In the Best Interests of the Children (1977) | filmmakers Q&A

Good evening. Um, it's so lovely to see you all here. Uh, my name is Beandrea. I'm a film programmer here at the UCLA Film and Television Archive. Welcome to the Billy Wilder, which is the home of all of our programs. Um, curious, how many of you is this your first time here at an archive event? Oh my gosh, almost everybody. Wonderful. Well, welcome, welcome, welcome. We're so glad you're here. And welcome back to those who've been here before. Um, if you've been here before, you know I have to do my announcements at the beginning. Um, but first, I do want to just welcome you to this wonderful theater, uh, this wonderful screening of Lesbian Custody, uh, followed by In the Best Interest of Ch the Children. Um, this free screening along with all of our year-round public programming is made possible by the generosity of an anonymous donor and our partners here at the Hammer Museum. I want to give thanks to the Cone Foundation for supporting the Legacy Project screening series, as well as our community partner, Queer Film Los Angeles, for their continued support. Want to thank the wonderful archive staff without whom truly none of this would happen. Um, and also our theater staff, our student theater staff. Let's give them a hand. And you are welcome to take photos or video before or after the screening. Um, but we ask you to refrain from doing so during the films. And uh, please, please, please silence and put away your devices um, so that we can all enjoy the experience um, with minimal distractions. And if you are up for sharing about your experience tonight, you can tag us uh at UCLA FTV archive. That's UCLA FTV archive on social media as well as on letter box. You're welcome to leave a review and say that you saw the films here. Um and if you'd like to learn more about our programs, um you can go to cinema.ucla.edu to sign up for our newsletter. And of course you can follow us on social. And I'll just say that tomorrow night we're doing a 30th anniversary screening of The Incredibly True Adventures of Two Girls in Love, Maria Magenti's classic. Um, and then on Sunday, we are for our Beyond Barbie series, uh, we're having, uh, the filmmakers of We Are the Radical Monarchs, which is actually another Bay Area theme, um, like tonight, uh, which is about this amazing group of, uh, Girl Scouts um, in Oakland. So come back for that as well. Okay. So I want to tell you a little bit about these amazing films we're about to watch tonight. This is going to be like a really special experience. So you all are very you're in the right place tonight. Um so um in the best interest of the children in 2021 UCLA film and television archive digitally restored this film from the 16 millimeter um from the original AB reversals and the 16 mm magnetic track. The laboratory services were by color lab audio mechanics and the funding came from national film preservation foundation, women's film preservation fund of New York women in film and television and the Leon Levy Foundation. Um, and so we want to thank them and also women make movies. So, just to give you some context on the films tonight, between 1967 and 1985, lesbian mothers across the US routinely lost custody of their children. Family courts widely viewed same-sex coupling as incompatible with parenthood. Judges use the vague legal standard, quote, "the best interests of the child," end quote, as a smokeokc screen for moral condemnation, citing fears that children of lesbians would be stigmatized, emotionally harmed, or quote turned gay. Courts regularly prohibited these mothers from living with their partners, engaging in activism, or even visibly being part of gay and lesbian communities if they wish to retain parental rights. This period also marked a time of rising LGBTQ plus visibility, which only increased the vulnerability of lesbian mothers, especially those who had left heterosexual marriages. For mothers of color, the threat of custody loss was compounded by racism and class discrimination. Many lived in fear, settling cases quietly or hiding their identities to avoid being deemed morally unfit. So it's in this climate that in the best interests of children of the children was made completed almost 50 years ago in 1977 by the trio Francis Reed who's here tonight Elizabeth Stevens and Kathy Zoitland. This groundbreaking documentary gave voice to eight families navigating the discriminatory contradictions of the family court system. With grace and compassion, the film captures a diverse set of experiences through candid interviews with mothers and most poignantly, their children. It's the interviews of the kids that just knocked me out with this film. Nearly a decade before researchers began to publish data affirming that children raised by lesbian mothers thrive, this film made that abundantly clear, delivering a powerful and tender portrait of familial love and resilience. And before we see the feature doc, we're going to watch a wonderful video essay called Lesbian Custody made by uh two filmmakers, Topiary Landberg and Molly um I have the I have the thing here, but I don't have it in front of me. Oh, yeah. Here it is. Molly Skonets Skonetsy. Molly Skonetsy. Okay. Sorry, Molly. Um um oh good. Okay, I did it right. Sorry. Um uh so yes, so Topiary and Molly made lesbian custody. This is a like brand spanking new video essay that came out this year