Get Used to It: Ep. 50, "Show Number 50 The Best of the Best"

- Coming up next is the 50th show of "Get Used To It". The best of the best, so don't go away. (computer chimes) (upbeat music) Hi, I'm Sheila Kuehi. Welcome to "Get Used to It." Today we're doing a really special show, because this is our 50th show. We've been doing this show for more than five years, and we wanted to show you a pieces of a bunch of the shows that we've done. Because what we've tried to do in the course of this show, is to deal with those issues arising in the gay and lesbian community, that affect us politically, that affect our everyday lives. That affect the way other people see us. And most importantly, that affect the way we see ourselves. So you will see pieces of number of these shows. And I wanna draw your attention to a couple of things, 'cause ill bet you'll notice them as we go along. One is, sometimes the sets will be different. Well that's because we started out kind of on a shoestring, and I'll bet you can tell our earlier sets, from the later set, not that we're rich, but at least we put a little more color here. Secondly, I was running for office during a couple of those years. And since when you're running for office, you're not supposed to be supposed to be on television, unless they give equal time to the other guy. We had some guest hosts, so you'll see them as well. Jehan Agrama, Phill Wilson, Jay Fong, and Malcolm Boyd. And now I wanna show you a piece from our very first show, which occurred just before president Clinton was elected the first time. And you'll see our guests were David Mixner, Tori Osborne, Charles Stewart, talking about what we expected out of this president, some of which came true, and some of which didn't. - I guess the first question that viewers will have and certainly the first question I wanna pose to you is, why is this election important to us. David you're working in Clinton's campaign, you must think it's important to us in some way. What do you think? - I actually think it's historic, I think it's the most important election in the history of our community. Everything's at stake, It's like we have the prince darkness, and the princes of light. And aside on one side, we have a person who will practice and continue to practice repression, do little on aids, point more Clarence Thomas's to the Supreme court, take away a woman's right to choose, and on the other side, we have a candidate who committed to passing progressive civil rights legislation, and executive orders for gays and lesbians, who would declare war on aids, who will appoint distinguish people to the Supreme court of this land and the federal court, other federal judiciary appointments and who will fight hard, to protect road versus Wade in the process. - In terms of how the movement or the movement's responsibility, or how we're responding. Why is this important to us this year? I mean, we've kind of adjourned electoral politics sometimes in the movement. - Well, this opens up a whole new day for the movement. I mean completely re-frames the issues of the future. If Bill Clinton gets into office within some amount of time, we know he's gonna sign a ban of discrimination in the military. He's gonna help pass the federal civil rights legislation. I mean, we have been working against a right wing, powerfully organized against us for the last 12 years. Against genital indifference in the Reagan Bush campaigns on aids to we've had to fight for every inch of the terrain. What it does is it means we get to move forward on the issues that we have public support for discrimination, the military and so forth. But more importantly, it opens up for the nineties, the political space for us to really move forward, on domestic partnership and gay marriage. On gay youth, gay lesbian youth issues, teenage suicide, three times the national average. And so what you you'll see is that totally changed terrain. - Charles there in working on the local level. Have you seen a any difference that this campaign is making in our community? - Well, I think that in terms of galvanizing people who are interested in being on a winning team. I think that here to four, we've been able to play a symbolic role. We've been involved, we've supported democratic candidates in the past, but we haven't been able to go with the candidate the distance. Now we're beginning to taste victory, and I think that that's important and significant, and it's something we've earned, it's something we deserve. And so now it's just making it to the end, making sure that the candidate wins, and that we are there to make it clear to everyone, to remember ourselves, and to remind the world that we are here, we're not going anywhere. So "Get Used to It." - "Get Used to It." (all laugh) - You know, we called this show "Get Used to It" because we wanted to be a little bit in everybody's face about gay and lesbian issues, and gay and lesbian people. All the people that appear on this show are gay or lesbian people, with only very, very few exceptions over these past five years. We wanted this show to be a Chronicle, of the issues that we've dealt with over these years. We wanted this show to look internally at our community and say, What's going on? What's great about it?" What's going on that we're maybe not so proud of? We wanted this show to look at the outside world and the way they looked at us, we wanted this show to show our diversity. So some of the shows that we did, the ones that you'll see next dealt with the racism that we found in our own community. We wanted to talk about this, but at the same time, we didn't wanna ignore the fact, that there was a great deal of homophobia in communities of color, like the black communities and the black churches. And I was joined for these shows, both of these shows, by Phill Wilson and one of the founders of the black and lesbian leadership forum, who was co-host for one of the shows, as you'll see. - How does this problem manifest itself in our community. Our community that thinks that we're somehow better about these issues than other people, because we get oppression or whatever. And yet this is not the