Get Used to It: Ep. 72, "Immigration"

oh [Applause] [Music] hi welcome to get used to it i'm sheila cuell your coordinator facilitator hostess and as always today we have a fascinating topic to of interest to the gay and lesbian community and i think beyond because today we're going to talk about immigration issues specifically the way in which they might impact our community and the way our community participates in the larger world of immigration as you know there are lots and lots of people in the world that want to come to the united states and the united states has laws and rules about who can come into the country there are only certain ways in which one would qualify we don't have open borders so there have been a number of problems that have arisen and are gaining visibility but don't have much visibility yet in the community hence the reason for this show it's my pleasure to welcome today as our guests jeff kim from the los angeles gay and lesbian center who's deputy director of legal services and coordinator of uh the immigration cases there welcome jeff welcome honey thank you right and i feel welcome too that was nice [Music] no that was nice um next is chris heiss who's the co-chair of an organization called immigration equality which is the los angeles chapter of the lesbian and gay immigration rights task force welcome chris thank you happy you're here and finally tim miller whose face you might know if you've been to any of his uh forty thousand shows over the past several years a great solo performer uh founding director of highways here in los angeles which is a uh as he put it a fierce alternative arts center and you probably remember that tim was also one of those singled out by the national endowment for the arts for non-funding uh because he told too much of the truth not just about our community but i think about the world so welcome tim thanks jeff i want to start with you um just basically as as you kind of explained it to me the other day there are a number of issues that arise for our community related to immigration some of our community from other countries seek asylum based on persecution in their countries some want to come here because their relatives are here their family is here but run into a problem because if you're married to a united states citizen you can get in but if you're not and of course we're not allowed to marry you run into a problem or you may need to prove that you have a job there may be an employer who wants you here and there are also exclusions people who even if they were to qualify under any of those issues or the lottery that i guess other countries are allowed to engage in to get people here they may still be excluded on certain bases so let me start out asking you about the issue of asylum how does that work and has it changed recently in terms of how the united states is looking at people applying for asylum sure sheila assam is a very important way for our community to come to the united states assange was created out in the aftermath of world war ii when everyone realized that millions of people that unnecessarily died because countries didn't really understand the concept of refugees so there was a universal declaration of human rights and the whole asylum mechanism was created and it's something that's evolved over the years um people who are fleeing persecution based on race or religion or opinion or nationality or a category category called membership of a particular social group are allowed to seek asylum and so you've got these obvious categories of race etc relatively recently the united states has joined other countries in understanding that persons persecuting the base of sexual orientation or gender identity should also have access to asylum in 1990 just a decade ago a man by the name of tubosa alfonso cuban was granted asylum by the by the board of immigration appeals and it was the first time that the u.s government said that gays and lesbians could be counted in this catch-all category called membership in the particular social group before then we didn't have access to asylum so was that a lack of understanding or even belief or credibility as to how endangered we were in other countries how persecuted we were um i think a lot of had to do with just pure homophobia um people believe that we could change that you know it's not an immutable characteristic so why should they have protections like um the people who are persecuting the base of their race get so i think it was pure homophobia but thankfully um attorney general reno in 1994 took a look at that decision that was made in 1990 and said okay we're going to make this the policy of the us government so that people didn't that advocates for uh gays and lesbians seeking islam united states didn't have to go through so many hoops just to prove that they should apply for asylum now how do you apply for asylum do you apply from the country where you are or do you have to you know swim to shore and uh somehow show up and say i i want asylum um if you're outside of the country then you're actually uh known as a refugee you're trying to apply through the mechanisms outside the united states it's a much harder prospect than if you're actually in the united states so um as a term of art asylum means asylees are folks who apply from within the united states um they're already here and they realize that if they were made to go back to their home country they'd face all sorts of horrible things so they may be here so-called legally or illegally right right right doesn't matter how you hear if you can prove that you have a well-founded fear of persecution because of your sexual orientation in your home country and the and the asylum officer the immigration judge believes your case then you know you'll get asylum so you could say well i have a well-founded fear of persecution because i'm gay and in my country that means a death sentence but before this recognition of our category it was it the case that we simply weren't believed um there must have been evidence that you know there was significant persecution oh that there was but it just they made a decision not to give asylum and so people were returned to their countries and yes and it's also important to remember that uh for the longest time uh gays and lesbians were considered in asylum law as in many other areas of the law sexual deviance or biological errors or some something was wrong with them so that they didn't deserve in the immigration law until 1990 until um it was