Get Used to It: Ep. 98, "Voices of Our Lives: Patricia Occhiuzzo Giggans"

(typewriter clacking) (typewriter clacking) (typewriter clacking) (upbeat music) - Hi, welcome to "Get Used To It". I'm Sheila Kuehl, your always host or hostess or whatever, and today we have one in an occasional series that we call "Voices of Our Lives" where we talk to a man or woman in our lesbian gay community who has distinguished herself or himself in some way, in some issue, and serves as an inspiration and an example to all of us, and now I've thoroughly embarrassed, I'm sure, my guest of the day, but today we're going to talk to Patricia Occhiuzzo Giggans, who is the executive director of the LA Commission on Assaults Against Women and a longtime activist and, I mean, inspirational leader in areas and issues against violence against women and children, so Patti, welcome. I'm going to call you Patti. I gave you your whole big name so the audience would know, 'cause, you know. - Please call me Patti. You know me as Patti. - For, like, years and years, isn't that true? So it's always interesting to me sort of people who have come to devote their lives to an issue and really impacted the issue of violence against women and children the way you have to sort of see, you know, how did you get where you are and how much does sort of personal stuff fit with professional stuff and, you know, I'm just interested in the story of your life. So, tell me sort of where'd you start out? Where were you born and grew up? - The personal is- - Political. - Political is professional. - Oh, yeah, that's true. So, where'd you grow up? - Me? In New York. - Yeah, you were born there? - I was raised in New York, born in New York, and went to school in New York, and then traveled around the world and eventually got to California. - Well, that was a long trip, though, I mean, when you think about all the places that you were, but tell me a little about your folks and your family in New York. - I grew up in a very large Italian family on Long Island, and it was interesting, because I think part of my social consciousness actually was groomed pretty young because the areas were somewhat segregated in those days. Well, as you know, it still exists today in many places. But it was like the Italians lived in one community, and right next door the Jews lived, and right next door the African Americans, and right next door it was, you know, the whites and the Protestants, and so I kind of had, you know, I'm trying to figure that out as a as a young girl, as a little girl. It fascinated me, it scared me. You know, what is this? So I think my earliest ideas came from watching the communities that I lived in. - Did you see a difference at school? Was the school mixed, all the communities together? - The schools were not very mixed in those days, as a matter of fact. In fact, my mother moved us across the railroad tracks literally because she wanted me to go to a school that was better than the one, the neighborhood school that I would have gone to, and there were a lot of Jewish people that went to the school, and her thing was education. You know, coming from immigrant background and her whole, I mean, I remember she whispered to me when I was in the crib, you're going to college. I mean, that was, and I was the first person in my family to go to college. - Huh. Now, were you the oldest? You said you came from a very large family, but siblings? - Actually, I only have one sibling. Well, now I have, actually my father has another family. So I have three siblings and myself, but my mother's family, my mother and father's family, were the smallest because there was just, everybody else had a whole bunch of kids. - And there were just the two of you, you and your brother? - Yeah, yeah. - Right. So, did you end up going to college? - I did. I went to college. - [Sheila] And where'd you go to college? - I went to the State University of New York at Buffalo, actually. - Uh-huh. - Which in those days always was kind of considered the Berkeley of the East when in went in the 60s, in the early 60s. - Berkeley because it was so radical? - Very radical. Took an early position against the war in Vietnam, and also- - Uh-huh. So what year did you start college? - In 1962, 1962. - And did you have some idea when you were starting college, I say this because I certainly didn't, what you wanted to kind of be, what you wanted to aim at? - Yes, I think, well, my idea was, I wanted to be a child psychologist, and when I got to college, it was interesting, because when I spoke to one of those college counselors, and they were helping you shape what kind of courses, she asked me why I wanted to be that way. And I said, well, I really wanted to help the kids who were having trouble and who might be screwed up in some way, or who're seen as being screwed up, but I also saw them as having something to say and being very sensitive, and I said, but at the same time, I want to get a hold of those people who are kind of complacent and think that they have it all figured out. And so this woman said to me, she said, I'm not so sure child psychology is what you want to be. She said, sounds like you want to be a revolutionary. (both laughing) - Little did she know, right? - Little did she know. Little did I know, even, at the time. - Absolutely, and because of the fact, I mean, I know you now and I know your family and I know your partner and that you're, you know. a part of our gay and lesbian community. But this was not the case when you were in college? - No, not at all. Not at all. I didn't, I had never met a lesbian when I was in college. - [Sheila] We all thought we hadn't, right? - I didn't know what that was. - Yeah. - No, and I got married, and- - You got married while you were in college? - Right at the end, just when I graduated. - [Sheila] Tell about that. - Yeah, I had gone to Europe in my junior year and kind of arranged my own version of a junior year abroad, and I met a wonderful man, and I fell in love on the ship going to Paris, and we got married a couple of years after that. - Like a movie. - And then we went on a whole adventure for many years together. - Tell me about Jim. What he was when you met him, and what his work was. - When we met in Europe, we were both students. He was in a graduate program, and I was in my, as I said, I went to the Sorbonne to learn French and French civilization, and then we kind of, I came back home and finished