case. - Well, it manifest itself in different ways. Myself personally I've had to deal with groups not being sensitive to my culture, as far as family is concerned. My religion, coming out, or just not addressing certain issues that are important to me and my eye culture, I don't know for the other guest, how it's manifested itself there. But as far as the community action is concerned, seems that people of color always make the effort to go to gay lesbian, demonstrations, protest, meetings, clubs, organizations, and we as people of color don't seem to get the same support that I feel we give the gay and lesbian, the mainstream gay and lesbian movement. - Well, it's Primarily a white community, at least in front of the cameras or in terms of what people refer to as the leadership, we talk about the leadership of the gay and lesbian community. And the best we get, is a sort of perhaps a notion of inclusion but that's not really enough. Is it Phill? I think that it absolutely not enough. I think that in the final analysis, if in fact the gay lesbian movement, is about liberating gay lesbian people. And it is about in fact, a progressive agenda. Then it is absolutely imperative that every level of that community reflects the reality of the gay lesbian community and the reality of what we know to be the American society. - We've seen racism evolve in the lesbian and gay community. We've gone from require people of color to produce three picture IDs to get into a bar, that was at one time. And now we've seen it evolve into the systematic exclusion of people of color in the decision making process. And I think that's the worst form of racism. - Welcome Phill. - Well, thank you Sheila's. It's a pleasure to be here. Today's show is very, very exciting, and I'm glad to be the co-host. - Well, not as glad as I am. (Phill and Sheila laugh) I'm really happy you're here. - As a black gay man, I want to begin by asking the question, how does it feel as an African American lesbian and as an African American gay man, when you experience homophobia in the black community? - I think it's one of the most dehumanizing and humiliating experiences to be in a situation, with regard to myself, it's mostly in church. I do a lot of church work in the community, and I work with a youth choir. And many times, especially during the holidays, my choir that I work with was performing. And there's always a point in a service or a worship experience, where there is the invitation. And frequently in the last couple months, the invitation became a litany of the demons, or the things that young people are facing. And inevitably the very first demon that's cited in the litany is the demon of homosexuality. - The loyalty test plays out like this, are you black or are you gay? Are you African American or are you lesbian? Or are you lesbian first or you're African an American first? Are you gay first or are you black first? Is that a legitimate question? - No. It isn't a legitimate question. And I say that because when I come to you, I come to you as all that I am. I'm an African American lesbian womanist. That is all who I am, which means that, and when I identify myself at that, as that. It's saying that I recognize that my power, as well as my primary oppression comes out of my color, out of my social orientation, also out of my gender. And I come to you as a total and complete person. And what we are asking is African American lesbian and gays, is simply to have mutual stretching between the two. I mean, I'm still African American woman. I work just as hard to work towards issues of racism as I do towards any the issues of homophobia. - When I'm called a nigga and I go home, my mother has had that experience, my father has had that experience but the day that I'm called a faggot and I go home, even though in my a case, my mother and my father they love me. And they certainly, they empathize with that, I mean, they sympathize with that, but they can't empathize with that. They don't know what that's about. For a lot of us, the people who are hurling the apartheid are people who are from our community. - [Sheila] Right. - Another of the issues that we wanted to deal with, but also to model, to show, had to do with our families. There's this mythology out in the world that gay and lesbian people don't have families, that we don't have children, that our parents don't love us. But the truth is we invent our families. We choose our families, we put them together. And we did a number of shows. The first clip you'll see, Rich llewellyn and then Chris Caldwell and their children, and then Jehan Agrama and Dwora Fried and Jehan's father, and Jehan and Dwora's little girl. And then the final clip, another interesting family, Judith Light and her husband, Robert, and her manager, herb Hampshire and his partner, Jonathan. And they are a family. Here are our families. - Chris and I have been together now for 13 years and Robby and Rosie have been part of our lives for the last three. Our immediate family really consists of the four of us, my sister Jan, who lives here in Los Angeles. And about three of their gay uncles who are, like my sister, their godparents, and who are permanently part of their lives. - So they have a lot of sort of parents in a way, right? But do they see you as their two primary parents? - We're definitely their primary parents, primary caregivers. But as you said, there are a lot of people who are in the inner circle but, now the two are there at 3:00 AM. - We were intent on making everybody happy. And we realized that it's impossible. We didn't live together for over 10 years. We had two residences because we thought the children would be, my older would be more happy, if we would keep it a little more distant. And now I think we would do it completely different. Where would, first of all, make sure that we are happy and satisfied with the way we live our life and then have everybody else adjust. - Later on, I really was scared and I didn't wanna lose my family, which is the most important thing to me. Or my lover, which was the other most important thing to me. So it was a real struggle not to lose both. And I