and this um is in direct conversation within the best interest of the children. So, um, it re introduces us to now retired filmmaker Francis Reed and her stepdaughter, Julie Stevens, who's also here tonight. Um, and it explores Julie's separation from her mother, Elizabeth Stevens, after she came out as a lesbian and faced diff a difficult custody battle. And at the time, um, Elizabeth Stevens was Reed's partner and of course co-directing uh, in the best interest of the children. So, blending archival footage with the poignency of hindsight, the essay offers a layered historical perspective on queer family struggles and the hard one fight for parental rights. So, um just really enjoy enjoy the film and we will have a fabulous Q&A afterwards with Francis Topiary, Molly, and Julie. So, it's going to be a good one. Enjoy. Now retired filmmaker Francis Reed in 2000 was nominated for an Academy Award. She produced and directed Skin Deep in broad which was broadcast nationally on PBS and Straight from the Heart which earned another Academy Award nomination. Her cinematography credits include The Times of Harvey Milk and Complaints of a Beautiful Daughter. Her current project exposure a filmmaker on the edge of history is a documentarian's memoir. Welcome, Francis. Next up, we have Samuel Topiary, aka Topiary Land. Um, is a media artist, writer, film curator, and educator. Her work explores queer history, urban landscapes, environmentalism, and found footage in experimental and documentary media. She's a recipient of the McDow Fellowship and a former Sister Spit member. Her work is screened widely including the film festival's Frameline, Mixen NYC, and Image Plus Nation. She co co-hosts Animal Vegetable Mineral, a podcast about all things documentary, and recently published an article on In the Best Interest of Children and Feminist Media Histories. In the spring of 2025, she teaches at UC Santa Cruz and programs for the Mil Valley Film Festival. Welcome, Samuel Topier. And um then we have um Molly Molly Skonetsy. I'm sorry I'm saying it wrong. Sconetsy. Skoneetsy. Okay, I got it. Molly Sconetsi is a filmmaker and art director whose work explores underrepresented histories and communities. She co-founded Tulsen's photo and video department, which she has directed for over 15 years, seamlessly bridging independent and commercial media projects. Her practice includes directing, editing, and producing short documentaries, multimedia campaigns, and art installations. Based in Oakland and Brooklyn, she holds a BFA in graphic design from California College of the Arts. Welcome, Molly. And then we have Julie. Um, Julie Stevens grew up in Southern California and moved to the San Francisco Bay area in the late 1970s at the age of 13 to live with her two moms. She is the founder of the Urban Retreat Center in Oakland. And that's what I have for Julie right now cuz I didn't know Julie was going to be here tonight until like an hour ago. So, I'm so excited that she has made it. So, come join us. All right. Wow. Well, um I don't think I had seen the films in such close succession before tonight. I saw them at separate times. Um and it was really powerful seeing them together, right? Do you feel that? Um just even the sort of like the callbacks, right, of what was um excerted in the short and then what was you know the original source material. So I wonder if you could say starting with Francis like when was the last time you saw your film and what is it like seeing it now? >> Um is it Yeah, this is on right you can hear me. Um first before I answer that question I just want to start by well I will say something about seeing this tonight which is this is the first time I've seen the restoration on a big screen. I've seen it on my computer screen until now. And uh thank you UCLA for doing it. I think it just looks so gorgeous. And also I really want to thank so much both Julie and Topiary. I mean I I wouldn't be here right now on this stage. This film wouldn't be up here on the screen like this if it were not for Julie's vision to to want to preserve her mother's memory and topiary taking that and really running with it. >> So, so thank you both so much for that. I love you both. You know that. Um, so that partially answers your question in terms of uh but but I I you know I mean I've seen various iterations of are am I calling you Samuel or topiary tonight? >> You call me Topiary. >> Good queer. Many names. >> Yeah. Um I hadn't seen them together like this and I hadn't even seen the absolutely final version of Topiary's film until tonight. And I I love how they play together. I mean, I I mean, Topiary knows as we talked about it over the time that sometimes I was a little bit nervous about her using a lot of the footage from Best Interests in the film, like, oh, is that going to work? You know, I mean, but I think it works beautifully. So, um, thank you, Tobierry, for and and for for honoring, um, Julie's and my relationship and honoring the relationship to the film. It it really means a lot to me. >> That's right. >> Wonderful. Yeah. Um, did you want to say anything, Julie, about seeing it now? Either and both. >> Yeah. >> All of what you said, ditto. Um, and seeing them together was Yeah. I wasn't sure how that was going to go. And it's it was made to be like that. just like every moment, right? Um the restoration is beautiful. I mean, that's a lot of my childhood up