college and then he came home and then we got married, and this was like around 1966, 67. And he, well, you know, it's really interesting. He had a lot of, a lot of endearing qualities, and one of them for me was, we both had this idea, independently, that we wanted to have a family and that we wanted to adopt children as part of our family, whether having our own biological children or through adoption, you know, and also adoption. It was one of the things in those long talks that we had when we were first getting together that was kind of a bonding that we had, and we, you know, actually did fulfill that. We constructed our family that way. - But there was some tension about your marrying Jim with your family. - Yes, don't forget, this was 1966. - [Sheila] Mm-hm. - And in the United States, there was not a lot of intermarriage going on. - Interracial marriage. - Interracial marriage, and Jim was African American. - [Sheila] Uh-huh. - He still is, as a matter of fact. (both laughing) He still is. - Yeah, that would be the case, yeah. - And so that was just something that was pretty shocking to my family. I mean, I don't think they understood it. Very hard for them. But, you know, I was a child of my times. I mean, I was totally impacted by the civil rights movement when I was growing up. I was impacted by the discovery of what happened during World War II and the Holocaust. I remember in high school I would have books, stories about World War II and the Holocaust. I'd read those books, like the History of the Third Reich. I'd have them over my other school books in class. I was totally mesmerized, and I had to find out the answer, why something like this happened. It was like I was having a parallel life in terms of having my high school life, and then these questions were coming up for me. So I guess, you know, all of those things kind of affected me, so I had a more, either outward looking, so I was more open to things that my family were pretty closed to. - Mm-hm, so it must have been difficult. - It was difficult, it was difficult. I wasn't really a part of my family for about 20 years after that. - Hm, and I know you are now, and very close. - Yes, yes. - So, you know, it's sort of like happy ending, but still, I think a lot of us for various reasons went through, you know, difficulties with our family in terms of our values and their values sort of clashing or not being understood and having to work that out later. - Exactly, but, you know, it's so good when it does work out. I mean, you can heal the past, I believe that people can, with either mistakes or ostracism or bad things that might be said, it is possible. I've seen it happen in my own family that the, you know, it's tough, but it can happen. I wish it happened more often, actually. - Or it didn't take so much time. - [Patricia] Exactly. - You know, but things take time. So Jim, what was Jim's work? - He became a television journalist and was a foreign correspondent for several years, and that's how we actually got to Vietnam, because we spent a couple of years living in Vietnam. - So talk more about that. How did that assignment get made and what was it like being in Vietnam during the war? - Yeah, that was an amazing period, because I was very busy protesting the war in Vietnam while in our early days of our marriage in New York City in the late 60s, and then in 1970, Jim was working at ABC and he got a call saying we'd like you to go to Vietnam for six months, just for six months, we need people. And at this point, Richard Nixon was beginning to bring the troops home very slowly, but they were beginning. We were beginning to slowly unwind from there, and so I'll never forget this day. Jim called me and said, oh, I got this amazing offer to go to Vietnam. And I said, oh, how great. Then I said, but wait, wait, I'm protesting the war here! He said, well, they don't want you to go, he said to me. - [Sheila] Oh, wow. - He said, it's just, you know, they want me to go for six months. I said, you're gonna go away for six months? I said, well, that's not right. If you're gonna go to Vietnam, I'm gonna go with you. You can't go there by yourself. And so that's what happened. - Huh. - We went together. - And did you live in Saigon? - And I lived in Saigon, and at the time, they wanted the wives, you know, to live in Hong Kong or Bangkok, but I absolutely, I said no. No, living in Saigon. And then they didn't want me to leave Saigon. And of course, I left and was traveling all over on military aircraft and choosing, they gave you these credentials. - [Sheila] Uh-huh. - So I used mine. To stay in the country, you had to have all these different approvals which enabled you to fly on military aircraft and go into places. So I thought, oh, I can go places. So I did. I was pretty busy. - So you went with Jim? You went on your own? - Went with Jim, went with Jim. We lived in Saigon for 2 1/2 years, actually, and he was a war reporter for ABC News during that time. - And did you get involved in work there as well? - Lots of different things. I mean, this was, like, it was interesting, because this is also the period of a lot of feminist consciousness raising, so one of the things I wound up doing is organizing this consciousness raising group with the wives of other journalists who were there, some Vietnamese women, some stewardesses who were flying in and out, and we wound up having this feminist consciousness raising group for a while. - In Saigon in the middle of a war. - In Saigon in the middle of the war. It was very interesting. - Wow. - But the thing that I was doing, I was also doing some writing, and I started training in the martial arts, and that is something that I had always wanted to do. I had it in the back of my mind, but never quite got to do, and I did a trade with one of the Korean cameramen that I would teach him English if he would teach me Taekwondo, and I did that. A lot of days I was training in in Taekwondo, and I got my brown belt in Taekwondo then. The other thing that I was doing was helping out with some orphanages. - Of which there were quite a number in Vietnam those days. - There were quite a few, there were quite a few, and a lot of the babies that were there were mixed American Vietnamese children. - [Sheila] Right. - And Jim was doing a lot of stories about the problem with the orphans there, you know. Of course, that's what happens during a war. - [Sheila] Sure. - And so I spent a lot of time