know a lot of people have to choose and have made choices and I think that's the saddest thing, when people cannot have both. - This thing that I just heard right now, that Dwora said, it makes me very sad. And I would like on behalf of whoever was involved really apologize that we made it very tough for you, especially at the beginning, really. - [Dwora] We love you very much. - Love you too. - Theoretically in a tetrahedron all points are equally connected to each other. - And each has a relationship with the other. - So given the tetrahedron configuration, does that mean that each one of you, feels you have an independent relationship with each of the other three? - Absolutely. - Completely. - Yeah. - Yeah. - But was that hard or kind of just not so hard. - [Robert] It's hard, it's difficult. - Go Robert. - That's real. I'm still working on mine. - All three of them. - Yeah. - But the truth is that you have as much of a relationship with each of us as each of us does with each other, yours is of a different. Our connections are powerful. - 'Cause all of you do have families, blood families. What is their response if any, to this arrangement? - Each of our biological families just simply accepts that this is our family. - I think what happens is people in their heads, it's very strange and they don't know what to do. And then they're with us and they have more heart connection they say, "Oh yeah, I get this. I don't know what it is, but this feels good." - Also I couldn't show up the I show up, if I didn't have their support, every single one of them. I would not be articulating the things that I'm articulating if it were not for them, these are the things we talk about. - Our community has also been involved, in some of the most cutting edge issues, of this last half of the 20th century. The larger issue in which the society is also engaged. We've done a lot of talking about gays in the military, and we did the one show that we did with an audience, was about this issue in which we invited Dusty Pruitt, who had brought a pretty famous court case, about serving in the military. And Bill Meredith whose father had served in a segregated military, talking about the similarities. As well as David Mixner to talk again about what Mr. Clinton was doing by now it was 1993. We also did shows about the ways in which, we must deal with our own issues due to show on substance abuse, and the ways in which it impacts our community, particularly did a show on domestic violence. One of those dirty little secrets that we pretend we don't even have in our community. And we did a show about, psychotherapy and psychology. And the way that larger science has affected us, first by demonizing us. And now in essence, kind of by redeeming us as healthy people. So here are some of those shows. - In terms of your own experience, what have you sort of learned from going through this case, and what would you like the people out there in cable land to know about it? - Well, my aim has always been to effect an end to this policy since I was young, and in the military, I saw a great deal of pain and a number of lives ruined as a result of this policy. I myself had to live under the policy and did for some time, suppressing a great deal of creative energy, looking over my shoulder, wondering when somebody was gonna turn me in, or accuse me of being a lesbian. And I said to myself, if I ever get a chance to bring this policy down I'm gonna do it. - You know, there's been a lot of ambivalence about what president Clinton did, and I'd be interested to hear your view on it. - Well, you should understand president Clinton, has some ambivalence about what he did. I mean, president Clinton, wanted to sign the executive order immediately. That was his desire, that was his wish, and that was his commitment. To us during the campaign. We always don't have control of events. And certainly when it comes to homophobia, racism and so forth, logic and rational thought is not a trademark of those institutions. In one week in the us capital, there were over a half a million phone calls, letters and telegrams, opposing lifting the ban. Senator nun came into the white house, and said, "If you signed at executive order, we will vote on it immediately, in the Senate to overturn it." We did a quick vote count, with the Senate leadership and the vote was 80 to 20 against us. - The issue right here I think is really being brought to not only by the right wing, but by older officers and men, because I had a lot of my enlisted and a lot of the younger officers, I said there was no problem with that. You know, we've been there, we've performed successfully, and many times I would venture to say that we were better sailors, Navy people, air force people, and Marines, than the average service person, because of the fear that somebody as Dusty pritt, touched upon, somebody can come up behind you. And for the simple reason being gay, ask you to be booted out or get you booted out, no matter how exemplary your record is. - The army itself is very guilty, the military is very, very guilty of double standards. When there is a war, they tend to re-look at who they have dis inducted out of the army. - During the second world war, they were looking at re-inducting gay men who had been put out of the army, because they were gay. If they had not done any public homosexual offenses. So, I mean the double standard has been there from the very beginning. And the two you listen to, and what side of the fence you wanna sit on. And all we're saying is let's get rid of the fence and let's all sit together. - So when we talk about substance abuse, people go right away to what they would consider, the bad drugs, and rarely talk about alcohol. Although in our community, there's been a growing consciousness I think about it. Well, we're getting ready to do a program about the extent of problems with substances in the community. And one of the panels is called "Stonewall Was A Bar." And it really has a lot to do with where we first felt comfortable coming out socializing. And to this day where a lot of people, find the roots of their identity, in being able to be