corrected in the 1990 revisions we could be excluded because just because of our sexual orientation interesting well as i indicated and i think it may be a a way to also talk about these exclusions you could qualify in any way one of the ways that is required you might win the lottery in you know ireland or ethiopia or wherever um i don't mean literally but i mean have your your number come up i guess as the next person who will be allowed to immigrate to the united states and still be excluded on certain bases that's correct and what i heard you say was before 1990 simple sexual orientation in and of itself was a basis for exclusion but it no longer is right but hiv status is isn't it yes that was um after 1990 i think uh some folks who really weren't pleased with that change um try to find other ways surrogate ways to maybe um put a roadblock for our community to emigrate to the united states and so i think in 1993 um under the leadership of jessie helms the hiv exclusion was passed and that's been in effect since then and it's it's many people protested this particular ex ground of exclusion because until then the public health authorities in the united states were the ones who made the decision whether or not a particular disease would be the grounds for excluding somebody it was not a political decision it was a medical decision but in 93 they codified one disease they just named it hiv and aids so in a way they're kind of singling it out uh in a special way they're singling out that category so other communicable diseases would not be found in statute right but the public health authorities now are there sort of across the board exclusions for other medical conditions there's the category known as communicable diseases but again that's determined by medical professionals the public health service of the united states determines what diseases go on that list and if you have a medical advancement they maybe can deal with that disease maybe it'll be removed by them but unfortunately hiv is written in the law so even if we had even if it was not a threat anymore and i would argue that it's not really a threat it's still in the law so you have to exclude people based on their hiv status what are the other basis of exclusion you've got a whole host and actually congress revised or reformed the law in 1996 and added many grounds that many immigrant immigrant rights advocates are just appalled by they vastly expanded the crimes uh the category of crimes to which people can be excluded or deported and so now you have situations where people who've been here for decades somehow get in contact with the ins let's say at a checkpoint or something or they're coming back from a trip from abroad and out pops a very minor crime or a series of minor crimes really minor and that you know someone who's been living peacefully and law-abidingly for decades you know there have been stories of people being deported well there must be some overlap here then because i would assume in many countries simply being gay is a crime yes be then if you've been prosecuted in your country for nothing else except your sexual orientation status because in america we we don't like status crimes or at least we try not to but in many countries you simply are something and therefore you're a criminal would that be sufficient basis for exclusion you've been prosecuted in your country for being gay um very good question i i i would doubt that no because that would be the crimes you've committed in the united states right that would be going from prosecution to persecution i mean i mean in a way it's you know it would it would be difficult to draw the line many would argue that that's actually yeah you should give a sign for somebody who's been prosecuting their own country just for being who they are well it is it is an aspect of the persecution is that the law itself would be so uh draconian well chris there's another obviously another problem that um that we face as a community and um you had talked to me about the sort of the the relationship uh issue and it tim i think you're the sort of the reigning expert on this at the moment um can you talk a little bit about your situation and uh this the basis of it is that one of the ways that people from other countries can be allowed to immigrate to the united states is because they are married to or related to a united states citizen right so what is your circumstance well i'm in a i've been in this relationship for six years with my partner alistair who's a australian national though also has uh british british citizenship and it's really been this amazing journey and i've followed you know immigration inequality in terms of lesbian and gay issues for a long time around horror stories of people wearing a pink triangle her refused entry at an airport during the worst of things 10 years ago and of course the hiv exclusions that jeff's been talking about but it all really brought was brought home to me by the fact that as an american citizen my relationship of six years is absolutely not only not valued but is deeply disrespected and i'm penalized for and of course where any heterosexual person u.s citizen could could meet someone after the show today and you know get in their car and drive to las vegas and five hours from now be the wedding chapel get married and tomorrow could go to an ins office and begin the process for fiance green card and almost certainly unless that their partner foreign partner had blown up a bridge somewhere would would eventually weaving through a bureaucratic process become get a green card and could then become a us citizen this is someone you could meet you know and and tomorrow begin that process where no lesbian or gay american citizen can uh even if you're together with your partner for 30 40 or 50 years will our relationships under current law be ever respected the humanity of the relationships be respected for immigration purposes and this this really blew my brains out because it was so it's so grotesquely unfair it's just so ridiculous that that one us citizen a heterosexual us citizen has this huge right this huge special right of course which is to fall in love with someone from another country invite them into your nation to share your life share your home and you know that our government respects the relationship values that through marriage which is a whole other discussion since of course we're denied all of those you know hundreds and hundreds of special rights that are reserved for heterosexuals but