doing that. - And, indeed, adopted. - And then, exactly, we started to, began to build our family, and we adopted a little baby, Ally, who I don't even want to tell you how old she is now. (both laugh) - Well, you've already indicated the years you were at college, Patti. - I know! - So it doesn't, you know, the audience is like, I think I know! - I know, so. - So she's- - Ally's an adult. - She's grown up, yeah. - She's a grownup. She's a grown up girl. Lovely, lovely young woman. And Ally is African-American and Vietnamese, you know, and this is a child who came out of that war. - But she was just an infant when you adopted her. - [Patricia] She was an infant. - So does she remember anything about Vietnam? - You know, she doesn't remember very much, but we did go back. We went back for the 20th anniversary of the end of the war, Ally and I. - [Sheila] Wow. - And she did have a few memories, but she was, you know, 2 1/2 or so when we left, so. But it was great to go back a few years ago, and we made that trip together. - So where did you and Jim then go? Because you left Vietnam obviously, and? - And then he was assigned to Paris. - Uh-huh, still with ABC? - Still with ABC. - Uh-huh. - And we stayed there for about- - And you had studied Sorbonne, so this was fine with you. - Right, and so we got to speak more French. - Yeah. - Get better at it, and live there, and then we increased our family. We adopted a baby boy from Brazil. - And how'd you get to Brazil? - We went to visit, because my brother lives in Brazil. He's lived there for 25 years. - Uh-huh. - And we would go frequently to visit him, and so that's how we got our son. - Huh, and then did you come back to New York after? - After Paris, after about seven years in Paris, we came to California. - Seven years is a long time in Paris. Were you doing work in Paris as well? - In Paris, I was doing photography. - [Sheila] Uh-huh. - I was doing some photography, and I was obviously raising my two kids at that point, and writing, getting very involved in this feminist poetry writing workshop in Paris. It was a very revelatory time for me, (indistinct). Again, it was the 70s in Paris and feminism was, you know, spreading all over the world. - Right. - And I was training in the martial arts. - Huh, and so, but when you came back to the States, you came to California, not back to New York? - Came to Los Angeles. No, we came to Los Angeles. - What drew you to, or him, to Los Angeles? - It was like it was kind of time to think about coming home, and where would that be for us? He was from the West Coast, I'm from the East Coast, and essentially I think he got a pretty good offer with the television in Los Angeles, and we came here. - Hm, but you're not with Jim anymore. - No. - And there must have been quite a transition point in your life. Can you tell about that, as things developed? - So I guess my life started in another way. It was continuous from the path I'd been on, but I think it took a turn. When I came to Los Angeles I started a school, a karate school for women and kids. It was really one of the first in the country, because while I was in Paris, I'd gotten my black belt. I'd trained for years there. I got my black belt in karate and became a teacher there of karate. - [Sheila] Huh. - And then I had this idea, and the martial arts had such a profound effect on me. I think combining my martial arts and feminism had a big effect on me, and I said, I know I want to create a place where other women can train and can learn and have some of these experiences, transformative experiences, and they did that in LA, and LA is a great place for that. If you come to LA with an idea, you know what, I believe people really can make their ideas, if you come to LA and you're trying to find yourself, you may never find yourself, but you come with a plan and an idea, it's a place where you can create something new. - Now when you said it had quite an impact on you, what did you mean? - Well, it was more like coming into my own. You know that overused term empowerment. - In terms of the way you felt confident about, because it's more than just self defense. - Oh, yes, it's much more. It's really about how you view the world and how the world views you and how you carry yourself in the world and what you're afraid of or not, and how do you deal with that fear? So I think it emboldened me, training in the martial arts. - Well, it must have emboldened you, but I wonder, because now, of course, I know you're with your partner, Ellen Ledley, and so there must have been a transition in terms of you either having this giant realization that, oh no, I'm a lesbian, or, I mean, there are a number of women I know who were very happy in their marriages, or if not happy, very fond of their husbands, and, you know, still friends, et cetera. It's not about that so much. How did that transition occur for you? - For me, it was like maybe in terms of, it was like the coming to the end of my marriage for a lot of reasons, not necessarily only about my becoming more emboldened and becoming more aware of myself, but it was a combination of things. And then here I am, kind of discovering some new aspects of myself, and, you know, finally meeting a lesbian, even. I mean, you know, as I said, when I grew up, I didn't know. What did I know, you know? - Uh-huh. - And then, you know, I guess I just started to change, and with all my... I started to change, with all my women's empowerment, and then just looking at women in a different way, you know. - Did it feel strange, or did it feel like coming home? I mean, if this was a court, they would say, objection, leading question. - Right, leading question. - But you know, it is, we only speak from our own experience and sort of the comfort level of saying ah, you know, this feels like the real me. This feels like more of an extension of who I really am. - You know, for me, I think it was wow, what is this? And then, is this really me? - Mm-hm, mm-hm. - You know, kind of not sure, because the other me was totally really me. - [Sheila] Right, right. - And now I'm having this other me that's supposed to be me. Which one is the me? So I think they were all me. And still are. - Yeah. - And still are all me, and it's all part of me. - So when did you and Ellen get together? - And then I fell in love. - So that was a good thing. - Then I fell in love with Ellen, you know. - Now, Ellen was engaged in anti-violence work. Was