around other people who are openly gay. - We've heard that there's an epidemic, of crystal use is rescue possible common. - Yeah. - What happens? - Yeah, absolutely, I think that rescues very possible. It takes a tremendous amount of will on the person. And it's not easy, it's not easy at all. Crystal is a very difficult, drug to get off of. And I have had many patients who have had multiple relapses before only being able to kick the habit. And, a lot of it comes from really wanting to make a change, and also from getting some psychotherapeutic intervention to help them along that path. - You know, so many of our men and women have used alcohol or drugs, to even get the courage to go to the bars, as gay men and lesbians. And it is the homophobia. And it's theirs and what they see out there. The crystal uses rampIt, there is no doubt what it's doing in our community, and we see the people whose lives have kind of, come to a halt. There's really nowhere for them to go, it's like they didn't die. Which for many of them is a sad thing to realize. And recovery and having these or is open to them, is not what their choice was. Their choice was out. Whatever they're using the drugs and alcohol for, they don't need to you can be who you are and make it in this community without the drugs and alcohol, but they provide such a buffer. - We know 96, 97% of batterers and heterosexual relationships are the men. But here we come to our community. Now this doesn't quite work, we've got two women, we've got two men. How is it different? - Yeah in many ways it's the same, in terms of the cycle of violence, the physical abuse that occurs all those tactics. Many of them are similar, but yes, it's very different in terms of that It doesn't fit to what we have conceived of as being the causes of domestic violence that have to do with the patriarchy and gender and the power of men over women. And the reality is that, again going back to the definition that it's really not about male, female. It's about power and control over another person. And I think, again, it's not at all about gender in and of itself. It is about, in the heterosexual domestic violence, heterosexism and sexism allows men to hold the power into batter women. And homophobia is a tool in our community that helps keep the silence and helps people sort of maintain and abuse, power and control over their partners. - It's much easier for me to sympathize with the victim. I feel like this batter is some kind of criminal, and of course, as we'll find out in a minute, he is, or she is. But what's going on with the batter. What's that dynamic about. - The batterer often feels like a victim himself or herself. And they feel like it's the other person's fault. And that tendency to blame some other person and to lay responsibility on the other is a very common thing for matters to do well. If only he hadn't said that, I wouldn't have had to hit him. Well, I just panicked. And, I felt like I just had to do something to get him to stop yelling at me. And, that kind of says, well, it was his yelling that really caused this, not my hitting him or her. And, so that they often feel the fear of abandonment. Well, I've got to keep them from leaving, If they leave me I will be gone. - I think one of the problems with particularly males, is that you have two men. And I think the attitude is, and it's not just homophobic, although I'm sure there's plenty of that involved. But the attitude is, well the two guys must be a fair fight. Everybody can protect themselves, or with women must be a cat fight, kind of thing. And everyone can protect themselves. So you guys just knock your heads against the wall and we're leaving figure it out yourself. With the change in the law, it's now required that an arrest made. Of course, our problem is getting police officers not to arrest both people, but making a logical determination of who the aggressor was. - For so many years the model that psychology you used to really control us was an illness model. And unfortunately, many people really felt a negative effects of that. Because in that model, the only healthy homosexual was a heterosexual one. I mean, there was no such thing as being healthy and being a gay lesbian person. - But it was sort of a step up from where we had been before, which was demon to be burned at the stake. - This is true. But now, instead of being burned at the stake, you could have your self shocked out of, with aversive approaches to try to make people be straight. In other words, the methods that still were used, you may not be burned at the stake, but there was still very aversive and coercive and really dangerous ways that people were using to try to convert us from being homosexual, to being heterosexual. - There are still psychologists and other mental health professionals who are treating homosexuality. In fact, we were talking over lunch, I just saw in the California psychologist today, an ad for a conference in Beverly Hills in May, all about reparative therapy for gay and lesbian people. These are the people that have been doing all the damage for years and years, they're still out there. - Explain more about reparative therapy. It sounds awful. - Well, the old reparative therapy was, you could give them electric shock or a medics things that would make them vomit on picture of same sex attraction, that was more old fashioned kind of approaches. Nowadays, it's looking at the, and this happened in the past too, but now the big thrust is looking at the faulty identification with parent. So I think Nicolosi talks a lot about essentially reestablishing a strong sense of masculinity and these pathetic game in getting them to bond with other men in a non-sexual kind of way. And they will then be repaired and go on to lead happy healthy heterosexual... - So that they can join the NRA or something really. - Interestingly too is that, in many of these psychological studies that these people talk about and the treatment approaches, lesbians are still talked about. - One of the most important issues that we've dealt with on the show over these years, is in that same theme of what is impacting our community