In the Life: Ep. 1707, "Challenging Convention"

on this month's in the life talking gay issues with kids what's really beautiful about this book is that it's really just about animals who want to become a family social rebellion in Poland a different kind of camp this Campground is my family my community and Kathleen Turner and Edward Alby stay tuned for these compelling stories about the gay experience in the life is funded in part by the H vanan amaran foundation and by Arcus foundation and by Collingwood foundation and these funders and by the annual support of in the Life members like you [Music] welcome to in the life I'm Michael Billy in this episode we have quite a diverse collection of stories including a very special interview director author and star of stage and Screen Kathleen Turner sits down with a true Titan of the theater World dramatist Edward Alby we'll get a rare look at what it's like to come out in Poland during the ultra conservative kachinsky Brothers Reign from Warsaw we'll take you to Royal Pennsylvania to experience the world of gay camping but first we visit a Massachusetts classroom and explore the controversial children's book and Tango makes three this is a book about families that we're going to read today okay you know that one all right all right let's all settle down so we can begin this book is called called and Tango makes three it's by Justin Richardson and Peter Parnell and it's illustrated by Henry Cole and Tango makes 3 is the true story of two male penguins in the Central Park Zoo who pair bonded and uh were together for a number of years and uh built a nest together in 2003 New York Central Park Zoo announced that two of its male chinstrap penguins Roy and Silo were a couple we were reading the newspaper and having breakfast one morning and we saw this article that Denisha Smith had written called love the love that dare not squeak its name and uh I said Peter you have to you have to hear this story let me read you this story and I started to read it to him across The Breakfast Table and there was something about what it sounded like to be reading this story aloud that made it feel like it was a children's story and in the penguin house there are penguin families every year at the same time the girl Penguins start noticing the boy Penguins and the boy Penguins start noticing the girl Penguins when the right girl and the right boy find each other they become a couple oh kids you know around this age s eight years old the idea of romance is um they tend to be a little squeamish about it they sort of just don't want to go there a little bit different when it moved on and Roy and Silo had hooked up as a couple and they were making their little Nest that was they were fine with all of that Roy and Silo were both boys but they did everything together they bowed to each other and walked together they sang to each other and swam together wherever Roy went Silo went too they didn't spend much time with the girl Penguins and the girl Penguins didn't spend much time with them instead Roy and Silo wound their necks around each other the Zookeeper Mr gramy noticed the two penguins and thought to himself they must be in love one of the things that we say in the book is uh and the Zookeeper Mr Gray thought to himself they must be in love and Rob gray loves the book and was delighted by it um but after it came out he called and he said you know I just have one concern I don't think I really would have said they must be in love I would have said they must have pair bonded and I thought yeah that's right you know because he saw their behavior for what it was and uh we had considered saying it was peir bonding in the book but for a 4-year-old we felt we needed to be as clear as possible Roy and Sila watched how the other penguins made a home so they built a nest of stones for themselves every night Roy and silos slept there together just like the other penguin couples what's really beautiful about about this book is that it's really just about animals who want to become a family some might be right some might have white skin some might have black skin okay so that would kind of go along with what shyamal was saying about how you might have families with all different kinds of nationalities different cultures different languages some might be divorced some might be raised by a grandma some might have two moms all different kinds of families some might even have two dads some might have two J like I and some might have two moms and some might have Grandma and foster parents mhm they're very eager to relate their own family situations to it so when you have discussion about family diversity what you do need to be prepared for discussion about is things like divorce because that affects just about every classro in America if their families are in the midst of a divorce one of the big anxieties that they have is who will take care of me will my parents still love me and for kids that's what's most important important about parents is not what parents look like not what the parents' names are but that there will be parents there and that security of knowing this parent will always love me and this parent will always take care of me so I think that kids can relate to the Roy and Silo characters and see that they're very good parents Roy and Silo had no egg to sit on and keep War War they had no baby chick to feed and cuddle and love their nest was nice but it was a little empty Jaz does um Roy know that um H is it h syo um Silo was a boy I think so I think they just like each other and they want to be a couple do you think that that might help them figure out why they're not having eggs and chicks why do you think they're not having eggs and chicks um because I think boys don't have chicks and only girls have chicks one of the biggest challenges that teachers face in relation to talking about gay and lesbian issues in elementary school is self-censorship and certainly there are districts and there are states that are less supportive about teachers is bringing up these issues or being straightforward about these issues in their classrooms but the biggest issue I think is self-censorship where teachers feel like I don't want to open that