she in that work before you met her, or when you met her? - When I met Ellen, she was actually doing, she had her political involvements, but she was... She was a karate woman, first of all. That's how I met her, really. But she was a building woman, so she was going down a nontraditional path also. Here I was being a karate teacher, and she was the building woman, one of the building women, you know? - That was a group, not a lot of people, of course, are familiar with this group, but a group of women who wanted to be carpenters and who were carpenters and were trained by a man when no one else would really train them. - [Patricia] Exactly. - Who still works on all of our houses, one of our good friends. So she was, as you said, taking a nontraditional path as well. - [Patricia] Yes. - And your kids were with you at this time, or with Jim? - Mm-hm. We were doing a one week, one week. We shared. - Uh-uh. - Yeah, we shared. So the kids, yeah, they were with me. Part of our lives. - So you're having a transition and so are they, huh? - They were. Yeah, it was tough. - [Sheila] Yeah? Talk about that a little bit. - There were periods that were very tough. I mean, I think divorce is just very tough on kids, and it's interesting, because you don't know how your life evolves. I was going to be a child psychologist. I didn't become that. I swore that when I got married, I would never get divorced, 'cause my parents were divorced. I wind up getting divorced. You know, these things happen. And I didn't want to get divorced originally because I didn't want my kids to go through what I went through with divorced families, but these things happen, and so I think the divorce was very, very tough, and then having somebody come into that mix who wasn't the traditional stepmother or the traditional stepfather kind of thing, so that made it hard, you know, but eventually, everybody worked through it, and my adult children adore Ellen and she adores them, and you know, we're a family. We are a family. - Right. Easy to see when you see all of you together. So how did you then, how did your work transition? I mean, I won't be, I hope, dumb enough to say, gee, how did a woman that was teaching people to hit other people get into anti-violence work? Because I know that's not what it's about, of course. But still, it's sort of an interesting transition. What drew you to anti-violence work? - Well, what I said earlier about learning about the Holocaust and being impacted by the civil rights movement and the anti-Vietnam War movement. I mean, that was my life when I look back. I was of those times, and I think it affected me very personally and deeply, and when I started to do the martial arts, I saw it as a way for women in particular to be less afraid. I saw fear in myself in those years, and what I was afraid of, to be totally myself, and I saw that with so many women, and I thought it was a way to be used, a useful tool, not just for self defense, but another form of self defense. To be able to be, you know, to break down the barriers and be totally yourself, and so I really wanted to provide an environment. That's why I started Karatewomen, for women to train from a woman teacher. I had to learn from male teachers, and some of them didn't want to teach me, and I felt like I was a subversive part of the time, that I was going sneaking in there and stealing this knowledge, you know? I did have a couple of teachers, male teachers, who were absolutely willing and wanting to teach me, and they kind of mentored me, which was fabulous. - [Sheila] Uh-huh. - And so then I started, when I started the school, I started to see my students transform. And so for me, dealing with fear is a way, it's anti-violence work. - Mm-hm. - Because often, violence comes out of, it comes out of a complexity of things, but often from a fear, a fear-based place. And while I was doing that, I was going around teaching self defense. So I had the karate school and I was teaching self defense, and then somebody from the LA Commission on Assaults Against Women recruited me to do some volunteering for LACAAW teaching self defense and then doing some training, and so I started volunteering, and then next thing, they hired me as the self defense coordinator, and so that's how I got, and then I started to learn more about violence once I got, in those early days, getting involved with LACAAW and went through the trainings focusing on the sexual assault and the domestic violence. But I think for me, my work is about violence and violence prevention. I feel that, Sheila, it's like why I'm here. You know, I think some people, I think I'm fortunate to have figured that out, why I am here in the world in this iteration, and it's to do this kind of work which touches on a lot of other social issues, of course. - Right, right. - But interpersonal violence, sexual assault, domestic violence, family violence, child abuse, how that then hooks into all the inequality and social injustice, those things, is the work I do. - Well over the course of the 70s and 80s particularly, although it's of course continued, the recognition and I guess the development of theory, of a way of thinking about violence in the family in an entirely different way. We used to think this happened because someone lost their temper, or we used to say he lost control, and that violence was just a part of life, you know, and we didn't even call it violence exactly. You had a right to, you know, so I slapped her, you know, or I just hit her, I lost my temper. And there was a lot of acceptance for it and a lot of shame for those who somehow suffered it in their family because you never heard that anybody else was suffering it. It was just, must have been me. And of course, the theories and understanding about the dynamic of interpersonal violence really started developing really about that time, and people, especially people who had come out of these relationships, talking about what it felt like and a recognition of women's own stories being true, that what they said and how they experienced it, it was true, and I think that was one of the great gifts of the women's movement or all the women's movements, because there were number going on at the same time, that it was really about storytelling, about believing, about validating, that women were telling the truth. And it seems to me, though, that the LA Commission on Assaults Against Women has always taken a somewhat expansive