and our community is dealing with it within, that's the issue of religion and spirituality. As we know the radical right has used religion to demonize us. And it's become an issue for us to meet that, with our own spirituality and also with our own denial, that this is really not what religion is about. So we did a number of shows on this issue, about our own response to these bigots, as well as our own definition of spirituality. Have you heard any of this? - Militant leader of the homosexual rights. - These Aids carriers. - Unsafe sodomy subsidies. - We are executing the homosexuals. (sighs) - I can't believe it either. - Coming up next on, "Get Used to It," we're gonna talk about these guys, their agenda, and what we can do about it. Don't go away. - When people take time to really listen to what they're saying, that they will recognize that there's nothing right about this Christian movement, I'd like to call them the crazy Christians. Because I don't believe that they have any consciousness of what Christ really was saying, who Christ was, and how we can live as Christ in the world today. It's real important, the message was love. Their message is hate, and not only is it not cool, I'm not down with it. - I think they're more of a business that uses religious language and vocabulary, and hatred based on homosexuality and other issues to make money and to try to push their agenda on the rest of the world. But I don't think there are true church, a true religion that tries to empower people to live a full life and to create justice and love in the world. - As a lesbian I didn't have to deny myself my spirituality, which is what they all want you to believe. That we have to deny our spirit, our religious feelings. And I think that's been the avenue for me to continue my work in the gay and lesbian community here for so many years, is that we can really tap into what is I think, our gay and lesbian spirit, our religious heritages, and our traditions, and not deny that. And our love of self is a reflection of our love of God. - As I stepped out of my full-time position as a pastor, and minister of a traditional church setting, to step now into the larger arena where again, lesbian men were now politically active, were now socially and religiously involved that God would show me that this too, would be a blessing for me. And I have so been blessed by coming out of the closet and being the wounded healer is the concept of that we all know from the seminary setting. And I think that nothing is more prevalent and more real than the wounded healer in terms of the gay and lesbian pastor. One who knows the journey of the experience of being within and now having to come without. Challenges us to the height of our religious training. - This is a gay church and I said, "No, this is a church for all people." And sometime we have to work so hard to make that possible. But in my ministry with the Hispanic community, I saw a lot of that. We struggle with machisma in our own culture, but I have a lot of work with Aids, visitation to the hospital or some counseling. And I witness of a lot of reconciliation between son and daughter and all family, and that was wonderful when the family come to the church, one brothers and sister come to the church, and they know they're gay. But they feel welcome. - One of the most important things any movement needs to do is to remember its history. And often we use shows like this as a kind of oral history. We invite our elders to come and speak to us and remember the way it was before anybody could be out, when it was really dangerous. But we also wanted to talk in another of our shows about pride. This notion of pride, what are we proud of? Why do we need to take pride? Where are we at the moment? Like this. On the issue of pride, we have lots of it now these days, but it wasn't always like that was it? We must have started out small, afraid? - No. It wasn't always that way. In 1969, the state of affairs for lesbian and gay people were sick, sad, sorry. There were two distinct classes of lesbian, gay people, those in trouble and those troubled. There was also a group of people having a lot of fun. It wasn't all bad. But in general, lesbian and gay people had internalized their own suffering, their own pain. If everybody you meet treats you as if you were sick, sinful, deviant, bad, abnormal, and excludable, you can exclude yourself. You can engage in your own alleged and priority and many of understood that. - For me, I know when, before catch days, and when I first came out. I would slip out of the house in the dark so that my neighbors wouldn't see me and get in the car and put on my, what I call motel socks, and my tie, you know, breakdown in the car more or less, because I didn't want anybody to see me or to know that I was gay. - In fact the definition of lesbian was that the lesbian feminist offered was that a lesbian was the rage of all women, condensed to the point of explosion. So that was a real angry definition. And I think pride involved, a lot of kind of throwing off the shackles. It's like, just coming up from slavery type of thing. - I think that there is a greater level of visible pride, that we are able to show the world, that we are a people that we have a culture we have in past, and that we are proud of that past. And we are proud of who we are, and how we've gotten here, and how long it's taken us to get here. - When I heard Morris and jewel talking earlier they were talking about the early days when the issue was really survival, and really having to fight for survival is sort of an attitude, of please leave us alone and just let us get on with our lives. And I think people more in my generation were growing up with the attitude of, we can do anything that you do, and we can be equal on your terms. And so you see lots of people who are running for office, getting elected in places that do not necessarily have a gay/lesbian constituency, or a large gay lesbian constituency, and really succeeding in all of those other institutions in elected office, as judges, as lawyers, as professors, as doctors, and you see this tremendous rise in people, gay