this is one huge really really shockingly unjust one because it's very hard to get around some of the other special rights reserved for straight people through through marriage you can if you've got a clever lawyer you can kind of finesse about 100 000 pieces of paper and right you know get the same kind or you might be able to get medical benefits or adopt each other or whatever figure out property or you know all that or cobble together domestic partnerships as in certain states and municipalities but this one is because it's federal it's existential because as alistair and i are facing when his student visa ends a year from now um you know we're really offered three opportunity options by by american law right now we can break up we can they'll deport alistair or together we'll have to seek go into exile and see either seek asylum in canada under their more you know one of the most progressive immigration laws um or fortunately you know unlike the united states alistar's two countries australia and great britain would respect the humanness of our relationship and i i could immigrate to australia great britain as alistair's partner of course as an american you know citizen the idea that i have to leave my country to maintain my gay family is so so upsetting so of course i made a show about it well you are an artist after all right so you made a show about it i know you've been touring with this show what do you do in your show well it's a piece called glory box which is the australian expression for hope chess you know the container of things for marriage and it's that the piece really engages what alistair and i've been going through the dramas of visas refused being separated by some cranky american worker in a consulate in australia that kept us apart for six months because they wouldn't give aleister a piece of paper um i'm wanting to touch on the the huge gross inequities of the denial of relationship rights to to gay people but also to tell a love story and a really really emotional story of the fact that these relationships are being being destroyed by our government every week i hear about somebody who's separated at an airport or they're forced to um there's a whole community of expatriate american citizens in vancouver right now it seems to be the destination of people who've just since we're not respected here we have to go somewhere where our love is valued so i've turned it into a show which i think is a really good piece and it's two things one to educate people to gain awareness because most lesbian and gay people are not so aware of this issue and right forget the larger community but also as a simultaneously as an educational tool but also to kind of do a little grassroots organizing wherever i go and i've already done the show in about 30 cities and it's performance even at a small scale of um you know performing these theaters and museums it's a really good way to through media you get attention suddenly people become aware of the issue and as i've traveled around it's just been so moving to meet the hundreds and hundreds of of lesbian and gay bi-national couples and to hear their stories and these horrors and as painful as that is and also what alistair and i are going through it's also so inspiring because it's a real it's a real testament to love and the power of lesbian gay relationship and love that people are managing it's hard enough to have a relationship period but to have one when the your own government is actively trying to destroy your relationship is very challenging well you told me a story about a couple in san diego because and it made me think about the the sort of the next rings of people who are affected as well uh two women i believe that have some have children yeah this is kind of through the performances of course you gather community get two or three hundred people together in san diego and i always almost always do you know audience dialogues at the end of the show there are many bi-national couples there a lesbian couple a french woman an america and her american partner shared this really really i think they probably have been forced to leave by now because of course france like every other you know almost every western country and australia new zealand and south africa and namibia getting my list in um you know respects the basic humanity of lesbian and gay love you know for these purposes but since our country does not respect our humanity there were forced to leave to go to exile in france which is one thing we don't think oh this this this isn't just them it's of course it's affecting their co-workers their friends their family and their the parents of the american um citizen were there the who were the grant this to these lesbian this lesbian couple had two children um of course the grandparents are they're getting up and talking in front of this audience not only are our is our daughter and our daughter-in-law there were forced to leave but we are not our our grandchildren are being forced to leave because american government tries to destroy lesbian and gay families whenever it possibly can and it was the audiences crying and the grandparents are crying and you know it was so moving and just for those two or three hundred people in san diego to get to would probably never thought about this issue before to suddenly realize that our country our laws are actively flinging these loving relationships and their children freaking out their families their friends their kind of complex weave of community it got people so mad well and it should you know it's always been interesting to me i mean you are an artist um and yet or in addition you've really chosen to completely devote your work to you know political issues to social issues to stirring the pot to you know to making people think and there are a lot of people in our community even who are artists and performers but they don't make the experience of our community sort of the essence of their work has it been a satisfying thing for you i think yeah along with that feeling of just being in awe of these binational couples i'm meeting you know the other thing it's really been a great reminder just the power of art and because it's you know i'm one guy with my little pasted together maps of the world and you know do the show in 70 or 80 cities over a couple years but when you know out of a visit to phoenix or atlanta a new chapter of people binational couples come together and they start organizing and um you know form you know phoenix lesbian gay