can of worms I don't want to go there and what the reason that teachers often sensor themselves is what they're afraid of is that kids will start to ask questions about sexuality but you know a lot of times when a little child asks you you know Mommy where did I come from they don't want the nitty-gritty details they really don't you know a lot of times they want to know what city they were born in so if you have a book like Cinderella which is you know this heterosexual classic story at the end it says you know they got married and lived happily ever after and parents and teachers don't worry about first and second graders saying well when they got married then what did they do in the bedroom on their honeymoon kids don't ask that question that's one of the things that we think is most helpful about this book is that if a parent were to sit down and read read it they would see it's not about sexuality it's not about sex it's actually about two birds that bonded to one another and had a very strong instinct to have a child um there's nothing in that lesson that's inappropriate for kids of any age one day Ro Roy found something that looked like what the other Penguins were hatching and he brought it to their nest was only a rock when Soo got for many kids I think the fact that they're both boy Penguins is kind of interesting and incidental but the cool thing is that there were these two penguins and they really really wanted to hatch a chick like all the other families were and wow they were able to do it and they were a family and they were a good family crack out came their very own baby she had Tango topped the list of the American Library association's most challenged books of 2006 we'll call her Tango Mr gram said because it takes two to make a Tango recently the authors read from their book in Chicago as part of band books week pengu P this is a year in which our book has been pulled from library shelves or hidden from children's view in which a teacher's job was threatened and a school superintendent grilled by parents for sharing our book with students by standing out in Public Square in Chicago and reading our book to anybody who walks by we're trying to support um those schools and those libraries that are under strong criticism in their communities you know I don't believe in banning books or burning books I believe in thinking critically with kids about the content of books parents or teachers have a concern or they notice something about a book it's an opening for a conversation you know parent might say oh that surprised me I didn't know boy Penguins would exhibit that kind of mating behavior towards each other I didn't know that that happened in nature tell us who's in your family Steven this is my this is my dad this is this is my mom one of the things that the challenges has also sort of brought into public discussion is the fact that there are families like this in the country this is my mom and my dog and one house and this is me and my sister or between the two houses cuz I live in two separate houses in many schools across their country there are two mom or two dad families or one lesbian mom families or one gay dad families or any combination of those if we understand that there's a significant percentage of the population that is gay or lesbian they're out there they're in people's families and they shouldn't have to hide and kids shouldn't have to hide that reality they should just feel comfortable with it so as teachers we can really create caring communities in our classrooms where kids feel that who they are is okay and the people who love them are fine people draw a handsome guy right [Music] there you got a big birthday coming up ho as we say in New York in New York which means which means they I'm finally going to be 70 yes very good you're lying I know your humor your sense of humor and you're sardonic and your almost absurdist at times does that improve with age damn well better Well yeah if you lose your sense of humor then um you're not going to find the Necessary Things funny about getting to be 80 that's funny you know so you've had um some serious reactions and uh to a lot of your work uh some good and some not some good and some pretty rotten too yeah um I was thinking specifically about the pit prize for Virginia wolf which they took away which they took away yeah but that was okay you I got more mileage out of having that prize taken away than I I would if I just left it with me yeah well you're not advocating bad publicity is better than none of course what other pieces have suffered in that way well um after I wrote who's Afraid of Virginia wolf which got you know eventually a lot of good the first some of the first reviews from the those daily newspapers that don't exist anymore like the mirror and and those things uh they were pretty bad you know play that should be seen only by dirty-minded women or somebody else called it a garbage dump now there have been questions throughout the history of Virginia wolf and others that um that it was originally based on homosexual partners that meant to be play about two gay two gay couples yes and I can remember what you said to me about it but well that was so silly you know I'm quite capable of writing a play about gay people if I want to I've done it uh but those two was two straight couples it was not everybody knew I was gay and so obviously all these okay therefore he must be disguising yes uh the uh what he's doing right some kind of subversive message but that was uh there were a couple of critics it there were a couple of critics who were very famous for their homophobia and they were really slamming at a lot of us but then the reviews got okay and we had we had a decent run with that play but so you're right who's Afraid of Virginia wolf you know what you're expected to write next son of who's Afraid of Virginia wolf of course or you know who's of Virginia wolf 2 and then I had three absolute disaster commercial disasters uh I did an adaptation of James P's wonderful novel Malcolm which was greatly admired by two people James fie and me and that was just about it I wrote a play about um theater journalism and critics called the man who had three arms yeah that