and lesbian who are open, who are in leadership positions, in other organizations. And as Gabriel was talking, I was thinking that the shift I see now is our people or my generation was sort of growing up with this notion of equality and we're everywhere, and we're just the same as you. And I think some of the newer and younger people are saying, no, we're different from you. And we don't care what you think about us. And it's exciting to see that development and that growth the courage and the confidence of people to say, yes I wear different clothes, or i pierce my nose or whatever I do. And that's the way I want to be and leave me alone. And I'm happy the way I am. - Well, he's right, individuality. That is the hallmark of our community. But some individuals, I think really stick with us and we decided to do a series called "The Voices Of Our Lives." In which we would just do one on one interviews, frankly. It was for me. I would say, boy, I sure would like to talk to this person for an hour, and we would do a show with them. So for the rest of this show, we wanna show you some clips from those series of my heroes. And I think heroes of our movement. Kate Clinton and Amanda Bearse, we did a show called "Three Funny Lesbians." Tori Osborne, Elizabeth Birch, Phill Wilson, Urvashi Vaid and Kate, again, a wonderful piece. David Mixner and Paul Monette here are the heroes of our lives. - From my own experience. For me, it was women's music in the 70's is community building. What the right wing knows how to do is build community. What we know how to do is build community. We've done it. We've almost done it so much, 'Cause we had to cause we were exiled from our families that we don't know what incredible gift, what incredible talent it is. To have these thousands of organizations from the gay bowling leagues, to the lesbian softball leagues, to the centers, to the stitch and bitch Mormon gay Cowboys, sewing club, I kid you not, they exist. They're in salt, like that made me a quilt. I mean, this is incredible. American needs us. I don't say join the mainstream because we wanna fit in. I say, we know about having complex answers in a complex world. We reject fundamentalism. We accept, we don't just accept diversity. We don't know any other way to be, whether it was the drag queens and the leather men in the gay men's bars or the middle class lesbians, and the working class dikes in the old bars. We have always been diverse. - Straight people if they come to my show and they laugh. And I think in that moment, there's like this, oh, window of vulnerability, where they hear things they might not ordinarily hear. And I think that, so it's really, really important that we don't take ourselves too seriously either. You know? I mean, it's a serious message but, like not. I mean, I would like to live in a world where it's not a big deal that we could actually be more concerned about, where are we putting spent nuclear rods, instead of well, it's either bingo down at the nation Indian nation or it's like, I mean, I would like to talk about that. I think one of the things about coming out that is so annoying to me and wonderful is that the waste of human energy that we spend on it, that could be spent somewhere else. - Gay people, people in our community, address me as a gay person. Do you know what I'm saying? And then some are just fans of the show. Most of the time when straight people come up to me, it's just, they don't address that issue. I mean, that's really not happening a lot, but that's my hope, that's my wish, that it's all of a sudden, oh, I make them switch gear, and go wait a minute, Oh my God, she's one. Oh and I liked her. Let's see i need to not like her now. Wait, no. And if it does jar and jolt one person into going, oh, well, no big deal. Good that's what it's about no big deal. - We had meetings with Nixon, one of the nova who believes in God. And I had meetings with Kissinger who tried to convince me at night that he was a dove, even as he was conducting massive bombings during the day. And they are like men who threatened to throw us in jail with conspiracy indictments, unless we stopped protesting against a war, which scared us very much. But I also met another man during that period, named Frank. Who I fell head over heels in love with. And I trusted him more than anything in the world. And that last year was someone I could even just tell my name. That was a victory. And he knew that I was in moratorium cause of all the press. And so I didn't have to tell him that, I didn't have to lie about that. And he was a Washington bureaucrat and his apartment was just the most warming, loving, trusting place. It was filled with Yates and Naru, and Tenison, and Muller, and Beethoven, and family pictures, and incense burning, and candles. And about a month after we met Sheila, he said he had to go away for the weekend on business. And so as he got dressed in the morning and put his plane ticket in his jacket and bent down and kiss me goodbye. We agreed to meet the following Monday at the Hilton coffee shop at 16th and K street. And so I very eagerly that morning went to meet him and was greeted by two men in the blue suits. And they sat down at the table and they said, "Frank's not coming." And my first reaction given the experience of my first love with don, was that Frank had been killed in an accident of some sort. And at the same time they did that, they poured on the paper table, photographs of Frank and I engaged in sexual activity. There's no way to describe the devastation, no way. At the time that they put the photographs on the table, they flash badges. I don't know who they were, I don't know if they were official government agencies or maybe the beginning of the Gordy Lidy operations for the Nixon administration. I do know that they gave me three days to become an informant on the anti-war movement, which was out of the question. Or they would send these photographs, that were on the table to my parents and to the press. They left, It took me a while to collect myself. In fact, the clerk thought something was wrong and asked if I needed help. And I got outside and I ran to