing. Organic detergent. Crazy. Funny. Beautiful. [Female interviewer] Would you be able to, say that again, but, um, specifically about the fact that it being hand made. And, [Baker] Sure. [Female] use that in a statement. [Baker] Well it was hand made. And, the first flag. That's an important thing. The first flag, is the first flag. And I felt really great about doing that. It's so fun. In fact we made it at the Gay Community Center in San Francisco. Which is important ? got me the ? And I had so much help. Um, you know, my friend, Faerie, as I mentioned came in and do some tye dye put some stars in one to make sure people got, it's a flag. And you know it was just an amazing process of, you know, a thousand yards of cotton that we had to wash several times to get the sizing out. And then, natural organic dyes. That stain you forever when you're using them. And, but, make the most beautiful and vivid colors. And then the fabric, [?] cotton which lasted about a week. [Laughs] But looked like silk, endless hours of ironing, and sewing of course, on a little machine. Stitch, stitch, stitch. So, all through that, I knew, that this was a really special thing. That this was a special, special moment. And um, then when it went up, um, it, was, ah, life changing. [Female interviewer] And um, where did that happen? [Baker] It happened in San Francisco. The rainbow flag was, ah, an evolution of the Gay Pride, or Gay Freedom Day, in those days,as we called it. And the, the celebration's in June, which also is Stonewall, and flags often commemorate rebellions or riots or revolutions. And so, our flag, the rainbow flag, it does connect to the Stonewall, ah, ah, riot, because that's what we celebrate in June. And so it has those roots. And so in '78, you know I lived in San Francisco and in the year '78 it was an incredible place to be. Harvey Milk alive. And my friends. It was an inspiration. ? all of this. It was a kind of incredible empowerment. And politically organizing and community building and artistic expression. And not just mine. So many things. Like the Gay Band started. The choruses. The theaters. It's everything, exploded in 1978. It was just an amazing moment of empowerment. [Female interviewer] And, and is it, is it true that Harvey Milk asked you to be [?] to the community? [Baker] Well, I think people want to, you know, play with that. Well, he was my friend. Ah, I talk to him a lot. I talked to him a lot about the pink triangle. [Female interviewer] Would you say Harvey Milk was a friend of yours? [Baker] Well, Harvey Milk was my friend. And we talked a lot about the pink triangle. Really up until the rainbow flag, the pink triangle was the [?] symbol that we used. Um, but it came from the Nazis. It was put on us. And kind of really horrible. Negative orgin. About murder and the holocaust. Harvey was Jewish. So we were always kind of like, ah, it doesn't really work. I mean, I get it and we want to remember that. But that isn't us. That isn't our soul. That isn't from us. That's put on us. Harvey was always like. Oh, we have to have a new logo. And, and, and, he had a lot of graphic people around him. And then, it was like, oh look. It was the time when every one got a little gizmo. you know like Ma Bell was like a thing. It was very graphic. The explosion of the graphic arts, especially mid Seventies. Then we had to have a logo [?]. I took that to mean more than just a gizmo. Um, ah, we needed a symbol. And flags, in particular, are more powerful than just the average [?] They carry an immense amount of, ah, meaning to every individual. That's what's so great. You project an image of yourself on it. Everyone decides for themselves what that means, and that's an incredible power. [Female interviewer] Um, you just sort of talked a little bit about this, but um, again, just to make sure we have it, for the record, why was it important for a committee? [Baker] Well, it's still important for us to have a symbol. It was important in 1978 becausse we were inventing ourselves. We were setting up our identities if you will. I mean, identity politics, it may be out of fashion now, but, that's a very privileged point of view. Um, the fact is that, um visibility, is where our power starts. And the first visibility is the power of the individual. When you come out of the closet. When you, accept who you are. And you are not living a lie. You are living in the truth. That's us against the world. That's the thing that connects everybody. That's why the flag connects us, because we can all look at that and know that moment when that rainbow makes [?] That, that became, you know, my rainbow and somebody else's rainbow. They don't know anything about me. It's not owned. It's public domain. Intentionally. It's owned by everyone. So, that, you know, a young guy, a transsexual in Blegrade, or some struggling young kid in Moscow, Or even people my age who have lived oppressed all their life, in places like Indonesia and Iran. They can look at that rainbow and know that that belongs to them. That that's visibility and know that that's power. It's a hope. So, you know, it's a special, incredible thing, the rainbow. Um, as a part of nature, it isn't just an advertisement for our political movement. It does connect us to something divine. And we are. We are divine. There's