immigration rights task force or as happened in june out of challenging the audience to because there's we'll talk about it there's a currently a bill that's been introduced in congress that would remedy this challenging the audience to call a specific congress person in atlanta the fabulous congressperson john lewis and the two weeks later to have you know and through you know a dozen phone calls from upset feelingful audience members who've just kind of lived with this can have an impact and really can yeah and so that's just really you know not to to my own horn with this it's more just the just the power of raising our voices whether it's through art or activism but but specifically to remember that art is a great way of building community and creating change well it's um and you brought up the the issue of activism and i was interested chris because i had not heard of immigration equality um until you know until now but would you kind of elucidate a little bit on your work and how it relates to some of these couples that um tim is talking about and the the real issue of our inability to keep our families together in the united states yeah actually what we're trying to do is give support to those couples which is very hard because i mean it's such a cruelty to forcefully separate a loving caring couple and i mean this this to me it always reminds me of nazi germany you know where yes there are these laws but it's laws we created and then we we think this is now the law we have to enforce like there's nothing more important that than actually tearing loving couples apart and rather than you know supporting people loving people and we try to give support to couples which is not easy because of course lots of people are afraid lots of couples are afraid they are asking they're asking well if we come to the meeting is there an ins officer who follows me home and then deports my partner and and i can see their fear and it's actually so sad that there are people in this free country who you know who do their jobs who pay their taxes who actually have to live in this fear in this constant fear just because some people don't agree with the person they fell in love to now nowadays in this world you know we're traveling all over the places you don't know with whom you fall in love tomorrow but if it happens to be someone of your own sex and if it happens that this is someone from another country you're gonna have a problem because you are really forced to choose between your country and your lover and and i think this is this is a very cruel situation well i think i think we would all agree and i think people watching would agree too but the issue hasn't had a great deal of visibility in our community yes and i think of course it deserves greater visibility tell me more about the national task force of which you said immigration equality yes is the los angeles chapter yes the lesbian gay immigration rights task force is is located the headquarters is located in new york city and they give support and try to help people creating local chapters also what tim mueller talked about those local chapters and trying to support them in their activism one basic point is that we also try to educate you know educate each and everybody about this issue because um how can straight people know about it if even the queer community is not aware that there is such a problem and from our own outreach if we go like to gay pride festivals a lot of times i mean people stop and can't believe that that this is such a serious thing that's going on in this free country you know like we're criticizing other countries for the inhumane habits and and we're we're actually doing the same because we say one group of people one group of citizens is just not worth to have same or equal rights and same protection under current laws so tell me a little bit about the legislation that's been proposed well and it was a congressman nadler from the state of new york who introduced h.r 3650 the permanent partners immigration act in february 14th valentine's day and that law actually if it would pass well probably won't we don't know it would actually stop this inequality because it would allow the u.s citizen and the legal permanent resident to sponsor their foreign partner for the purpose of residing here in the united states now is it limited to same-sex it actually says um permanent partners in referring to permanent partners those who are not able to marry their partner obviously uh because i i would think there would be a sort of an inherent weakness in congress where they might say well if it wasn't limited in some way you can just bring in you know a friend or just someone who paid you right obviously to do it right but you also don't know like what we talked before like with with straight marriages who controls this who checks that you know and so asking i already live to a much higher standard it's it's kind of a little bit funny too not only that but we all know that over the course of certainly my whole lifetime i've heard of people you know arranging marriages so that they could could be here and and then of course the government passed this law having to do with uh staying in your marriage for a couple of years so it wouldn't be a sham um and all kinds of things that people do to try to you know make their lives work right in essence well the immigration rights community the sort of i guess we would say the larger immigration rights community ones that we normally associate with national origin discrimination or race discrimination how have they received or embraced or rejected or welcomed or not our participation in the immigration rights sort of struggle well the the larger immigration community is not aware of our situation and you also find out if you call the one other group and asking well did you ever hear about hr 3650 permanent partners immigration act usually they never heard of it so for us it's also very important to raise this awareness inside the immigration community outside of that within the queer community outside of that and really speak up wherever we can to whomever we've meet and people most of the people i talk to like in tim's case they they are concerned i mean you always have a few who don't care about it but they're almost like shocked if you really make it clear to them look this is going on in our country but does immigration equality have um at least the beginning of some kind of relationship with the rest of the immigration yeah we actually started building