view. It's not just about domestic violence. It's not just about sexual assault, and as you said, the relationship to so many other issues in society that were really discriminatory issues about women. Were you, early on, though I'm not sure because I really didn't know you, were you engaged in sort of getting that story out and helping to develop that story? - Yes, and I think, you know, I like many others, just like the whole country and the whole world has to break out of this denial, denying of women's experiences, in such a way that women, you know, to find our own stories is like an anthropological search. - [Sheila] Right. - And we've been embarking on that now, you know, and communities, individuals, and not just women. I mean, you know, lesbians and gay men. I mean, that's been an archeological voyage, also, to get those stories out. But I know that I was in denial about what happened in my family, actually, and it wasn't until I was working at LACAAW, this is funny, when you talk about when things are revealed to you. - Right. - That I realized that I made the connection of working in domestic violence that there was domestic violence in my family. My stepfather had abused my mother, and I was a witness to that. - Mm-hm. - And, but I kind of have, you know, here I was going on my path, and I kind of just put that part away, you know. But what we've done is made it safe for those parts that have been put away to come forward and to come out so we can break through that denial and tell those kinds of stories among all the other stories that have to be told. - Well, denial is a very useful thing. - [Patricia] Oh, yeah. - I mean, it's kind of like, what could you do about it but put it away? - Exactly. - What could you, you knew that this had happened to your mother, and so many people have said, well, I saw it happen, but... They say, well, you know, he didn't mean it, or it was just that one time, or whatever, but what they really are saying is, I can't do anything. - [Patricia] Exactly. I think we have to respect denial. - Especially if there are kids. - We have to have, I have a healthy respect for denial. You know how some people accuse you, oh, you're in denial! Well, you know what? That's a good thing. That can be a good thing a lot of the time. Until somebody's ready to deal with all that has to be dealt with, you know, so I think, yeah, but it's good that it kind of wears down, and when people are ready to come out, in a sense. - Exactly, I was going to say, it's kind of the same thing with coming out, where you cannot get- - Exactly. - You have a friend, and you want to say, you won't believe how much better you'll feel if you come out, you know, if you're gay and you come out, because first of all, there's nothing more they can do to you. Nobody's gonna hold anything over your head, nobody's gonna scare you with, they're gonna tell your story. You already told your story. You know, I mean, I told you the story when I was running about the guy that said, it scared me to death, came barreling up to a table I was at at a restaurant and said, you know, I hate all politicians. They all lie. They dissemble. They don't tell you the truth. They're awful liars. I hate him all except for you. And I said, thank you, but why me? And he said, well, you already told us the worst thing about yourself. Why would you lie about anything else? And I thought, wow. You know, it's like you get a reputation for courageous, for being courageous and truthful all at the same time. - Right. - Just for that. - [Patricia] That's great, that's a great story. - But it is very freeing, losing denial, in a way, as useful as it is. - Right, well, the less energy that we have to put into our survival, that's freedom. You know, denial being a useful tool for survival, but boy, when we can get rid of it, absolutely, it's liberating. - Now I remember though, early in the battered women's movement, there were, at least in California, and I'm not sure, although I know of four or five other states where this was also true, because I knew some of the people. There were a large number of lesbians involved in anti-violence work, fewer than there were in sort of mainstream women's issue work, although there were a lot of us there as well. - You need more. - More in mainstream? - No, fewer. Okay. - Yeah, fewer. - Fewer in mainstream and more- - Exactly. - Exactly. - And more in these anti-violence issues. And I'm not, you know, and in a way, people were concerned about that at some time, that it was going to give the anti-violence movement a bad name, because so many lesbians were in it. And it was interesting to me, though I've seen us take leadership in a lot of social justice issues, not just about women either, and not just about children. But I'm interested if you have a thought about why so many of us were engaged in anti-violence work. What is it that drew us to it? - Well, I think it was, part of it was the brilliant time of feminism. I think it's very linked to that. I mean, what an incredible idea feminism is, for you to really be liberated, to become who you are meant to become. And so, and I think there was a lot of rigorous thought, discussion, trying to figure out stuff during that time, and people were making connections. And, you know, it's like, maybe there's a sensitivity to oppression. I mean, not maybe, of course there's a sensitivity to oppression, and I think that women are capable of being, you know, lesbians and care about what happens to women who are not lesbians. Women have that capacity, and vice versa. And I think a lot of that was going on, because, you know, lesbians aren't just living in a family only with lesbians. - [Sheila] That's right. - In our families, everybody's in our families. - [Sheila] Right. - Families are made up of straight people and gay people, when you think about it, in the wider, you know, in our larger families. But I think that there was a... And I came in a little bit later because I started with all my politics with the Vietnam War and civil right, I was heterosexual. So I came in, you know, a little bit later, was already kind of formed, some of that thought, but I was very impressed with the thinking and these new ideas that were coming out about equality. And feminists were saying, don't leave anybody out when it comes to oppression. You know, it's not just about domestic violence and sexual assault. It's about gay and lesbian rights. It's about