a reason that we're here. There's a reason that this is happening, and, in my mind, it's because we're here, we're here to save the planet. We're here to teach love to the rest of the world. And, we've done a spectacular job in my lifetime with going from that place of the pink triangle from being murdered and victimized and persecuted. To being empowered enough so we can fly the rainbow flag in San Francisco and many places around the world. And you know, you put it up and you say something. It's a direct action that people do, around the world. And it's so, wonderful because other people share it and put the flag up and people passing share that moment to God. I'm taking a sip. [Female interviewer] Let's see. [Baker] How are we doing? Am I talking too fast? [Male interviewer, unintelligible] Do you have a photo of you today? [Baker, sipping coffee] No. Current. No. [Male interviewer] If you had, [Baker, interrupting] I'm sorry. No. [Male interviewer] Okay. [Female interviewer] Okay, let's see here. [Female interviewer] How was the rainbow flag received by the LGBT community and, um, how was it revealed? [Baker] Well, you know, it went up, publicly, on a big flag pole. Thirty by sixty foot. Twice. It was huge. Bigger than any flag ever. You know in San Francisco, and um, immediate. It blew my mind. Totally blew my mind. I had spent all these hours, dying the fabric and sewing. Are they gonna get it, are they gonna get it? Well, they got it. And I just remember, that when it was up in the air, pulling the cables and getting it up in the air. In the morning, just looking around, the people that were there. It was just, honest. You could just look in their eyes and see this just went right to their souls and they just loved it. And that totally changed my whole life. I knew, right at that moment, you know, when the flag went up and I was looking into the eyes of people that were around and seeing their reaction, I thought, Oh my gosh, it's, it's more than I dreamed. You know, it really is an incredible channel if you will. And um, you know, it changed my life. You know. [Female interviewer] So, it was actually, both of them were raised [?] [Baker] No. We raised them up on flag poles [?] And flags should fly. I mean, I love carrying flags and I'm certainly renowned for, you know, my world record displays. Which are too big to fly. But, ah, you know, a flag belongs in the wind. That's what, to me it's kind of the beauty of a flag. Whatever flag. It's the way that cloth and wind interact. It's a kinetic sculpture. It's beautiful. And ancient. From the earliest times. A flag. [Female interviewer] Um, can you talk a little bit about the history of the rainbow in other countries. [Baker] Sure. It goes in every cul, the rainbow is in every culture. Um, The Egyptians, you see it. The Chinese. The Native Americans. It really, the Pacific Islands. It's really everywhere. It's in the Bible. It's in the Bible, Genesis. You know and one of the few instances where God speaks directly. He says, I set my bow in the clouds, it's a covenant between me and all living creatures. Well, we're all living creatures. And I think thats one of the reasons that the religious right has not been able to destroy it. Because the statement is in the Bible. It's from God. And they kind of, you know, wanting to set up their, their borders and boundaries for discrimination but when you look at the truth in the Bible, [?] It's kind of hard to, you know, get around that. So I think that, that's, um, wondrous. And, um, fitting. Rainbow. Um, it's an odd phenomenon. It takes hours to see a rainbow. Does a tree fall in the forest if there's no one to hear it. Does a rainbow happen if no one sees it. And so, it takes hours and the right, you know, combination of sunlight and moisture in the atmosphere to make a prism. And then to take it farther into, you know, Physics, um, light, you know, is, ah, ah, magic, as well. And, um, I think that we're lucky that we have all of those things inside of us. And, it's natural for us to have a rainbow. [Female interviewer] Let's see here. Why did you decide not to copyright the rainbow flag? [Baker] Oh I didn't decide that. Copyrighting the rainbow flag. [Laughs] Oh, if I had my way, [snaps fingers] I'd own this island. We're on Manhattan. No. Flags are public domain. Um, and I didn't really realize that. I didn't do this for money. I meant it to be a political symbol, but, when I saw, immediately, what a hit it was, I mean, within, within five minutes, people were saying, make me one. You know, the first one up the, make me one. Really, it was in a couple of months, I was like oh my God, I'm making all these flags. And I couldn't keep up. And I actually went into the flag industry for a few years. And that's when I found out, oh by the way, flags properly, legally, to be a flag, not to be an advertisement or a banner, but to be a flag, must be in the public domain. And, even though that certainly, you know, put a damper on my [?] enthusiasm for my riches. Um, it's fitting. How would it work if somebody owned it. It's that thing about everyone owning it. You know. It doesn't have a celebrity, um, personality driving it. It's driven by the meaning that it has in each individual. So, I've protected the public do, I embraced that. And I've protected