some riches with some of the organizations and groups also like different ethnic groups and it was quite interesting because just this year it was sherlock the collision for humane immigration rights los angeles who actually drafted an amnesty proposal and they put in their proposal um also domestic partners actually trying to unify um workers families and domestic partners yeah it's been very interesting to me because the gay and lesbian activism like most uh sort of identity activism when we first started out was very kind of insular it was about us we were the only ones doing it we were the only ones who cared about it and over the years it seems in so many of our different issues and arenas we've started and had to make connection to build coalition uh in recognition that other people suffering because of discrimination isn't all that different and we're also having to sell them on the fact that ours isn't all that different i mean i've seen this for instance in the labor movement um and and we actually had a discussion in one of our shows about that where there are so many gay and lesbian people in the labor movement who couldn't come out partly because a lot of ethnicity in the labor movement that was not so welcoming to gay and lesbian folks and partly because it just didn't seem like you know that was the most important discrimination issue when we're talking about working people um so i i'm interested to see and i will be interested to see how our issues get integrated if they do with other immigration issues because that's been a very uh very active movement though i think not you know not very well funded certainly not very grassroots and i assume that that our immigration activism is very much the same very grassroots yes and and immigration equality were a handful of volunteers who try to do everything besides regular jobs and yes we i think we're all aware that we have to do so much more but for our outreach we just recently received a grant from the liberty hill foundation in order that money would give us some way to really spread the word and doing all kinds of things for example we also have scheduled town hall meetings with different groups and different community groups and one is specifically set up for um the straight immigration community target those and so we really try to you know to to spread the word all over the place but you also need some people who want to listen hopefully we have enough it's true well jeff what kind of support you get for your work at the center i mean is it um has it been difficult to sort of immigra integrate the immigration issues in the legal services department did you bring the issues to them or how did how did this become something the center did um not really it hasn't been difficult i think it's been very natural because the center provides so many social services and many of us the recipients of the services are immigrants and so the issue issues about around immigration status come up in all different contexts so it was it wasn't it hasn't been that difficult and actually we decided to focus put a concerted focus on immigration around the time of prop 187 because we in 1993 and 94 because we recognized that we were just getting more calls from immigrants who were just concerned about they hadn't even been dealing with you know their immigration status and all of a sudden they faced this strong anti-immigrant climate in the united states in california and they wanted to know what they could do to get their papers what they can do to legalize et cetera so we were just getting a bump up in calls and so we decided internally to focus on serving providing immigration services bringing in members of the attorney community uh to just to talk to clients and counsel them and so since that time we've just been growing the i mean l.a county is you know 30 40 percent immigrants and you know one of the largest gay and lesbian populations in the country and so you put the two together and you're going to have tens of thousands of immigrants of queer immigrants and many of them are going to need immigration services or have questions or could benefit from h.r 3650 you know you mentioned prop 187 people outside california may not know although i know they know that we have tons of initiatives every year because we have a bad reputation because of all of our sort of awkward law making through initiatives but prop 187 was a proposed initiative which failed which would have said that if you are actually failed in the courts but if you are here without papers you could not get public education and you couldn't get any uh public medical treatment and it was a terrible idea because frankly it's what you're doing is saying to people you can't go to school but you're here you can't get medical treatment but you're sick and you're here so i thought it was obviously and spoke out against it and campaigned against it but i wonder whether there were people in our community who really got it in terms of the connection or not i mean there's really sort of two sets of connection that i always see one of them is the relationship of one kind of discrimination with another that is we're you know gay and we get discriminated against do we understand how important it is to show up for other people's issues and of course the second connection which we now learn about which is the overlap of our gay community and immigration community didn't seem to me like i heard much in our community about 187 did you um in the service community you did i don't know in the general public um in the service committee many of us rallied around because we served especially the hiv community we rallied around well if the law passes and it's enforced we will not we will not and we will not have any part in that enforcement of that law because we have clients whose lives on the line we can't you know check their immigration status and deny them services because of this or that um but i did notice that you know we also were getting some calls from people who were questioning why the gay and lesbian center was look you know getting involved with immigration you know they would say it's not a gay and lesbian issue why are you getting involved with it and you know i couldn't i couldn't understand that but um we were getting those kind of calls well i remember we the center had a panel of attorneys um at the celebration of the anniversary of the bill of rights and we talked about what the bill of rights said and why you know it applied to our community