they didn't like that very much either what a surprise what a surprise and and another one that got blasted and all of a sudden I couldn't get a production in New York very interesting about you know 15 years after Virginia wolf I couldn't get a production in New York I was having Productions in Europe all the time sure and around the country but I was totally personed on GR in New York because I didn't write son of who was afraid of Virginia wolf basically but then things started to turn around again and and now for a little while they're being nice to me don't know why they're being lovely to you Edward yeah I know must be your age it probably is yeah be nice to the old guy right yeah right between 2005 and 2007 Poland's Ultra conservative leaders the kachinsky brothers made life difficult for people who chose to come out publicly homophobia was further fueled when warsaw's gay rights March was first banned in 2005 despite the ban thousands defied the prohibition this next story explores the difficulties of standing up for gay rights and being visible in Poland warsa the capital of Poland a country of nearly 40 million at least a few hundred thousand gays and lesbians are estimated to live in Poland a vast majority of them are still in the closet [Music] within the past several months a number of Polish celebrities among them artists and journalists have publicly come out as homosexuals one of them is yakob a 30-year-old radio journalist okay K the for [Music] fore for a ga have been a couple for over 10 years since Ana got fired from a teaching position after publicly announcing her homosexuality she and IGA have been two of the most involved gay and lesbian rights activists in Poland [Music] h for homosexualism h in 2005 twin brothers Le and Yos kachinski came to power as president and prime minister of Poland a few months earlier as mayor of Warsaw Le kachinski banned the equality parade stating I don't prohibit people demonstrating a Citizens I prohibit people demonstrating as homosexuals despite the ban gays and lesbians marched with police protection from right-wing counter demonstrators for for for [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] than [Music] [Music] for for [Music] [Music] interesting com [Music] or for for [Music] [Music] the [Music] the [Music] [Music] for fore [Music] [Music] for [Applause] [Music] for for for [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] h [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] will foreign spee fore [Music] n [Music] [Music] where do you get your inspiration sir uh I usually say it's connect uh we're going to let that one go I don't know I'm I'm a I'm a writer therefore I write I'm a playright therefore I write plays if you write plays you're supposed to have ideas for plays I discover every 6 months or so that I'm thinking about a play that I plan to write I don't know much about it and I I leave it alone we've always had your characters find their own words in some way of course I have to know the characters so well that I can convince myself that they are talking I will go to to a string quartet and listen listen to some bethoven or something and I will start hearing lines from this play that I want to write that's something I always fascinated you me that right at the beginning of rehearsals for Virginia wolf you had said that you uh had wanted to be a composer M and so you heard scenes and as movements you know as Andante or lent or you know all this sort of stuff and that in fact you could close your eyes and listen to how the play went and know if it was on track if it was right exactly if the passage was in tune or on beat a play is three things it's a piece of literature it is also a scene a visual experience yes uh and it's also a heard experience Oh indeed and so a playright notates exactly uses punctuation exactly the way a composer notates what about all the changes you've seen in the New York theatrical scene over the years God don't you think there have been it's a completely different atmosphere of course a totally different atmosphere um that awful thing called Commerce so completely taken over the problem about live theater is it cost so damn much to put on so what's happening is we're not getting the complexity of the audience that we really need no not at all we're getting rich people and most people aren't writing specifically or only for that audience no they're writing to be produced yeah but here's the problem um more and more young playwrights are being said we're going to have a try out and we're going to try out your play we're going to have a reading of your play and and gee and then we'll tell you what we want you to do with it you know if it's a tough play we'll ask you to soften it a little bit oh I know that you know take down all all the rough edges so it can't hurt anybody yeah could you be just as awful and as wicked and nice love it at its complete length but don't you think it should be a half hour shorter and stuff like that people need to get home and the problem is uh it's tougher and tougher for Young Writers to get their work done and more and more of them are being asked to compromise even even before the fact more commercial yeah of course safer easier an audience that goes to the theater for escapism is a different audience the one that goes to engage in thinking about stuff so why don't you write moris k is cuz I don't know how to do it I know is that great you know you know the only reason half of us don't sell out is because we don't know how I I agreed I agreed agreed so what are you doing next well I have a memoir coming out called you already done that the book about yes that's finished and it's coming out next week I have the Crimes of the Heart opening this week uh in the summer I'll be teaching again for NYU mhm in the fall I hope to be back on stage on Broadway I've been calling up producers and saying I'm free hey and what's going to happen do you know yet or you don't want to tell well I wouldn't mind a comedy do you know I mean you just did one it was called Virginia I did I did I did but everybody's been after me for sweet bird of Youth now frankly I don't need two such women back to back no I'd really like a