it. People have done sleazy or awful things. I mean, I try, as much as I can. Um, I can't stop people from exploiting the rainbow flag, you know, commercially, you know. It drives me crazy. I see them putting it on advertisements, you know, and they don't give a dime to us, you know. It's, it's just their way of grabbing some gay dollars. That drives me nuts, you know. And then at the same time, I see people, who are other crafts people, you know, making beautiful jewelry or something out there in Vancouver, or, you know, some fabulous costume in Paris or something like that, and your art is your soul. And that's beautiful. That's what it should be. But, I don't have any control. It's public domain, that's what it means, it belongs to everybody. And with that comes good and bad. Female interviewer] Does it bother you that, a single [?] has been proactive or appropriated by commercial companies. [Baker] No. No, it's part of the life of it. I mean, [Female interviewer] Can you state the question in, [Baker] Well, the, the commercialization of the flag, um, does it bother me, mmmm, well, yes and no. Like I said, it bothers me when commercialization is just flat out exploitation. But at the same time, I think that that's part of spreading the message. I mean, you know, I mean, you know organizations use it on their, you know, their rainbow house, or you know, their rainbow, whatever. It's on many, many names of things, has been used that way, on their logos, interpretations. That's beautiful. And you know, and then there are important corporate partners that have had a long history with us, that have embraced human rights. And so, I celebrate that. And I celebrate every business corporate that does embrace us. We've gotten a lot of our civil rights because we first claimed them in the work place. And, you know, union organizing and gay people organizing themselves to be equal in the work place, has moved us forward. To a place where now it's more about marriage and everything. The work place issues are still important. And what drives out of employees and businesses realizing our value. And, and celebrating who we are. So. The commercialization, it's just part of it. It's just, you know, it's the grey hair. [Laughs] It just happens. [Female interviewer] How has the flag, ah, changed very much since the original, the original interpretation I think had eight colors. [Baker] It did. It did have eight colors. [Female] [?] [Baker] The river flag had eight colors. You know, pink for sex. Red for life. Orange for healing. Yellow for sun. Green for nature. Turqouise for magic. Blue for serenity and purple for the spirit. This was your hippie 1978 meanings for [?] Well, first thing was, I would run out of pink fabric. I mean, I literally exhausted the entire supply of pink fabric. And I would go to the flag maker and he says, "No flag has pink." "What are you talking about? Gay flag." And it's like, no, it's got pink. So I had to make a compromise. At first it was eight colors. And also remember, that I wanted it to be a flag. And remember the flag is a symbol that needs to be interpreted in other ways beside cloth. And in those days, um, four color printing was really expensive. And you know, six color, eight color printing was really difficult. So, I quickly compromised. Once I went into the flag industry, to the six color version and I call it the commercial version, because, it was possible to reproduce it, ah, in print. And it was possible to produce it in a way that people could afford it. But then twenty years later, technology catches up and all of a sudden, I've got dyes in a thousand colors, no problem. And you know, better machineary. Better, you know, silk. And, so, slowly I've been bringing it back. But, somebody told me, "Don't step on your own dress." [Laughs] So. So, the eight colored ones you see, are pretty much ones that I personally have made. I sort of use that as my, as my signature for my original art. And then I make six colored ones as well. And so it did have that. And then of course it changed from me. You know, hand dyed. You know, hand made to, I mean, ah, better nylon to last, sort of the function of a flag. And now to, you know, full silk, you know, polyester explosion coming from Hong Kong and prison factories in China. Which bothers me, but you can't control that. So, it has evolved. [Coughs] Excuse me. [Female interviewer] When did the flag from San Francisco become a national? [Baker] Pretty quick. San Francisco in 1978, by the next year, and and begin to filter out of San Francisco. and, and Los Angeles. And, and came to New York. '80, '79, '80 It began to [?] out. Pretty quickly. Really, in the terms of the flag, um, those first years were exciting because it was just about getting manufactured. It took me ten years, ten years to get the flag manufactured. The street association. The world association. It took me ten years. To get five manufacturers to call it the gay flag. What is it. It's the gay/lesbian flag. [?] They finally decided, ten years. You know, I'd have the good old boy flag company, "Gay flag, no way!" "Stars and Stripes aren't good enough for you?" I'm like, well, mmm, yeah, I like that flag, I love that flag, this is another flag. Took a long time to get, to get, ah, respected, by the industry. So that it could