Frank's apartment. I had a key with obviously been spending a lot of time there and opened the door and there was nothing inside. There were four white walls, wooden floor, no photographs, no poetry, no music, nothing, not even a dust ball. And it was pretty clear I had been set up. - As I became more politically involved, shifted a career to turn to a nonprofit, so I wanted to be a lesbian and gay activist, but I wanted to also be a professional working for the movement. Was able to couple of those two desires, and found that as I opened and expanded my own consciousness, and there was more of receptivity with easement of separatist attitudes, a receptivity of working with gay men became more politically involved, as well as the nonprofit sector met Harvey milk. The last six months of his life. It was my intention that many lesbian and gay agencies over time had applied nationally and locally to the United way. We'd given a lot of money, we'd never been let in. He said, "I'm gonna use my position and my power to help you because I'm a supervisor now, they have to deal with me." 'Cause in three months, our clinic got in first in nation, first in the United States of America, $50,000 grant. As I look back at it now. I realize the money through donor option, United millions, and millions, and millions, and millions of dollars today sheila raised through the United way for lesbian and gay agencies, and causes and specified donor option programs. And I love the guy because I appealed to him and it was an east bay constituency. But it was lesbian and gay people and we needed help. And he was using the power of his position to apply it, to help people in need specifically the community, but all people. And I feel that with you and me as I catch up with you here, that that's one of the most satisfied and fundamental aspects of our role is to be leaders, to be role models, to use the power and the authority of our position to get things done. - And I didn't like the way society looked at or treated drag queens. I looked at Nelly gay men. Which is the essence of who I am. And I certainly didn't like not only how society, but how our own youth obsessed culture in the gay lesbian, bisexual, and transgender community, how they treated Nelly gay men. And I said, there's no dignity in neither of those paths. If I get a sex change, by the time I'm 35 or 40, I'll be acclimated to my role and society will leave me alone to be as Nelly as I want. this castration compromise, has been going on in Western culture far longer than we realized. Christine Jordans wasn't the first, the hiss of India had been castrating themselves for 400 years in order to be just that. Not man, not woman, Nelly. - My appeal, if there's one like propaganda pitch that I can make using this show, which goes out to so many people around the country is that we have to get more involved in our movement. It is not one. The battle is far from one. It is finally being waged in a very serious and intense way. And this is a life and death battle, for each and every one of us. And for us to be complacent and say, well, they're doing it in Washington or somebody's taking care of this is simply wrong. Every single person has a role to play gay or straight. - And I don't think that people really know how much joy there is in it. I mean, isn't it, it's not only just fun, but joyful. - And then you think, well, that was wonderful, but then you take the next step and it just keeps going. And it really It's probably addictive. There'll probably be groups about it, but oh, I hope not. - But I it'll take that fun away from us too, But it really is. If I may say empowering, it's just a kick. - And we met each other in the movement. Yes. It's so called war. You can find a relationship in the movement. - At the war conference? - Yeah. You can meet babes. - When you are watching war. - Go there and meet babes. - Lesbian chicks. It's been a longstanding joke about lesbians and sex. That is the sort of the absence of interest in it or how it dies after a while the sort of theory in our community, et cetera. But I know that in your own way and the way you talk in your work and the way certainly the way you've always talked in terms of sort of the political importance of us and the kind of revolutionary ideas we can bring to America. How, does this also integrate as a notion in your work? And I don't know what else to ask, i certain want to ask terribly personal questions, but. - well, I mean, I do think that that sex and sexuality is a very integral part of who we are as lesbians and gay men. And, it's a part of our relationship, just as it's the part of any successful relationship. And I think we do have to talk about it because the right talks about it in a very negative and pejorative way. And in some ways I think that we are just like heterosexuals in that sense that if it's not working in the relationship, the relationship is not gonna work. On another level, i think that gay sexuality is very threatening to so many people. And why is that? Why is the sight of two women kissing, or two men kissing still evoke ears in movie theaters all over this country? Every time you see that image, people are freaked out about it. I think part of it is that people aren't just familiar and part of it is the ERO phobia of this society, whereas sex hating culture. And that's an ironic thing to say when we're fed sex and advertising and this horrible vicious, inhumane sexuality that is put out on commercial television. - Well, it's the deformation of sex in a sense, it's all the kind of sex we're sold is deformed. And then of course, to make it seem legitimate, they have to characterize us as deformed sex or unnatural or whatever. But we can't just say, it's just like the other stuff we were talking about. We can't just say, oh no, we're just the same as you, except we make love to people of the same sex. 