there, so I, you know, I remember it kind of scratchy and this and that, but that was really beautiful. So yeah, I want to say thank you Topi and Molly and Fran and Francis. Francis, do not call her Fran. Okay. Um, this is this is the army of lovers up here. Um, what's the second part of that phrase? I already forgot. The army of livers is cannot be cannot be defeated. Absolutely cannot fail. Okay. Um >> yeah, that was a really nice tag of seeing um the mother who was talking about being a respectful parent wearing the t-shirt also. It's like really great. Well, Francis, you already kind of got us started with um you know, talking a little bit about how you got involved in the video essay. So, um just give us a little bit of a background in how um you and Topiary first first connected. >> Um we first connected because uh Topiary reached out to me when she was curating this show at the uh Oakland Museum. >> I was not the curator. >> Well, no. Okay. You were not the c you but Well, all right. Uh >> I was I was just a worker. >> Okay. >> A worker. Th this this wonderful worker reached out to me and and you know said that they wanted to show uh in the best interest of the children and they did and it was a really crappy looking version because it had been taken from the 16 millimeter and and in some really cheapo way had been digitized and so forth. And so that I think that was part you know you gave me a copy of of what you had >> from that point and I just thought this this film can't really see the light of day like this so much but that was how Topiary and I first met and then independently from that she and Julie met >> and um and then Julie put Topiary and I together again after after that and then we just started talking about how you started really saying something has to happen with your film. So, uh, and that was probably about four years ago or something when we first >> I think it was 2023. >> Okay. 23 documentary years. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. And and Topiary, why don't you tell us your inspiration um in terms of I understand that you originally wanted to make a feature and then kind of pivoted to making a short. Tell us about that. Well, Molly and I started talking about this amazing story, which was getting to know Julie and realizing that Julie was the daughter of the filmmakers of this film that I had helped to procure for the Oakland Museum show. And I I had remembered that um Francis was disappointed to learn that the film wasn't going to screen in a theater. it was like on a loop and it wasn't clearly marked when it was being shown and I felt disappointed because I worked really hard to try to procure the film. It was actually kind of hard to get and um and so it was kind of in the back of my mind that it was a film that didn't really get its due. even though it was I I think the Queer California show was an amazing show and I would never have known about the film had I not been working on that show. So when I met Julie and and she started asking me about could I help get a screening of the film knowing that I did some programming and um and and that I knew about the film. I thought you know I can do one better than that. I can write an article about it and get it published in an academic journal because that's one of the things I do. And then I thought actually that film should be restored. And I knew that um Outfest and the Legacy Project in UCLA was doing restorations of older queer films. And I thought, you know, this is a great film to advocate for. And so I worked some of my connections and found out who was the right person to talk to. And it was actually not hard. They were like, "Oh, yeah. It should be we definitely let's make it happen." And then um the team at UCLA that I was working with, Todd Winer and um Todd's great Jillian Borders um they said, "Let's apply for a National Film Preservation Fund grant." So I helped with that and then >> we got that. And then Women Make Movies said, "Let's apply for um women's film preservation fund." So we applied and got that. It I mean it was actually not hard. Um at least not on my part. And um and then it was it kind of flowed from there. But like in terms of Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You add >> Yeah. >> I was just gonna add to that when Toier and I got together, she was telling me about um how she had been working on restoring this film at UCLA and about Queer California um show and the article. And so she's like, "You should see this film. It's amazing. It's amazing. I've been watching." So I went over to your house and we're watching the film. And as you you know you kind of dropped into this time capsule and being Gen X for me you know seeing the 70s it was kind of like there's all that and then it was this moment of first of all for myself feeling like how do I not know this history it's not like this was 200 years ago even 50 years ago these are contemporaries >> but then we were talking afterwards and I was I had asked topiary how did you get this connection and she was telling me about you know Francis the restoration but then says oh yeah I was also by the way I was also at a party in Oakland and it was like sort of a healing circle and I met some I met someone there and we were talking about you know things and she was talking about her moms who were you know filmmakers and and it's turned out it was Julie the daughter from