be commercially produced in a way that would satisfy the demand. I mean, I would go into meetings saying, "Trust me, people will buy them." And they wouldn't. I had to tell them straight, over and over again, the power of our market. So as a, marketing person, um, the rainbow flag is fascinating, because, um, it's, I, you know, I consider myself to be an authority about gay marketing, because I've watched what I've made become huge and interpreted. And, and then, directly, without marketing, make sure there are what are there today, twenty, thirty million flags existing in the world. I mean, that's astounding. That's just flags. That doesn't count advertising or images or, you know, the photographs people take at the parade. Or the costumes at the beach, or any of that. Just flags. So it took a long time. And then it took until, um 1994, when I did the mile long flag in New York City. That was a world record. That was the biggest flag in the world. At the end of the march, ah, past the United Nations and going up to Central Park, I had thought of everything, except about what to do with it, after it was over. We were going to cut pieces up and people had given some money to some AIDS charities and they got a commemorative piece, but it was a mile long. It was a lot of flag. So I literally had teams of people, just, running through it with scissors. Chunking it. Handing off pieces, to people, you know, somebody from London, was a friend. Here, take this to London. Here, take this, you know, to Hong Kong. Take this to El Salvador. I was literally, just chunking it up, handing it out, take it. Take it. And that really, sent it world wide. The event at [?], a big celebration, Stonewall 25 in New York, and there was a lot of, you know, marketing power, a lot of corporate money in those days. And the Gay Games was there. There was a whole explosion of stuff. So. And people came here from all around the world. So when they went back they [?] what they brought with them. It was already in London and Paris and Berlin, big cities, it was already there, but, But when 1994 happened, after that it really became ubiqutous. It was just astounding. Reaching places I never dreamed, you know. Russia. Really deep eastern Europe. And even the East. [?] [Male interviewer] You were [Unintelligible] [Female interviewer] Yeah, that's right. [Baker] Okay. [Female interviewer] Yeah, um well, we'll continue first with kind of the flag's [?] What do you think about the flag and how has it changed as an art [?] over the years. [Baker] Very little, I mean, as an actual thing. Really it's pretty simple. It's some fabric, you know, with colors that go together, that's about it. Uh, it hasn't really changed, I mean. The meanings have changed. You know, in the beginning, it was gay. And then in 1978 there were like, there's an, gay/lesbian Women wanted their worth and wanted their identity and they fought for it. In the gay movement, I'm talking about. And so it became gay/lesbian, lesbian/gay Years later, bisexual, years later, transgender. All of them, expanding, the spectrum, if you will, of our movement. All of them claiming, if you will, a color, if you will. And um, that's really cool. Because like I said at the beginning, it was made for everyone, you know, not just my particular brand of sexuality or yours, but that's the great thing about a rainbow, it's like, all of the colors. So this isn't just gay colors, [?] colors, it's infinite colors. And that's what we all intuitively love about it. My one little [?] in life is there's meaning in the rainbow that God put in the sky. So that's fabulous. [Female interviewer] [?] are from places that aren't allowed to fly the rainbow flag or even some in this country too that [?] [Baker] Oh yeah. Female interviewer] Um, talk to me about that [?] [Baker] Sure. Yeah, I get people, you know, calling, I get a lot of emails from around the country and around the world. And I put a rainbow flag up on my house and got vandalized. You know, I wore a rainbow flag Tshirt to school and they sent me home. Or you know I put a rainbow flag sticker on my car and the windshield got broken. I mean, like I said, this is a direct visibility action. You put a flag up and you wear it, you're saying something. You're doing something. You're saying this is who I am. This is what I'm about. That makes you a target. Not everywhere, but that's, part of what you're, you're part of the price of visibility. And so sure, [?] that, you know, and it's sad. It's, I mean, it can be, um, tragic, even violent. And, um, And that makes me angry. And, but, at the same time, it kind of validates, you know, the people that have the courage to do that. The people that stand up. Um, they're moving it forward. So even if they hate people out there. They know what they're hating. You know. So that visibility is, ah, is, ah, the way that we confront them, peacefully. The way we spurn violence. Is to stay visible. [Female interviewer] Um, I heard you say in an interview [?] two sides can never be designed to have [?] [Baker laughs unintelligible] So grand. [?] [Laughs] [Female interviewer] Can you, um, restate that and tell me what it means other than demonstrations [?] [Baker] Well, I just said, it comes from us. So, the flag is this thing that we share. You know, it's meaning