or whatever and then we opened up the auditorium for questions and there were mics out in the audience and this young man came up to the mic and he said and i swear this is true well i understand why there's discrimination against people of color or women but why us [Laughter] do you run into this kind of stuff when you do a show i mean do you get i i know that you're talking about people awakening to the truth of it but what about the opposite well i i think what you were talking about it's almost all people in the world and certainly americans because of some of our xenophobia and our cl in closeness we all need to develop our empathy to connect who i am what my concerns are the ways i feel empowered the ways i feel disempowered and be able to extend that empathy to people who are not the same as us and gay people need to do that of course the general population needs to do it a great deal as well and i would certainly put more of an onus you know as much as there's work the lesbian and gay community needs to do i would also you know remember that a state that is primarily a majority vast majority heterosexuals voted by 61 to deny us the basic human right of marriage on on in march of this year um you know i woke up feeling very unhappy as a fourth generation californian to live in a state that doesn't respect my my humanness on the other hand you know we have work to do there and that's you know we have to make educate and connect and communicate and help people start to make those connections i have found that this what what we're talking about especially the bi-national couple issue because it's so partly because we start talking about american citizens it's not just we're talking about right you know and americans are very interested in americans um and self-involved and and all that but suddenly the thought well i don't think you know what i hear a lot when i you know will engage university students or a more general audience is you know well i don't think you people should have marriage rights you know um but it's crazy that you're you're having to leave because your lover is not from here and you know and that's a start i mean that's a beginning that's starting to see they're recognizing that i'm a human being that i my my partner of many years that i love and cherish is valuable to me and and those are the building blocks i hope and i do hear a lot of that and one of the things i'm you know hopeful about is partly it takes a really mean really mean mean person to think that a committed loving partnership should be destroyed i mean it's just so it goes against american sentimentality and we're very sentimental culture loving love stories in a way and because this is about a love story it's about people from different countries coming together against all odds and connecting and i have found it's a way to cut through some homophobia actually and had that happen many times we see the light bulb go on and i think i think that happens within our own community too this particular window into the immigration story is a way for people to really see oh wait gay people really are second-class citizens we really don't have the same rights because straight person a can marry someone and stay in america and their partner can work and get all the benefits of of being a citizen and gay person b can do none of that and that's i think we need to keep reminding our own community that of course as as chris and and jeff were mentioning that by other nation standards um we're not really a civilized nation in terms of how we treat lesbian and gay people we could not be part of the european community of nations because of the human rights violations against gay people we would be hauled up in front of the the court of human rights as england was to change to allow lesbians and gay people to serve in the military the sodomy laws in the 15 or 16 states are considered a violation of the european charter of human rights um certainly the immigration the breaking up of lesbian and gay families so that's getting lesbian and gay americans to consider wait a minute we're not even we we aren't we aren't leading the world and human rights in this regard and in many other ways and that's a good politicizing thing and it helps our community i think get get more energized and also hopefully build some empathy for the the other immigration issues here whether it's 187 as you're talking about or these incredible stories of people first deeply persecuted for being lesbian or gay and that i'm seeing that start to shift which is is very inspiring well it's been interesting i don't think people really get what immigration law is at all because they don't have to bother with it i mean i don't think people understand what the barriers are not just for our community but for everybody to bring a family member here or how you have to prove this and that i mean i remember in the battered women's movement we had a terrible time with the fact that in this issue of sham marriages that you would need to stay together for those two years and then go as a couple to prove to the ins that you were still together in order that the person who had emigrated could stay here and we were busy trying to get better women away from their batterers and so they would have to then reunite with their batterers in order to go to the ins and prove that this marriage was still going on and eventually the work of advocates and activists helped to change that law so that even though the standard of proof is still very high and it doesn't work very well still for battered women at least they can go on their own and say you know i've left him because he was abusive uh here are my restraining orders and whatever and still be allowed to stay but to make the immigration law work for real people it's just really not been the history generally for just about anybody and it's i think it's time for our community to focus on this you know as an issue do you find that many people have shown up on this issue or uh do you know are there volunteers that have come to immigration equality wrecking you know is there growth kind of in the activism on this issue well i would say we as i said we have a handful of volunteers those who want to step out and really be outspoken and they take the risk you know of probably jeopardizing the application process um and it's um but some of them also try to be the time you know because the visa might expire soon they try to do whatever they can in order to make a change no matter how little