the inspiration from the film and then in that moment I was like this is more than an article we of course I'm like an eternal optimist but I was like this is a feature because it just was so that the combination of that history that was underrepresented getting in touch with having the the participant Francis your legacy in the Bay Area the whole thing was just um sort of came together and so that was sort of the impetus for us taking off on that project. >> Oh my gosh I'm just sitting here trying to track all the different layers of overlap and it's >> well you're trying to track it. It was actually really hard to write the narration to make it parse. That was like a big challenge was like how much information, how little information like there were many versions of like the narration to try to make it make sense because it is kind of multi-layered. >> Right. Right. Yeah. Um I just want to start with some basics. Um well not start but continue with some basics of when the film was completed um where did you screen it and what was kind of the impact that it had Francis? Well, you know, when we first conceived of the film, it was it was it really was when so many lesbians were um having these battles and we we probably naively thought, let's make a film that judges are going to look at and they're going to see that it isn't the homes where the you know the felony is sodomy is committed twice a week or whatever >> at least. >> At least Thank you. Thank you. Yes, let's hope at least, right? Um, and you know, so that so we thought, well, this film could be, you know, used by lawyers who were in these cases and and submitted as evidence and then judges would then have to see it. that maybe actually did happen in a couple of cases, but when we were done with the film, we realized really what it was was an organizing film and a film for the lesbian community that needed it. So, um, Liz and I got in our Volkswagen van in the fall of 1977 and we literally drove around the country. The van, I think, blew up twice. We had to replace the engine twice on that trip. Um, you know, but we went from city to city, all the cities that had lesbian communities around the country and we showed the film. We showed it in church basement. We showed it in, you know, gymnasiums. We showed it, you know, all the places that lesbians gathered. We showed the film. And so it that really at that point became the primary audience for the film. And it had some it had some theatrical screenings as well in places and it went to festivals both um in this country and in Europe. I mean it it was really interesting how much the Europeans were very interested in this subject. So we were you know in the year after the film was done it was probably at um you know three four three or four um European festivals and you know won some awards and things like that. So it was it was seen more in that way than it was necessarily seen by judges. Although I do think some judges probably did see it. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. And the other thing I want to say is that this film came out in 1977 and that was the same year that Harvey Mil became the first gay elected official in the United States. And it was just this this moment this cusp. I mean, you addressed that a little bit in your introduction where suddenly there was much more gay visibility than there had ever been and there was also all of the backlash to that at the same time. So having films um you know like like word is out and like in the best interest of the children were were such important films at that time to um to to make that visibility and useful useful as an organizing tool and I just think that this is a perfect moment in time that this film has gotten this restoration because here we are again folks. So, you know, and it it takes different forms, but it's, you know, it's the same thing again, that level of >> repression, oppression. >> Yeah. So, you you and um Liz Stevens were going through these custody issues as you were shooting the film. >> Um yeah, I it wasn't a custody battle per se. It was really what get what gets said in Tobiary's film, >> Topiary Molly's film, sorry. Um, uh, that, you know, there was not an active custody battle going on, but but Julie really wanted to be living with us and you know, the compromise we made with Julie's dad was that she could come spend every weekend with us and so she did. You know, we would pick her up on Saturday morning after the required uh therapist you had to see. >> Right. Um >> to shrink my head. >> Yeah. Exactly. And we would pick her up and we would bring her back as late as we possibly could on Sunday night and literally crying all the way. And so it was that it was more that than it was like a an actual custody battle. Although we did start talking with that lawyer who's in the film about what we could do to gain custody. Well, Julie solved the problem for us. Actually, she just made her father's life hell. >> I just acted like a crazed maniacal 13-year-old. And I think he got scared of me, right? >> He was like, "Oh take her." >> Yeah. He said, "You can have her." >> I was robbing houses. I was doing all kinds of stuff. So, he was like, "Uh-uh. This is not going to work in suburban >> in Kenoga Park." >> Kenoga Park. Yeah. I mean, I think that um there's a quote, I think I heard it in um Better Things where it's like all mothers are single mothers. Um >> and I one of the subjects in your documentary basically said that um and I was just thinking about um how ahead of the time your film was in pointing out these issues, right? not just for lesbians, but for women, right? You know, like for for quote unquote mothers, you know, it's just like you're unearthing all of these taboos um and having these conver the film was such an important I can imagine. I'm just trying to imagine those conversations in those church basement, you know, it must have been like almost like those consciousness raising groups of the early feminist movement. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. And what do you remember about Were you involved in the making of the film on the weekend? >> I was kind of behind the scenes. >> There were some pictures of you. >> I was carrying with like a headset and hanging out. And my father >> to that point, my father part of the custody battle was like, "Oh, hell no. You're not going to be in the film. you're not gonna you're not going to have anything on the screen about him or me or custody or any of that. So, my memory was like I was just friends with all of these kids and we would, you know, as kids do, we would get together and wrestle and do all kinds of kid fun things and but no, I wasn't in the film. >> Okay. So, you weren't like there on the side when the kid interviews were happening. I I was at many of them but not all of them. >> Okay. >> Because I wasn't with my mom and Francis full-time. >> Right. Okay. So, yeah. So, you were there. You were an associate producer. >> I was an associate producer. >> Maybe the youngest one ever. >> Yeah. Um Yeah. I mean, and this is for anyone on the panel, maybe starting with Molly and Topiary of just what's your reaction to the interviews with the children? Like, do you remember when you first saw that? like what did you tell us about your initial reactions to that? Yeah. >> I mean, I think that was one of the parts of the film, I mean, besides the whole thing where it really hits where you we get this feeling that it's so obvious. It's like the kids doesn't matter all from the youngest one all the way just the way they express the feelings of what it means, fairness, you know, the that their rights, all of it. It's just and then you you sort of think about the layers of the court system and the the battles and the sort of going back and forth between the parents and it's just that idea in the end I love that Francis how you guys had like thank you to the children for your wisdom and for a while top and I had even thought about titling the film the wisdom of the children because >> it just pierces right through and I think especially then when we started talking about how to you know of course tying it to everything that's happening now and we were working on it in 2023. And so, of course, it only even amplified. We finished it this year. But just how simple that idea and just their their poignency and their ability to communicate, but then with such heartfelt feeling, it just to us that was such a important piece. >> Yeah. I mean, I think um we we had al an earlier idea that we had was to find a lot of the kids as who are adults now and um kind of have a then and now relationship and um and we we did track down a few of them and >> the the truth that became was one thing that was complicated was like Francis describes the film as a kind of um propag propaganda film and the truth that we were hearing from a few of the kids we found was a way more complicated story and we felt after we talked to um two of the Norman kids we felt like that's maybe not the story we want to tell for this. So that was one interesting kind of experience. Um, you know, the other thing that I mean I to me the I think I say it in the narration like the the kids being given a platform in the film is to me one of the most remarkable things about it and one of the most striking things and I just I love the way in which the film is modeling a type of parenting that is about respect. I mean the uh a couple of the mothers say that and Norman uh Norman Jean says that but um but you feel it in the kids the kids are being given a voice. >> Yeah. >> And um there was one question though that your mom asks about the sexuality. I was like it's so 70s and also it's a little bit um you know there's a there's a people would not ask that to kids these days I don't think. And um so that also >> it was radical to >> it was radical and it was interesting and I was almost checking my own purant reaction to that. But um you know it was also like a different time >> in all those ways. And so I I also find that to be a really interesting aspect of the film. >> Yeah. And it was the older kids who responded, right? Because you know in some ways like the younger kids they may not even really have understood. >> Yeah. see Jimmy going like, I don't >> that's not my life yet, you know? I don't know about that. Um, >> we we did decide that that was an important question to ask though because that was so much of what the courts were using against lesbians, which is you're going to turn your kids gay >> and look what happened. >> Look what happened. >> Case in point. Uh, but but but that so that was actually what was the impetus behind that question. Yeah. Yeah. Um I just couldn't believe I mean I can believe it but the parent the fathers like it was about them just winning but they didn't