may be different to me than to you. It's individual is infinite individuality of our sexuality. So. But that we can look at that and know that's what that's about is very cool. It's actually, something that words will never capture, the flag is it's own thing, So, you know, I can try and express it in words, but it will never have the power of the actual flag flying. And what the meaning that has to the person who put it up and the people seeing it. It's not a word thing. It's an art. [Male and female interviewers confer, unintelligible] [Baker] What happened? The refrigerator? Oh my God. The systems are going. [Male interviewer, unintelligible] [Baker] Okay, take it away. [Male interviewer, unintelligible] [Baker] Are we good? [Female interviewer] Good. So, um, you were just telling me about [?] [Baker] Yeah, it's an art thing. It's not a word thing. Flags are their own trip. They're their own media, if you will. It's not a language. It transcends language. That's why it works in America and it works in Budapest and it works in Brazil and it works in Japan. And the rainbow, as I mentioned, is also cross cultural. It goes deep in every culture, so that we claimed it and turned it into a flag is really fabulous, I mean, Um, we own some choice real estate when it comes to iconography. We have something, fantastic and beautiful and magical. [Female interviewer] You mentioned this idea a couple times as well, why did you go [?] [Baker] Because of power. [Female interviewer] Can you state visibility as a question. Visibility, is important actually. It, ah, that was terrible. Cut. Visibility is important because of power. Visibility is an individual act. Ah, like I said, it starts with the individual coming out. That's the thing that connects it. Connects art through all the diversity. From generation to generation. Is that moment that we all share when, all of a sudden, we realize who we are. that I'm a gay person, or I'm a lesbian, this is who I am. And we accept that, and we love that. That moves the world forward. In, in a lot of places, people know they're gay, but they never tell anyone. They'll be killed. In a lot of places, people know who they are and they are living in secret but they're living in prison. Safe, sanctioned, violence, safe, sanctioned. Oppression. So, visibility is really the seat of our power. If it wasn't for people standing up. You know, Stonewall bar. Saying, No, wait a minute, this is wrong. This is who I am. I have a right. If it wasn't for that, we would be invisible. Because we're everybody. We're in every group. We're in every race. We're part of every community. [?] Queer people just use big words. Um, claim of visibility, that's, wait a minute, we are different. We aren't just like you. We have this thing. Really, that's the only thing we really do have in common with them. Is the way we have, is sex. I think really, we're very different from the rest of the world. And I think that that's worth celebrating, I think that that's worth, ah, ah, fighting for. Because, ah, I don't accept the world that I was born into. I don't accept oppression. I don't accept violence. I don't accept war. Those things are wrong. The reason gay people are here and the reason that we are visible today, massively, around the world, and more and more and more in every way, every where, is because, like I said, because we're here to do something. If we're a movement, we have to move something. We have to change something. And that means, together we're changing our world, our planet. From a place of hate and violence and war, to a place of love and diversity and acceptance. And that, is why we're here. I mean, that's the big long rainbow. From before me, to well after me. And, you know, we're all part of that. And that is why visibility, that, that personal moment of claiming who you are, is so important. And then, if you're able to, I mean, people, um, have, you know, found fantastic ways of expressing themselves in the most profound art. I mean, I have so many heroes in the art world, I can't even list them for you. That have inspired me, that have taught me, that have educated me. And, so, once you know who you are, then you're free to, um, explore that, and to become whoever you are and to participate more fully as a world citizen, and, and do the good work of, of moving our society, you know, toward a more just place. [Female interviewer] Thank you. Ummm. This segment is for the Fortieth anniversary of Stonewall [Baker, talking over] Oh yeah. [Female interviewer] this year. [Baker interrupting] Oh my God, I have something. Stop. Hold the presses. Okay. Over there. Stop. Over there. I'll save it. Over there, on the sort of lower shelf. See, this rack right here. Over there. Go over there. [Male interviewer] Yes. yes, okay. [Baker] Go over there. [Male interviewer] Okay. [Baker] On the shelf. [Male interviewer] On this side, or that side? [Baker] That side. [?] You're going to get it from there. [Baker] You'll see some red fabric there. [Male] Okay, yeah. [Baker] It's heavy. Just pick up that whole bundle and bring it to me. Put it right here on the table. I know [?] [Female interviewer] Awww. [Male interviewer] What is that? [Baker] Just bring it to me. Now this, is [?] Now this is, fortieth anniversary. This is a banner that I'm making, still