racism and anti-racism work right next to the anti-sexism, and homophobia all together. Really, feminism was about being more inclusive about what is oppressing and holding people down than exclusive, but there was a lot of all kinds of infighting and stuff that went on back then too. I'm glad I avoided some of that. - Me too. I didn't want anything to do with that, although it was going on. - Right. - There's no question, even in the anti-violence movement. - [Patricia] Right, exactly. - Nationally, I remember, there were those changes of leadership, a new regime, et cetera, but, well, I think all groups, now that I'm in the state senate, and I think, well, here's a really empowered group. And we still have the same sorts of, you know, conflicts and upheavals, and, you know, who's in charge here and who's going to be in charge here and all of that. So it isn't just, unless we're all oppressed groups no matter how high we get. It isn't only that, but I think there is a difference, too, where we were trying out our power and we wanted to do it in a different way. But no one has given us a blueprint for how to do it in a different way. And we did, you know, mandated egalitarian sorts of things that were just as oppressive in their own way that they used to, I think I remember we referred to it as the tyranny of structurelessness where no one was in charge, and that was just as bad. - [Patricia] Exactly. - But- - Well, feminism is an evolving philosophy. - It's true, but LACAAW has been very successful. What is it sort of in the mix of LACAAW, and you've been, of course, very, more than you would take credit for, instrumental in the way LACAAW has expanded its vision, incorporated so many ideas. What would you say is the philosophy of your agency? - Well, essentially our philosophy has to do with the connectedness of the sexual and domestic violence prevention to violence prevention in a wider issue, and then I'll use the term, again, it's used too much, but about oppression and keeping people down and how we see violence as almost like an octopus with lots of tentacles, so it's not just about one thing. And I think that when I came, and I've been involved for about 20 years, but it was, a lot of that philosophy was already there. I've been, I feel, the beneficiary of that when I became the executive director. Those thoughts and philosophies and people had impressed me, and I've have had the good fortune to be able to make it grow, help it grow. But it was all there in those early days, and we haven't lost it. Our values and philosophy statement was just recently re-ratified by this iteration of the 2003 board of directors at LACAAW and it's the same as 30 years ago, essentially. And we really believe that if the lives of women and girls are improved, the lives of men and boys will be improved. That's probably it in a nutshell. And equality is an important piece of all of that. - Well, there's- - And compassion. - Right. - And compassion. So, 'cause, you know, it's not about, it can't be about, you know, we're going to liberate you even if you don't want to be kind of thing. (laughs) People have to be involved in their own liberation. - And you've done a wonderful job of involving young people, too. I mean that I know that organizations all over the country are saying, you know, we're all getting gray hair, you know, we're all old, we're getting old. Where are the young people? Why aren't they involved in this? And yet, you've really done wonderfully about issues not only involving young people, but as peers in terms of dealing with violence in their lives. - Well, that's been fantastic at the agency, and we're so committed to youth, to not only the child abuse prevention pieces of it, but we're working with, you know, any anti-gang activities, because it's all connected. You know, the family violence effects and oppression and ethnic violence, those kinds of thing really affects our young kids and our youth and they, you know, a lot of them are becoming more aware of it, and we've been helping them get the tools to be able to articulate the vocabulary and the ideas, and our in touch with teens program is just absolutely fabulous, and these kids are running it. And my staff is so great about that, you know, it's like they get the kids going and then they kind of get out of the way and make some more room for them to, you know, be empowered in this whole process. But I love kids, I mean, and I think that's probably one of the things, and I'm not afraid of them, and I'm not afraid of teenagers, either. A lot of people are. A lot of people would just like to put, you know, lock them up, lock up the teenagers, but I think that one of the things that's what I like about being at LACAAW, 'cause it's not just me, we are open to new directions and kind of embracing what needs to be embraced. - So what new directions is LACAAW taking? - Well, I mean, I think the youth, the youth thing is like, we're still pretty much, you know, immersed in that. We've gotten involved in making connections to a lot of other agencies, and also dealing with homelessness, poverty issues, where domestic violence and sexual assault affects those populations suffering from other, more obvious social ills, and I think we collaborate a lot with other agencies, and that's always an interesting mix of experiences, you know, good and bad. It's always a struggle when you collaborate with a whole bunch of other groups, but it's worth it. Coaliltion work is very important. - And very difficult, no question. - [Patricia] Very difficult. - But in terms of the issue of gangs, there have been a number of, and I'm quite really sort of removed from understanding the culture and philosophy about working with gangs, what they call a gang intervention, but it seems to me that all I've ever heard is that the young people really feel that it's a kind of family for them. Now, I don't know whether that's a romanticization. There's a word there. - Romanticizing. - Romanticizing gangs, where kids are inducted into gangs or maybe they're there because they're afraid not to be, but I've also heard from especially former gang members that there's a real positive role for them in terms of family, which must make it very difficult to do, sort of to separate from the violence. - Very, very, very, and a lot of, quote, "gang members" are not committing violence. And that, you know, that's tough. It's tough for the public, general public, to take