really want to do the work of raising children and just you know the idea of just like depositing your children >> somewhere like they're you know >> just objects to be moved around. Yeah. Is quite shocking. Um, yeah, I think I'm going to open it up for questions. Um, so start thinking about uh your questions. Um, I'm trying to formulate a question about these layers and it has something to do with there's just something really beautiful about like even the title lesbian custody is, you know, a double meaning, right? Like it has this archival. It's like you're doing this deep archival queer um kind of project, right? That's like preserving this groundbreaking documentary that was um you know, not mainstream or not as widely seen as maybe it ought to have been. Um and at the same time, it's like deeply in the present, but it's also like obviously linked to the past. And I guess the question is something about like the queer archive. Um like what are your dreams for because I know you were helping Francis get her archive together in an organized fashion to be able to share with others. What do you think is the power of specifically like documenting these the queer archive and and and building that out? I again given the time that we are in right now I can't think of a more important thing to do. They are trying their damnedest to erase us whether it's taking Harvey Milk's name off of a ship or whatever it is. So there's never been a more important time to be >> preserving our history and and amplifying our history. And we will win that one. I don't have any doubt that we will win that one. Um >> that's right >> because we are mighty an army of lovers. >> Um but but it has to be actively happening on on all fronts all the time. >> It does. I mean, I think that your question, the how you started your question is also about the naming the film Lesbian Custody and I um yeah, that was very honest for me and it's something that Molly and I talked a lot about which was I genuinely really have never identified as a lesbian even though I am one but uh my generation my Gen X9s generation was very all about queer. I mean, I identified as a dyke, but and and I and I think that this project and really like deep diving into this archive honestly really did make me want to think and question my own um maybe reflexive allergy to the word and what is behind that, which I think is internalized misogyny or internalized lesbia or whatever. And um you know and also I think that we are in a time of um I think that lesbian history has been always kind of erased in the larger queer um spectrum. And um so it's like also I I want to participate in giving our four mothers their due. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> And I just think as a parent, it's like a parenting video. Like I feel like new parents should watch this, you know, >> um it would save them a lot of time and you know just and even how the particularly the two scenes well Miss Boogie Woogie in the fabulous jumpsuit. I mean it just they almost didn't even need to say anything, right? like you get their connection and and the closeness there and and how Kathy and Margaret Sloan are playing cards as they share this like heartbreaking story. It's like just these simple um day-to-day, you know, togetherness that's that really demonstrates like the power of what you're trying to say. Um does anyone have a question? And we'll have a student uh theater worker bring you a mic. Please wait for the mic because we do record these for posterity. Hi. Um, I was really impressed by the range in the subjects and their identities, especially thinking about like their class brackets too. What was the process of finding the subjects and also establishing this rapport of trust um for filming their scenes? I was afraid somebody was going to ask that question. I mean, the film was made almost 50 years ago. So exactly what the process was for finding the mothers. I can tell you the first mother I found was Nancy Jean, the woman with the three kids. And and she was such and she actually had a partner who did not want to participate in the film, but but she was such a kind of wholesome person and wholesome mother. It's funny because >> she was the one wearing the army of lovers shirt. >> Yes. Exactly. And I just thought, you know, she's a great poster child for for lesbian motherhood. And we we had already been talking about wanting to make that film. And so I went and talked to her and she said, "Sure, why not?" And and and then, you know, we knew we wanted to we filmed both here in Los Angeles. There there are uh two two families in Los Angeles. one kind of in the middle of the state and then the rest were in in Northern California. But a lot of it was kind of the word of mouth thing. I mean I you know I knew Margaret Sloan and and so you know >> you knew Ivonne too, right? >> I I didn't know Ivonne. I met Ivonne through somebody. I can't I mean that's the thing. I can't I can't tell you the exact connections that I made but we we just knew that we wanted to have you know a diversity as much as we possibly could have. And you know the lesbian community both down here and um in the Bay Area was pretty tight. So people you know you you just start saying I'm going to do this film and somebody says to you oh well you should talk to so and so you know and Pat Norman was you know very much a public figure at at that point and