underway. Check it out. The ruby anniversary. Fortieth anniversary. The ruby anniversary of [?] So, I'm making this fabulous banner for, heritage pride. Isn't that beautiful. So, I'm making this beautiful ruby red banner. For [laughs] use for the gay pride parade. [Male interviewer] Actually can we get you saying that without it and later what we'll do is, we'll have you looking at it. [Baker] Okay. Okay, okay, okay. I'm sorry. That's really, That banner is fab, is nice. That's a Gilbert banner. [Laughs] [Male interviewer and Baker talking over each other] [Baker] I'm sorry. Got carried away. [Female interviewer] The question was actually, um, are you doing anything special for the fortieth anniversary of Stonewall? [Baker] A little. I'm, um, you know, I'm not making a mile long flag. The millions are gone now that the banks are closing. [Female interviewer] Can you, can you just restate what you're planning for the Fortieth anniversary? [Baker] For the Fortieth anniversary of Stonewall. Well, ah, I'm not making a mile long flag, because the millions are gone now that the banks downtown. And sponsors, um. But I am sewing. I'm never gonna stop that. So, I decided to make banners. To make, in the old school, in my beautiful, you know, Gilbert fabulous glamour way. Banners. Ah, street banners. Like I'm making a fantastic one for Heritage of Pride. And the ruby anniversary. So, it's a fabulous ruby sequined, diamond thing, you know. A banner to blow your eyes off, five blocks away. And, um, I celebrate, ah, people that organize pride and many, many groups. So, this year, it's all about making exquisite, fabulous banners for groups and causes that I really embrace and believe in. Kind of, a little home spun you know. [Female interviewer] And what about the mile long flag in 1994, can you tell me why 1994 was important and then talk a little bit about how that came together. [Baker] Well, let's see, 1994. 1994. 1994. 1994 was the 25th anniversary of Stonewall. It's kind of a, a marker. The 25th anniversary. The silver anniversary. And it came just a year or so after a big march on Washington. 1993 or something. So, there was this big, ah, enthusiasm for big mass events. And of course, I'm a, a total sucker for the biggest rock show ever. So, um, I, wanted to do something. In New York. I'd never been there. And I wanted to do something wonderful for New York. And, ah. I just said that I would make the biggest flag in the world. And put it to my skills as an Imagineer. You know, engineering and imagination. And I figured out how to do that. And then luckily, Cleeve, my good friend, Cleeve Jones, ah, had a connection to a pharmacy that was looking to do massive gay marketing and had money, and that certainly got the ball rolling, and and then, I just, you know, made it happen. I sewed it up. And thousands of people carried it, and off it went into the history books. It was pretty amazing. Fun. I threw that, ah. I love New York. I admit I got off the airplane from San Francisco and I had a great life in San Francisco, but I got off the airplane in New York, and fell in love. And, I knew I was going to live their forever. So, you know, that, it changed me. In the sense that, it was a sort of, evolution of my own, artistic career. My skills, my interests, sort of evolved, by coming to New York. I became more world aware. And then, from New York I've been able to explore more of the world. I never lost my San Francisco hippie roots. [Laughs] You can see it in my hair. [Laughs] But, yeah, no, it was fun. You know, it was a gimmick. Cleve and I are geniuses at making, ah, media, irresistable tech. And you know, um, it needed it, we, it was an important story. But we needed something that would go everywhere. And, you know, a picture goes everywhere. And I knew that that was, the scale of the flag would certainly be a, an important aspect to the overall communication of what that event was about. And it worked. You know, brilliantly. I mean, for me it was all about, the dream, you know, sketching paper and all the math that goes into it and all the incredible, [coughs] you know, time, skills, labor, money and just all of the things that are needed to put something like this together. But it's also this one moment. That, you know, I dreamed way long time ago. And, you know, there I am, I'm watching it on, I remember running home, from Central Park, and turning on the, the television, right at the moment they had the big aerial shot, coming up, da, dat, da, dat, "Peter Jennings, live from New York!" And I'm, there he is! That moment. And then later I see, you know, somebody running up to me at eleven o'clock at night, waving a New York Times. And my God, it's like five columns wide. And past the fold, you know. [Laughs] And, and I knew that. I knew that was what I wanted to do. It was more than just making the flag. It was about making a flag, that would become the vehicle for this incredible media visibility. That would send a message world wide. So, I felt very, ah, fulfilled as an artist I was able to do that. [Female interviewer] Where were you when it was being carried? [?] [Baker] No, actually, I was. Sure, I mean, I kind of operated it. Kind of like a big snake, if you will, five thousand people, a mile long, you couldn't even see the end of it, it weighed