break in between those two I think so so I think that's uh that's what I'm looking for now there are a couple of new pieces which I'm finding very interesting but they need work so whether we can get to work done in time or not well the right stuff will come along it always does yes it does yeah sometimes you have to wait a little bit but 30 years you get [Laughter] it thank you hey thanks you honey in rural areas all over the United States states there are campgrounds specifically for gay men and lesbians it's a trend that's blossomed over the past few years with nearly 100 camps around the country this next story looks at the tight-knit community that is formed at one camp in [Music] Pennsylvania I made the mistake of saying I was going camping every week and Anthony remind me this is not camping this is Camp you got a saw saw or something like that okay honey just because it's a gay campground doesn't we don't have tools well I know baby oh we're here really nice this Campground is my family my community the people who care for you are here I tell people I'm going over to Rainbow it's not a Bears camp it's not a leather Camp it's not a drag camp but it's got all those communities in it I think our youngest seasonal is about 25 26 and our oldest seasonal is in the 70s we have people come to Onida from everywhere from Washington DC from Rochester from Syracuse Philadelphia New York and then all the little small towns in between I mean there are people here who don't know you're from Adam and they're will can we give you a hand do you need anything I look forward to it every weekend okay it's Wednesday I only have two more days and a lot of the lesbians don't have quote unquote a lesbian campground to go to whereas a night of welcomes we're all a family and that's what our family values are we all watch out for one another up here9 [Music] loose juy Lucy David yours is up next put yourne in I'll give you something to whine about I think what most people are looking for is the basic need of acceptance basic acceptance for who they are what they do how they live their life I was 19 when I came out I got caught up in the whole bar scene in the whole bar life you know everything was a party no responsibility where is it right there that's the order it's it so it's after I met Thomas in 1993 and we're still together 14 years later he gave me the little boot in the butt that I needed to put me back on the right path it's going to be a little bit just everybody came at once so we're cooking as fast as we can cook I started working here in 2000 I actually took a very very huge salary cut because I wanted to make sure this place was always here because this was our home thank you I think both of us in a sense found that little Missing Link you know that little piece to make us complete and it was [Music] family grab the plates from table for got or Chris go to [Music] [Applause] four how would you like to do me a little favor how would you like to lay a few people [Applause] [Music] girls are real girls [Applause] [Music] H I haven't seen any of the campground this weekend yet we probably have about 15 golf carts on the campground right now and we got areas now we're just strictly golf cart parking and here's our Flamingo site Stevie [Music] G's there's our psychedelic site it's glow inth dark paint so at night it does glow when they put the black lights on this is Anthony here Anthony and Kevin how's the deck going hey guys this is the Builder weekend huh I have to move the whole deck out away from the trailer so I can put the supports up to put a roof over it yeah and of course we had to go to our far favorite toy store Home Depot uh the other day cuz I said to him you need a tool I'm sure you need a power tool cuz he uses the power tools but I like buying power tools oh I like to shop I I so it's all right if there was a stereotype about gay people like that I do like the shop I pick it up and I was like okay what's the difference between this one versus the other one the other one was for lack of a better I thought it looked nicer I was going to say pretty so I guess the trick is we have to move this out a bit huh well pulling it Forward means taking all the supports and everything else out and but it's nice cuz when it comes time to do the roof I I there's a bunch of people I'm going to have a a roof raising party it's nice to have that sense people at Camp I go down and help other people that need help many hands make light work and these people are that's what I love about this they will be here and a heartbeat when I say it's time well I mean it might not hurt that I have food and and and some cocktails mixed up but they'll be here like I always say you take a gay man into the woods he redecorates and we redecorate here we have a lot of fun here the style of decorating is very varied I miss that jeene I don't decorate you can just let it all go as gay as you want be as silly as you want it's almost a necessity to flare it up and kind of be able to express yourself that little bit more that you can't get away in your own home Community you can see what the person is going to be like just from looking at their site this was one of his pride and joy he's put a lot of time and effort into uh just making this a little garden it's made up of things that we've collected over time but it also reflects a lot of what's been going on at camp because like like this the the Hat with the glasses in the skull we had a cocktail party where it was a Blue's brother's cocktail party so the hat and the glasses wound up there like last weekend it was pouring down rain so I couldn't do anything outside so I wound up underneath the deck and I had chiseled our name in The Plaque that's in the middle there I'm out there tapping away he says what are you doing I said well come and look and I don't want to sound all too mushy but I'm going to I met I met this man fell in love with him 9 years ago I just never knew what supposed to be this good New Jersey started the domestic partner we were the ninth couple in Asbury Park went down as Park that day a little went to effect on a Saturday he's like well don't we wait and we'll do it on our anniversary he didn't want to remember one