became even more of one. Um, so, so some people were >> to say Pat Norman also like one of the things that was interesting to me about learning about the film from the archives is to learn that Pat Norman had worked with Dell Martin on creating the lesbian mother's union which was an organization where you see like in one part the mimograph newsletter but she was an important figure in the organization of lesbian mothers fight you know >> she was the one talking about her husband had a Navy uniform in case she didn't know >> anything. Yeah. And and actually it's probably from Phyllis and Dell from Dell that I I got Pat, you know, I I they put me in touch with Pat Norman at that point probably because Phyllis and Dell were like two of the first people I reached out to about making this film. >> And that's Phyllis Lion and Dell Martin. >> Right. >> Great. Thank you. Any other questions? There's one way over there. They're gonna get your steps in tonight. >> Um, hi. My question is in regards to the the comment about the film being like a work of propaganda. And I just wanted to ask like as uh filmmakers who seek to make um non-sexist, non-classist um you know, non-homophobic films, like do you not consider all of your works works of propaganda? Um or like do you consider yourself propagandists at all or like why or why not? Well, that's real. That's a really great question. Um, yes, of course, on some level I consider all of my work to be propaganda. I mean, let's say this, all of my work has a point of view. You know, it's like nothing's neutral. Um, because I don't think there is such a thing. And, you know, um, I was just talking about this the other last night. you know, it it's it it's an expensive medium and you don't kind of want to waste it on just I don't know, uh naval gazing, I guess. So, so yes, it's it's always going to be trying to convince somebody of something or make them think a little bit more deeply or or move them a little bit politically in the direction that you would like them to move in. So in that sense, yes. I just think that this film and and and actually another film I made with um a filmmaker named D. Mosspacker, which which also got an Academy Award nomination. It's called Straight from the Heart. That film was specifically made as a piece of propaganda in response to a film that was being circulated by the Christian right in the in the early 1990s called The Gay Agenda. and it was about how the gay people are coming for you um and they're coming for your kids and they're going to convert you to queerom. Um so so we made a film where we went out and we found the most conservative parents of queer people that we could find. Most of them were Republicans. One was like a you know a Mormon couple in Utah. And we interview, you know, they were but they were all these really salt. One of them was the police chief of Portland, Oregon. the a and that film was intentionally a propagandistic film in direct a direct answer to this gay agenda film. So some of are more propagandistic than others and others you know you try to like maybe have more subtlety or nuance or something. So, so for me in terms of the films that I have made over a 40-year career, it they've they've kind of run the gamut of that, but they all are intended to be persuasive. >> Yeah. I think it was web deo who said all art is propaganda, >> right? >> Fact check me on that. >> Yeah. >> And probably the better the art, the better the propaganda. Yeah. >> There's a question in the right in the middle here. That was so beautifully done. Thank you so much. I don't know who said this. I don't know if it was someone in the audience or one of you that said and it was even the one of the the actors or the not even an actor right the people in the film. Um, she said, you know, if my child's if my child if my child's nose bleeds, it doesn't matter >> right >> what my sexual orientation is as to how I'm going to feel about my child's nose bleeding. And what was so powerful >> about this film was how >> incredibly >> like progressively forward thinking these all of these moms are. that really could be a lesson for all moms all the time, which is just really honoring who who their children are. >> So, it's interesting that you're saying that about, you know, it's propaganda. Like, to me, it it's I don't know. It's like obvious, you know, how do you So, it's not even about lesbian mothering. It's about just mothering that is so powerful and beautiful the way that this movie was done. And I just want to say thank you. So, it's less of a question even than a comment. And how can that be brought into the mainstream of this is what mothering should look like. >> Yeah. >> Thank you for that. >> Thanks, Milani. >> Um, oh, do I thought you were going to ask answer how do you bring this into the mainstream? >> Oh, I don't know if there is an answer to that. >> No, I'd rather just really been focused on that. They're just ignoring me. >> I Yeah, if anybody out here there has the answer to that question. >> Well, I mean, I think the the research also has really caught up to what we already knew, right? Which is, you know, both a blessing and a curse, I guess. But there's all kinds of studies now that show like, you know, lesbian parenting is superior to other parenting, you know, like literally. Um, so >> I don't know how to answer that directly, but I just wanted to say that I feel like when