'Cause that's not really true, is it? We're not really just the same as straight people. I think we have a greater sense of pleasure and we are about the freeing up of heroes and pleasure the pleasure principle in the world. And we have a great deal of joy about sexuality that I think heterosexual America could really benefit from. - And was a recovering Catholic. Where, I mean, I say that the two lines in my family where sex is dirty, save it for someone you love. - I think that people, this is gonna be weird. I think people try to be right too much. I think it's important to be right. But I don't know if you have a mechanism to know that. I know, I don't have a mechanism to know that. So I invest, I shouldn't say a little, but maybe it's a little, but I guess I don't focus on being right. Yeah. Cause I don't know how to answer that question. I can't sleep if that's the test that I was right. And so that's why the integrity becomes important. And the other thing that happens, is if you focus on being right, I suspect you have to spend a lot of time making other people wrong. And I've never found that to be useful. - Phill you've talked a little bit about organizing around aids and that was a big part of course Chris's life too. And I wanna talk to you, if you will, a little bit about that because you were diagnosed a number of years ago, I remember. - I found out that I was positive, a few weeks before Chris was actually diagnosed with football aids. And I thought at the time I remember thinking, I'm black and I think that that's okay. I don't have any issues with that. I'm gay, and I think that's okay. And now I have HIV. Now, what? What does that mean? And I guess in the beginning, like I said, this was a few weeks before we knew that Chris had full blown aids. I thought I have a lot I want do, and I don't know if I'm gonna be able to do it. And I suspect that that drives me today, that there is a lot that I want to do. And I don't know if I have much time. And I guess I probably think that I don't have much time to do it. As a result of that. I'm in a hurry. I want the isms to go away today. I don't have time to ask for permission to live. I've learned that there's a part that I have to play. And my responsibility is to play that part as forcefully as I can, and with as much integrity as I can, and with as much honesty as I can. And at the end of the day, to be satisfied with that. - And my one lesson is that there are gay people everywhere and generationally everywhere. If I could tell one very quick story. One time we were in a little town called Brichner Italy, and I was with a family and I had a host sister. That's what we would call them named Gabriela. And I was flipping through a photo album of this family with Gabriela. And I spotted these old photographs from the 20's of these two women that were rough housing with each other. And I said, Gabriela, who are these women? And she said sort of in broken Italian, "Oh, that's my clunky old aunt. She lives up the road." And Gabrielle was totally hip and loved to live in the disco. She was like a quintessential heterosexual teenager. And so we kept flipping and I saw again, these women together, and I just said, well, did your aunt ever get married? And she said, oh yeah, she got married. And I said, oh. And she said, but it was during the war. And it was for less than a year. And she really never saw her husband after he went off to war they broke up. And I said, oh, and I said, where's this other woman? And she says, well, he lives with my aunt up the road. So I arranged for my lover at the time and me to go and meet these two women. And I was so excited and Gabriela who had hoped for a very hip, other teenager to go spend time with was going, "Why does she wanna go see my aunt?" And to make long story story short, we made our way up this old apartment building in Italy, and up to the door. And this aunt and her friend had no idea why this kid from Canada wanted to meet them. And as soon as the door opened, I stood there with my lover and they looked down on these two kids and they just teared up and they understood exactly why there was this drive to meet the two of them. And we spent the whole evening together, and Gabriela was going, why are you all crying? You know it made no sense. - Well, I think that's the thing about the joy, that no one ever tells you about when you come out, when you meet other people, when you finally have this sense of feeling like you've come home. if you were to say to me, sort of what you would like, all these people who are eavesdropping out there to know or to think about it. - Well, something that I have believed very strongly over the last several years is that I would rather be remembered for loving well, than writing well. The books will take care of themselves. I hope that they will help people, but I know 'cause I've seen it in so many faces that when people come to the end, what matters to them is how much they've loved. Nobody on his death bed. It's a statement in Hollywood, nobody on his death bed ever wanted to read one more screenplay. And maybe not even wanted to write one more poem. But instead wanted to reflect on or have the love of that he'd been able to achieve in life. So, Oden has a line in September 1st 1939, facing that war in which he says, we must love one another or die. And we all know of course that we must love one another and die, but the way we will be seen and the way we will give back and give forward, and speak to the children of the next generation and the next, and the next, has to do with, they must try to understand that, for all these political fights we fight for little bits of ground. We don't have to fight for that ground, love. - Paul Monette, thanks. - Thank you. Nice to be here, Sheila. Get that kiss on camera. - Yeah. (both laughs) - Well, there you have it. A kind of a sampler from our first 50 shows, there was a lot more lot of smart talk, a lot of wonderful people, a lot of exposure on the issues that affect our lesbian and gay community. We hope that you enjoyed this sampler. I hope that you'll stick around for the next 50 shows or more. If you know of any city, that's not running this show and you think they should, give us a call here in west Hollywood, because we think it's really important to get this talk and these issues out, because our community's here to stay, and better "Get Used To It." (upbeat music)