thousands of pounds. It's actually about operating it from the beginning, from the moment that it's unfolded and handed to people. And the same thing happened in Key West. By then I had a little more experience in how to operate it. But it really is about the unfolding moment, and I, I remember, we had packaged it very carefully. I spent a lot of time studying, um, fire hoses. The way fire departments, use hoses, and, and deploy them into long lines to fight fires, I studied that immensely. How does this work. Inspect the model. So, we bundled it up with little, ah, strings and tied thousands of bows. Had to be a bow, so you could just, pop, pop. And, you know, every few feet, as we laid it and folded it. So then, here's the big moment, and it's unfurling, and we're going, pull, pull, pull, pull. Little strings, it's fabulous. It's flowing out. It's about five blocks down the road. You can't even see it anymore. And all of a sudden, it has a life of it's own. Because people are just grabbing on and, the people pulling it, or carrying it, as it were, and people coming up. And within, I don't know, ten, fifteen minutes. All control was over. We just stood back as it came tumbling out of the truck, and all the little bows were pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop. And people were grabbing it and carrying it up the street. So, you know, it was, ah, something wondrous, ah, to be part of. And then, as we, ah, got it up to the, ah, the end, ah, I think 57th Street or something like that. Um. We had unfurled it, you know. I had my friend up in the helicopter. Hey Mac! You know, and all the news media. You know, that he's going to get those great aerials and the images. And, once he was done, though really, I was, I think, in front of the U.N. And there's a sequence where actually, everyone should recognize me in. And, um, I cut it. I went right through it, with a pair of scissors. Oh my God. And then, um, moving back to the beginning of it. And, and then other people begin to cut pieces more toward 57th. And, I began to just chunk it up. And then, sent pieces over to Fifth Avenue. Where there was an alternative march. Because my dream wasn't First Avenue. My dream was Fifth Avenue. To really make sure I had the dream that I wanted realized. I sent my, you know, gorilla, you know with girl friend power every step of the way. Mmmmm, I sent maybe a block and half of it over to Fifth Avenue. Where it sort of reconstituted. So that it could pass in front of St. Patrick's Cathedral. Which for me was the big mind [?] The big us and them contro, message. And so New York, iconic. And, um, it was great fun. And then, ah we got that. You know, that's what I saw on Peter Jennings. I didn't see First Avenue, they showed that later. The first thing they showed was that aerial shot over Fifth Avenue, coming up over Saint Patrick's Cathedral. And lo and behold, there was enough flag to fill the frame. A block of flag, something like that. And then, you know, we carried it into Central Park. You know, I layed in the arms of my boyfriend all afternoon. You know, it was, it was pretty fun. [Laughs] So. Yeah, it was a good memory for me to have. Um, ah, special. I mean, I live such a crazy life and really my particular vantage point is so unique. I feel pretty lucky. That I got to live it. And fantastic photographs. And me and my friends shared that with me. You know. [Female interviewer] Was, um. Was that when you were telling us the other day, was that the flag when that was coming out, or was that in another country that there was actually something violent that sort of happened? [Baker] Oh, that was later, yeah. Um. 2003, I sort of did it again. I created an even bigger one, it was eight colors. Ahh. In Key West. to get from the Gulf of Mexico to the Atlantic Ocean. Sea to sea. Everyone told me I was crazy. I had a hard time getting sponsors. Absolut jumped in, bless them. But people were like, what are you doing in this nowhere town at the end of the world. I'm like, no it's going to be cool gonna be into oceans. Gonna be like, And it was. It was fabulous. And at the end of that one, I had it more together. This time I had already pre cut it and then sewed it back together, so it could come apart in beautifully finished sections. So it could be sent to two hundred cities around the world. But I sent a thousand foot section of it over to Stockholm. and, and, and, ah, you know, they had a great gay pride, hundreds of thousands came in, more than they ever had, and, and It was good. We carried it to get the big money shot, you know, in front of the royal palace in Stockholm, the city of water. And the Royal Palace is really good [?] And a shot of Stockholm. And we did, we carried it past, you know, thousands of people carrying it, so happy and wonderful, and you know, and really giving a great, um, deal of respect and honor to my work, and. So, it was thrilling. And just was like, you know, just a half a mile past or something. And the police came up to me, going, "Are you okay? Are you okay?" I'm like, this is great, it's fabulous. Sweden, I love Sweden. He said, "Oh, okay good. Just." Turns out, they were on their way to rescue, ah, one of the people who was carrying the flag, at the very end of it. And, um, sort of got lost in the, in the, sort of, space