you're living outside of the margins, you tend to well this might sound repetitive or redundant, but you tend to think of things in a different way because you have to. It's like the personal becomes political because it had to because my child was literally taken away from me or my freedom was literally taken away from me. And so like as an adult and I see this film again like as a kid it was so emotional for me, right? Because I was living it. And now more as an adult, I can see, oh wow, like more of how my mom used to say, come up here and look at something and see like, yeah, now I see why these women, some of these women like Nancy Jean and the others were so heartfelt as women and mothers and passionate and Margaret as a black lesbian woman, like triple jeopardy. like she had to rethink things and had to have bring this different sort of Avivve to her life. So that's what I wanted to say >> just to wrap things up. I wonder if you could talk about um well I always say how can people who are interested in supporting your work, your future work, your present and future work, how can they do that? and if there's work that you're working on now or future work that you wanna tell us about. >> Okay, before we wrap up, I also want to give a shout out to Sue Talbot who was out there somewhere. >> You remember when I was showing Julie the t-shirt in Doiier's film? the Sue Talbot made those t-shirts at the Apple room, silk screened them at Apple >> and and in every way and in every way during that whole period of our lives was such a friend and such a support. So I'm >> and lived right around the corner from us >> and lived right around the corner. So shout out to you, Sue. Um, and answer to that question for me, I'm not making films anymore, but I would certainly love to see have this film have a whole new life. >> Um, I think it needs it. It deserves it. And, um, you know, again, Topiary is doing her absolute best to make that happen. But, uh, you know, any of you out there that have thoughts about how and where this film can be used and seen and shown and so forth, that would be great. Um, for me personally, what I'm working on right now, as you mentioned in the introduction, is is a memoir about all of the films that I have made over 40 years. And that's my my current passion. It's much easier than hauling cameras around. Um, so, so, um, I'm looking for a publisher if anybody has ideas about that. >> All right, >> great. I want to read that. >> Cool. >> So, >> um, well, so these two films together are showing in a few venues in the Bay Area this month. So, that's really exciting. Frameline and CA Film in Marin and in Oakland. And then we are I'm hard at work contacting programmers to um try to get it shown far and wide. Um I have a I have there's a couple projects that I'm working on, but I can't talk about them. >> And uh yeah, and I just started working at Mil Valley Film Festival, so that's exciting. And yeah, >> what you got? Um I so I am working now on a a similar it's related. So I'm working on a feature documentary about the Lexington Club which is um closed 10 years ago and was a lesbian bar. It started as like a dyke bar and turned into more of a queer bar um over 20 years. Started in 97 and then in 2015 was closed. And part of what's interesting for me is I'm really interested in the the his idea of history and sort of part of it is like um being of that generation but maybe feeling like wanting to bring that history to life and and bringing that into the now and feeling how much um looking back to the different generations we can kind of tie. So in this case in in the in our film lesbian custody getting to know Francis and that generation and being like taking inspiration from that but even understanding it and I feel like in the Lexington doc it's about understanding that the f this new generation Gen Z um wasn't didn't you know their their access to physical space has been really changed a lot due to like the rise of social media of course the pandemic things like that but sort of wanting to create a tie between generations so that there can much more of this not only learning from it but active inspiration and like as Francis was saying kind of all of us on board now together and so hopefully that um that throughine for me is really important so um that should hopefully will come out next um spring >> and is that bar in New York or was it >> was in San Francisco >> San Francisco >> y San Francisco >> you can also interview me about that >> Julie was there too. Okay. >> I don't know if I remember that well though. >> Most people don't. >> I sewed I sewed some oats over there. >> Um I am working on healing what we're all doing here. So I am a coach. I'm a healer and I speak in front of groups helping them to let's see I speak in front of groups anywhere from community LGBTQ centers, film stages. Um, if you know of anyone who needs a great speaker, I'm a public speaker and I can't wait to to see this film go around the country. I remember being young and being in that van, driving with you and and my mom, Liz, and going around to hear them speak on stages. And I can't even tell you this. Well, I can tell you this is a dream come true to be here. >> It's a beautiful way to end. Thank you all so much. >> Thank you. >> And thank you all for coming out tonight. >> And thank you again to UCLA for all >> Yeah. Thank you UCLA. It's a pleasure. >> Yeah.