a look at that like, well, why would you wear all the colors and kind of know some of these people and even hang out, but then you're trying to tell me that you don't participate in gang banging or drug dealing or other kinds of violence? But there are many, many youth who do not. What we work with, we don't do the gang intervention like trying to do truces between, we don't do that. That's not our area. Our area is working with the individuals and letting them, helping them explore how violence has impacted their lives. What have they witnessed in their families, in the community, and what are they going to do about it? - You know, now that we're on the brink of war, or many of us hope we're not on the brink of war and would like to at least have our voices heard, to say we should not be, it occurs to me that there's a real interesting set of nexus here for you. You spent time in Vietnam during the war, quite a bit of time, longer sometimes than some of the guys were there, if they would have a one year tour of duty. You were interested in and a teacher of self defense. You have now spent your life for 20 years doing anti-violence work. Do you feel, I don't even know whether this is the right question, but do you feel that every time we deal with an issue of violence, there's a larger issue of violence? And I don't mean just the war, but I mean kind of like the way we have in making these connections and how we impact that? Because we didn't think we would impact domestic violence when we first started, and yet we've had a profound impact on identifying violence in the family, on speaking out against it, on making the law be against it, et cetera. Do you see a connection to... How are you feeling about anti-violence work, given what's going on in the world today? - Well, I learned a lot from being kind of both sides on the Vietnam War in terms of being against it and protesting it, and then going and visiting the country of Vietnam and meeting the people there and then also meeting the GIs, who every time they saw, if they saw an American woman or American looking woman, these 19, 18 year old kids would come up to me and they would go, could I talk to you? You know, and seeing these young, young men, not really knowing what was happening to them when they were there, but doing their duty, you know, so I, for me, it's all connected. It is all connected. The global violence where countries can decide that they're going to overpower to have their own way. You know, this goes for all sides. To individuals, when we need to overpower. Having influence isn't enough. Taking the time to express yourself, trying to find ways to find other avenues, that takes a lot of time. And now we're at this place, and tension builds up. I mean, you can make the parallel to the cycle of violence. - [Sheila] Right. - The tension building phase, and how it's so, it can become so intolerable. Right now in terms of the politics where we are right now in our country on the brink of going to war with Iraq, reminds me of that tension building phase in a domestic violence relationship where sometimes even the woman who's being battered or the person who's being battered does some things to provoke that final explosion so the honeymoon can happen, that they can't stand the tension phase. Right now, we have troops everywhere in the Gulf. - It's kind of like you can't stand the tension, let's get it over with, let the explosion happen. - Exactly, and we're on this road where it's like we're gonna keep escalating and escalating because not enough people can tolerate the tension. I mean, somebody said to me yesterday, we might as well, we're there now. We might as well just go and get it over with. Why are we even waiting anymore? We should just go do it. I know this is, a lot of people are feeling this way, and my wish would be if we could just, okay, it's a lot of tension, just let's hold it. If we could embrace it and wait a bit, be vigilant, be vigilant, we know we don't want to be attacked, but neither should we want to attack. So I feel it's the same way with interpersonal relationships. Countries act like people in a way, but there's a whole bunch of them, and countries are run by people. - Right. Well, but they're also run by a particular person. Or, I mean, in the United States, of course, in a democracy, we have, theoretically, the balance of power, other people saying it. In the family, often someone may be a violent person, but there can often be sort of mitigating factors. Other men in the family will say, that's not the way to solve problems. I know it's easier to hit somebody and then they'll do what you want, but that is not the way to solve problems, and we've seen men's groups form around this, and even in other cultures, men in the family do this and say, you know, we can't have this. - [Patricia] Exactly, and I think- - But we're not seeing that here. - No we're not, but I think what's also important is, like, I believe in self defense, but I'm also nonviolent, so it seems contradictory. I hold them both. I think I'm not a pacifist. I think really there are times when you have to fight. But I think that true warriors go to war very reluctantly. - [Sheila] Mm-hm. - Faux warriors speed up the process, and I think that's true with individuals. There are individuals who can very reluctantly resort to, you know, fighting. But sometimes you have to. - Right, yeah. Well, I mean, it could be a cheap parallel, in a sense, but it always made sense to me, because as you said, countries really are like individuals. More complicated, but the decision making process in most countries is within a very, very small group of people, and then a whole country is dragged along on whatever the route is, whether it's the way France is acting now where they're saying, we're going to hold back the tide of war. Who knows if all the French say yes, this is wonderful. From everything we've heard, they appear to approve of that role. In Spain, where the prime minister has said, we're with you on the war, but the people are saying, we're not with you on that, and very much the same in England, it strikes me that the decision making group is very small and very much like people that you could characterize the way you characterize various people in your family. We're like a world family, and so and so is like this, and so and so is like that. - Right, exactly. - And we would describe this person or that person in one way