between the big giant flag and whatever the next thing in the march was. At that moment, um, in the crowd, a mob of young skinheads, Nazis, came running down from, sort of his side of the palace. Into the parade, marched through, and beat him up. In front of everyone. It was a total act of complete terror against gay people. And it was astounding. And, hundreds of them. Beating one person up to a bloody pulp. Broke his jaw. He almost died. He almost died. And, um, And no one could stop it. And no one could stop it. People would run in to try and, you know, pull them off. They would get beat up too. It was only when the police finally were able to get involved and get them away. It blew my mind. It blew my mind. Ah. Sorry. [Female interviewer, inaudible] [Baker] [?] four times and it will go away. Are we doing okay? [Male interviewer, unintelligible] [Baker] [?] Five minutes is to five hours. [Male interviewer] Yes. [Baker laughs] Yeah, I should be able to manage, um Stockholm. Um. You'd think a place like Sweden with all it's great history and all of the important pioneers of human rights. [?] Others. That, that would be a place of great freedom and safety, but, that's not true. Even in Sweden. And I saw that a lot in Europe. Um, in Eastern Europe. Which I obviously exploit? But I know about it. And there is a great concern. That there's organizing hate campaigns against us. Nazis. In Europe that are like the clan, they want to get us. Murder us. Bothersome. So, you know, experience enough first hand. I saw it in Rome. It was in Rome WorldPride. I wanted to be part of that, um. And again, because it was about confronting the Vatican. The Italian organizers were kind of crazy. They were like, "Oh it's going to be a big march, we're gonna have floats." I knew that Rome was like, like America in the Fifties, all run by drag queens and the mob. So, why [?] all the queens down. It's like no velvet ropes [?] everywhere. And the mob people were pretty nice. But, emerging communities, then they get a Stonewall moment. And we kept saying, well, yeah it's a march. But this is about confronting the Vatican, this is Rome, it's about the church. And it took a lot of, ah, very patient and, ah, very skilled public relations on our part to make that work. And it did. Brilliantly. Um. A million people showed up. The Vatican fought us everyday in the newspapers. We'd get a contract, we'd close tomorrow. We'd have a party, no you can't be here. Everything was [?]. It was really hard to organize anything. If I can do it in Rome, I can do it anywhere. But we had a conference. And we had a [?] It was one of the first times ever that we had a big world wide conference with delegates from around the world and, um, um, ah, Amnesty International came. Twenty five Americans were working on Amnesty International. Cynthia Rothschild from Amnesty came. It was so thrilling. This is an amazing moment, we're really, you know, coming together as a world community. It's a world message, finally Amnesty International. Then we all go have lunch in the Piazza. And we come back to the hotel and the police are everywhere. And I'm like, what's going on. Oh, um, just go inside. And so as we sort of got up to where the hotel was, There's a mob of people in black shirts. I swear to God, black shirts. Full tilt, Italian Fascists. Sieg Heil! Kill fags. Right in front of the hotel. They had barricades, the police and everything. And they were there. You know, to make that message. And so I saw it in Rome, I've seen it in Sweden, certainly exists in Germany, France. It's just. Sadly, everywhere, even in the U.S., you know, we have our 40th anniversary of Stonewall and you know that'll be in New York, and in many cities across the U.S. But there will be people there who hate us. And, you know, advocating a violent, um, solution for us. And that's a problem. That's something we have to face, and we have to fight. And it's complicated because we don't want to throw away our own right of free speech, our own rights. But at the same time, I don't want, you know, to see them prevail just to deny them violence. So, it's a complicated thing. So, that's why again visibility, masked visibility is sort of critical. Because it, um, gives people hope. You know when they see a million peole marching, you know, in New York, it gives ten people that are marching in Chicago, hope. And, you know, when they see a hundred thousand people marching in a place like Albany or some place like that, it's amazing. You know, it really, it sends the message of hope. And when you're there. I get so tired of people saying, "Oh, I'm so over the Gay Pride Parade, I'm not going this year. It's so boring." Okay, I get it, it's been xeroxed, it's been done. But you go to Gay Pride, to be with your people. It's important to show up for yourself and for your people. Because when you go, that gives you power. You know who they are, maybe you don't like all of them, and maybe they're, you know, elements of the community that you may find disagreeable. But you go there and you're part of it because it's all of us. And I think that that little bit of time that we share together, in the moment, um, is, um, you can't buy that. You can't make that up. That happens because people do it and that is, ah, more than visibility. That is power.