other dat really what it was and it's no longer groom and bride it's now partner a and partner B so occasionally we refer to each other affectionately as partner a and partner B we did it right in our living room that night our biggest celebration is the day we met that's right this is a picture of my partner and I cutting down trees acting like real um Lumberjacks yeah Lumberjacks I met him when I was 20 years old I looked at him from the moment I saw him and I said he's the one I didn't have a doubt in my mind when we got together we both love camping and we were actually kind of tired of the straight campgrounds where you could just sit there and pretend your brothers or friends or you know going there fishing or whatever so we pull in through the gate and every single campsite that we drove by waving hi how you doing you know welcome to a night of this side and the other and just we didn't want the weekend to end take my he was losing weight feeling awful he went from being the most healthy strong guy to a man who was in so much pain he was in the fetal position crying on the floor no warning no nothing he was diagnosed with cancer I came up here there were people bringing up recliners for for my partner to just sit in and be comfortable instead of being so skinny sitting in these plastic chairs you know trying to have any cushion people bring brownies or cakes or food or the outpouring of love and the feeling like I wasn't doing this alone that's what this Campground is I mean that's the reason why I'm here uh he died of non hodkin lymphoma he was a wonderful man greatly missed by a lot of people here especially me [Music] obviously this is good this is good I'll take that one um what do you got to do no just walk under are we okay here yeah while you figure in stilettos wig are going to hit right about here yeah you're going to them right there well some of us aren't garden gnomes some of us are tall this weekend would be masquerade weekend this is really the last big hurrah for the season you know what's going to drive you crazy this thing right here that metal box that's going to drive you nuts and every picture all I saw was that goddamn plug box later on I'll be draw up I do Alexis theone I was a uh miss campona the previous year and what the funniest thing about that is I work here as a guy that's what people can't get over I you know lift 120 lb logs and I'm walking around in 6in stiletto [Applause] shoes I've won five titles and this was by far the best one I've ever won [Music] before I came here I was always really really nervous as far as performing up here they gave me the self-confidence to do what I want to [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] do w [Applause] [Music] [Applause] I'll take you anytime [Music] [Applause] [Music] hell hello hello hello you guys hungry let's do some construction for us away there they're like aren't you supposed to PE for on that roof cuz Anthony was just doing a layout I said no I have dishes to do next spring it'll come off this way over the deck I'll put posts out here come out this way and enclose the deck Li the last weekend here for the season where the batteries there should be another one right over on the and then it's out of here tomorrow 6 o'clock tomorrow they wipe the codes lock down the gate and Camp was closed till April officially closed makes it a hard weekend it's hard to believe it 6 months has already [Music] passed it's going to be tough not like waking up Thursday saying what do I have to put in the car for Friday cuz we're going to [Music] Camp so um I guess everything in balance and it's it's winter time it's time to hibernate and get the stuff done at home we're all friends what's the shap lovers come and go but friends are forever and these people up here are [Music] forever cuz that's the sad part is you don't know from season to season God forbid somebody doesn't come back so that's why we all try to stay close me it's dark I cannot see why does this rain pour down I'm going to drown in a sea in the beginning you look and say oh it's 6 months and the next thing you know that 6 months is gone and then of course it starts and then you blink and it's done and 6 months have gone by and those 6 months in the winter seem to just go forever you f you got to hold on hold on through the night even though I do like projects going and everything else this has been a lot of work this year and I foresee next year being a lot of work too before I can finally get down to the little things that I want to do you know the little projects and just relaxing the little decorative stuff the gardening and what have you the things that make it beautiful soon you'll beine you cry look up to [Music] thear thank you for watching in the life to sign up for monthly air dat alerts or to download past episodes 24/7 please go to our website at inthe tv.org or call 1800 627 onv we'd love to hear from you I'm Michael Billy thanks for tuning in and please join us next month when do you think the last time we saw each other was I don't know I remember I the only thing I remember about us is I remember the first time we had dinner together at lunch actually no it was a dinner and it was in uh Miami Florida oh gosh you're right yeah oh but that's when I was doing Tula down in Palm Beach or something mhm oh yeah I remember that I was thinking of the lunch at oros with Liz mccan when we first talked about Virginia wolf yeah but that was well we didn't talk about Virginia WF we talked about politics that's right when we're going down West Street South just south of Canal Street there's a building that's all boarded up and and there's a big lot of okay whole line of cardboard there and somebody has printed on that you got to have a swine to show you where the truffles are Edward Al isn't that that quote from Virginia wolf isn't nice well it takes a swine to find it yes well that that's another theine the line is you got to have a swine to show you where the truffles are all right well I'm sure you're right in the life is funded in part by the H vanan amaran foundation and by Arcus foundation and by Collingwood foundation and these funders and by the annual support of in the Life members like you [Music]