or the other. - I know, wouldn't it be great if we could really make room at the table for all the members of the family? - Wouldn't be really great if we let them work it out? Just those guys among themselves, and we didn't have to send 18 year olds over? - [Patricia] Right. - I mean, I was in Vietnam I think the year before you were there. I was just there for four weeks with the USO, but I talked to 10,000 men, and according to the report, 5,000 of them never came home. And, you know, it's just a thing that weighs on you when you've seen it or been exposed to it, the same as violence in the family if you've experienced it. I notice that a lot of people in the anti-violence movement are people, not all, but many, who've come out of violent situations or they've had it in their family, and it just makes you feel like, I've got to do something about this. I've got to do something about this. But with you, it wasn't exactly that way. It sounds like you were in the work and then kind of connected it to your family. - [Patricia] Exactly, yeah, for me it was a little bit the other way around. - Yeah, well, and I also don't want the show to be over before we talk about Ruby, which may seem like a real switch, but you know, there's so much to talk about, because I know that your two kids grew up and they're adults, and Ellen, I may be characterizing this correctly or incorrectly, decided she wanted to have an experience of mothering a child. Can you tell a little about that and how you made this decision? - You told it pretty well. It was really, that's what happened. We had raised the two older kids, and Ellen was thinking that there's a part of kids growing up that she'd missed, and that she'd like to have that experience, and so we thought about it and talked about it and I said, yeah, okay, you know? We'll do it. Let's do it. And we got this absolutely fabulous little girl, Ruby. - [Sheila] From the first minute, more or less? - From the first minute. - Yeah. - Absolutely, we adopted her and she's the light of our lives and her siblings adore her, she adores them, and we're just- - How old is she now? - She's eight. She's eight. - And what's she like? - You know what? From the get go, Ruby... When I think of my maturation and growing up, coming into your own, Ruby has had her own ideas from the time she was this big, so she's very strong willed and very funny and very smart, and she can figure out what she wants pretty quickly. - Well, you said an interesting thing to me about Ruby the other day, which was, we were talking about sort of the various ways in which we are out in the world as lesbians, and it isn't like every single day I go, I'm gonna talk to you about my sexuality today! I mean, it doesn't happen, and yet there are sort of phases of being out, and you said an interesting thing about Ruby, which I wish you'd repeat, if you remember, that this is nothing that you kind of do every day, but with Ruby, it's like you're out everywhere. - Exactly. - How is that? - With Ruby, well Ruby is just so, she's so herself that she outs us everywhere we go in public. You know, I mean, maybe there's some places where a wise person might be a little cautious about... - Like, what does she do? - You know, she'll just yell, Patti mom! Where's your wife, mommy Ellen? And people are looking around. What is this kid talking about? She has her own terminology, even, about all of this, but, so Ruby totally has helped me be extremely comfortable in the world in terms of all the parts of myself, and I want that for her, I want that for her. What concerns me about the Rubies of the world is that, you know, they're growing up, where the parents who other people might not be so keen on, in the school environment and on the playground, and Ruby comes home with stories, and I'm concerned about Ruby and all the children of our gay and lesbian families who are gonna have all these different experiences. You know, of course I want to make the world better quicker and more accepting, you know. - And you know, I think these kids are a little less worried about themselves than we are about them in a way. - [Patricia] Yeah, probably. - Because I know that the groups of slightly older kids of lesbians and gays who are finding their way in the world have said, you know, we're who we are. Our parents have been loving and wonderful. We're the ones that need to say that's the case, and I don't see Ruby standing still for too much discrimination, myself. She doesn't stand still for almost anything, and she's taught us, I think, a lot about courage. - Yeah, well, she said to me the other day, she said, we've had this conversation before, it was another iteration, she said, Patti mom, how come so many people think that being gay or lesbian is not good or icky? We're driving in the car and she's in the backseat, I'm in the front seat, we have these sometimes incredible conversations in the car, and of course I stumbled through some answer about people not knowing enough, being ignorant, not knowing enough gay and lesbians, you know, and then she said something on the point of, well, I don't think so. (both laughing) And then she said, you know, sometimes I have to hide my life. And that really touched me deeply, because here you have an eight year old who sometimes herself, because of who her parents are and who her family is, who she adores, already she's seeing the world in places where she has to maneuver, so. But that, I'm hopeful like you are, I know you are. - [Sheila] Yeah. - Be ever hopeful that things will change. - Well, it's an interesting note to end the show on, because it has the same textured kind of complexity as your life and so many of our lives, that it is about, you know, we have not met with nothing but blue skies going along. I mean, there's been discrimination, there's been barriers, and yet, I mean, you have accomplished so much, and a lot of people you don't even know admire your work, admire your fierceness, admire your spirit, admire what you've accomplished, admire what you stand for, and so I think we never know. We just have to, like you said, learning kind of when you were doing Taekwondo, you to get a sense of who you are. You just have to be who you are. And so I thank you very much for being on the show, Patti. - [Patricia] Thank you, Sheila. - And I want to say the same thing to our audience. You know, you have to get a sense of who you are and just get used to it. (upbeat music)