that is i think most people are coming forward because and they want to get their particular immigration situation solved and then i mean that's their most immediate concern so there are only a handful of people who can see beyond that um but i can understand why most people are focusing on their own immediate concerns interestingly um hrc one of the premier uh lesbian gay organizations until very recently wasn't as involved in immigration issues but through the efforts of tim and immigration equality and other folks around the country they did rally at some point around hr3650 and then their support to it so i think there is some movement um you know we do need we do need the national groups especially the ones that are in washington to help help us with the lobbying take the grassroots to that level where we can get some relief passed in legislation well the center's been kind of unique in uh in the way it kind of melds social services and activism um and i you know and i are are you participating jeff in this in these issues as well from an activist point of view um or is the center advocating as well as simply doing which is a good job you know one person at a time direct services i think the center is trying to i mean obviously we're primarily a social services agency um but we also see that we can't just be responding to just putting out fires we want to try to do you know broader public policy measures that can eliminate even the fire starting so we for instance with 187 and we did take a stand on that and we lend some leadership we are looking at this amnesty issue and how we can work on that you know how we can work with other organizations other mainstream immigrant rights organizations to kind of build that movement of social justice where all of the issues are kind of connected and move forward well i think it's interesting because we're joining essentially two disempowered groups here because they you know when you have two embattled minorities and you get a twofer that way it's very difficult to i think get people you know if you're talking about the gay lawyers association then at least as attorneys we have some clout and we can bring that to the issue but i would think it would exacerbate the problem that immigrants themselves are so without generally without resources and as you said worried about their own status i mean it's such a threatening situation the ins i think that's where the the bill the permanent partners immigration reform act is so important because it gives literally every single american voter a job to do which is if we can well first of all sadly because at this point there are 53 sponsors of the bill all of them democratic congress people what a surprise and and not only is no republican sponsored but we have the complete hostility of the current congressman smith who has basically indicated in print that he will never allow the bill to get reached the floor so i really feel on november 7th unless the democratic party takes back the u.s house of representatives and vice president gore becomes president gore i feel like there's no hope for my family to remain in the united states and shortly after that we will probably begin the process of of immigration asylum and in canada which gives me an enormous job in the next couple months and i'm really ringing the arms of family members and friends and people i come in contact with and people who suggest there's no difference between the parties which is complete nonsense so this is a very good little laser beam on that because of course vice president gore has come out in support of lesbian gay bi-national couples and and reforming this we have men you know dozens of democratic congress people so even here in california where i of course hope that our state which did not you know step to the be to the bat in the way i would have liked on the night in the night initiative but i'm hoping our state is going to turn the u.s congress back to the democratic party and then the nadler bill h.r 3650 can begin a process of of really giving this one basic chris was using the word cruelty which i think i'm going to start borrowing as i talk about this is profoundly cruel to be harassing loving partners in this way so i've never felt an election means more than this one well i obviously i agree not only from the partisan point of view but because there are so many things that an elected body like the congress or the state legislature really has control over i mean in california i vote on four thousand bills every two years and every single one of them affects quite a number of lives in one way or another not everybody's life right you know it might only have to do with a locality or you know a thin slice of humanity or children in kindergarten or whatever but there's an enormous affect and when people campaign we can't talk about every single one of the issues we simply can't there are too many so it's important to realize how many things that we don't even know about hang in the balance right on this election any election but particularly this election because i think the cruelty that you talked about you know people say well you don't have a right to be here in the country if you weren't born here you don't have a right and we would agree you don't have a right but if you're going to create a right or an ability right to be here as we have with marriage just across the board without question um then the quality aspect of it it seems to me comes to light have you had much success in you said that what immigration equality does is to provide support for these couples have you had any success or is it just really um you know i would i would say we just well a few months ago we had a potluck and it was i would say was very successful you know if you have about 24 people coming i think this is a big success compared to the whole situation and issue and we really try to make them feel comfortable also looking for places that are not so threatening and but i mean it's it's there's a constant fear as i said so that they're even not necessarily able to enjoy even going there you know because then you know well i'm going there and with this regarding this immigration issue and who knows how long we still can be together and i mean it's it's psycho stress from a through z permanent so does every permanent i mean are we we're simply out of luck on this at the moment well at the moment to me it looks it's you know you have to as tim said separate or leave the country or going underground or whatever it is it's no fun at all because or you just everybody loses thousands of dollars in like countless hours trying to stay in the united states through a variety of you have to jump through a variety of hoops it's just it is really cruel like what jeff what do people i mean i don't want to say that we're doing you know the wrong they're doing something they're doing we're trying to save our lives here many of our couples they respect the law and they want to be here legally right so they they have to research they have to hire attorneys um stay in school forever you know go find another job that maybe you know isn't really uh connected to their skills but they can stay because of that and so it's just so many hoops they have to jump through um it is like it's mental anguish i mean some of the some of the steps that people have to take just to stay here with their lover so what what do you do to help couples when they come to you uh as as the expert on immigration at the gay and lesbian center i mean it seems to me it's you're almost limited to nothing but reality therapy that is but that's very important because there are also a lot of uh unscrupulous people who prey on immigrants um in any community promising them you know for ten thousand dollars i'll get you this or that when it's completely bogus and but a lot of people are so desperate that they fall into that trap so the reality counseling is really important but then we also we we are blessed with attorneys from the community who are just you know very creative and very dedicated and they will counsel people on some of the ways because they've seen the situation so many times that counsel people on some of the the ways that people can stay legally in the united states it's going to take some more resources more time more headaches but you know increasingly being legal in the united states is really important um so that's that's part of what we do and also just because i've received you know probably a dozen emails a day from a binational couple in minnesota or florida or somewhere just because i people from touring and i always put my email out just providing some kind of community just as 30 years ago in the lesbi nascent lesbian gay movement you are not alone it's not just you and to know you are one of many thousands of of lesbian and gay bi-national couples and it's very very powerful especially at a moment where someone's just their partner has been refused entered an airport or they they just had to separate it's it's such a fragile human moment and just just that there's others here there is hope though the reality therapy thing at this point it's grim there is this glimmer that you know change could come and america could join the community of civilized nations sometime soon in this regard it's definitely not hopeless right now though november 8th will tell us what degree it is hopeful clearly and it's not an issue that we can go state by state on because this is clearly just a federal issue so it wouldn't be that some enlightened state maybe this one and maybe not this one could say well you're welcome here you know because we are absolutely precluded from doing anything about immigration vermont vermont by national couple is in no better situation in terms of immigration they're better in every other way or most other ways but in none of the federal right they still are going to probably have to move 300 miles north to quebec although local governments can take a moral stand like they do in san francisco to pass an act of refuge saying you know it's symbolic but it's basically on the side of the planet by national couples and i know that you're working on one with the city of west hollywood right say something about that i mean it's actually what what the city of san francisco did with their resolution this indicates you know to people it it gives them i think a much needed moral support and and this is as tim said too you know to make them understand there are some people already working on this issue they are aware of this cruelty and there is hope and i think this is the most important message to even get out that there is hope i mean 14 other countries so far passed laws specifically to allow your foreign same-sex partner to immigrate germany is working on the law right now i mean i don't know if america can always exclude itself from from the rest of the world you know well it's always a struggle here isn't it between our worst selves and our better selves you know i mean you talk about partisan politics and i and yet of course i run into people my own party who don't get this and i'm not excusing it obviously this vote in uh this november or uh if we're you know if we're in rerun then of course we know how it turned out but we don't know how it will turn out um really is an important thing and something that people haven't thought of really at all so what would you encourage people watching this show to do right now register if you haven't registered to vote good you have a week left in california to do that call your congress person if nothing else i always tell people at the end of my shows even if you don't know by national couple you know me now you've watched you've listened to me yammer for 90 minutes tell them my friend tim an american citizen contributed greatly you know founded to arts organizations blah blah is forced to leave the country because we don't recognize this partner call and express sure that someone you know and your community is being being forced to do that and people they send me emails i did i felt so empowered i'd never called my congress person you know that's hugely hugely important people don't call i mean they don't a lot of people don't call me they don't send emails they don't think it'll well either they don't think it's going to do any good or they don't know that you can just do that but it is a very powerful thing to do well amazingly enough we're out of time and i really really grateful to the three of you for uh elucidating this issue there will be some names and phone numbers at the end under the titles of the show if you're interested in contacting immigration equality or the task force in your area i think that we are going to win the struggle it may take a while i hope that you will participate in every way you can that you'll vote that you'll organize that you'll raise your voice and that in terms of bi-national couples will be able to get used to it thanks [Music] so [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] you