Get Used to It: Ep. 24, "3 Funny Lesbians"

uh [Applause] [Music] hi i'm sheila kuhl and this is get used to it welcome to our show i don't know what i'm going to call the show and as we go through it you'll understand i think we'll title this show three funny dikes although we'll see won't we occasionally we have in this wonderful series shows where we simply don't know why we're asking these people on the show we just think they're wonderful unusual interesting funny intelligent people and we'll see what the show turns out to be so it's my great pleasure to introduce you to my two guests today my first guest is amanda burst amanda burst who plays marcy darcy on married with children and that ain't all she does as you'll hear but um i guess the longest running show on a network that decides whether it's going to be a network or not a network from week to week exactly yeah longest running half hour oh yes well and there must be an award in that somewhere and uh my other guest kate clinton who is in the middle of a whirlwind national tour with her uh latest show impure thoughts it's an hour and a half it's an hour and a half so amanda shows a half hour kate says but is it the longest running hour and a half it was less network calls itself a network when it wants to be surprised this show is going to be an hour but it's going to go by like so welcome i'm so glad you're both here at the same time in the same town it helps to do a show that way it does although we have done shows where we do remote and you know film people sheila listen let me let me ask you a question just to sort of start this i have and i just like to say that that picture of you it's you i mean perfect that was before my my latest haircut do you like that but that is definitely i said you know i didn't know this i didn't know i got all my hair covered no i'm serious when i started running for office well you know i usually wear earrings you know with lions on them or whatever goddess figures and when i started running for office my consultant said no no something professional looking you know and you're gonna go to a law firm you'll be picking babies up it's a bent what it's a bent i don't know what it is i think it's a bow so you know it's but it's uh it's professional yes anyway here's what here's what my first what's that shallow enough questions about theoretically here we are it's like virginia graham's show okay remember our three um three people who have come out at various times in our careers three people who at one time or another have been are currently you currently me have been um entertainers television uh other kinds of sort of you know public work uh kate let me ask you first what what did it make a difference in your life i mean i know the answer is yes so the next part is how did it make a difference in your life coming out how did you first come out and how did it impact the work that you were doing or the work that you started to do when you when you started doing stand up well i came out when i was teaching high school english and actually was having such a great time that i couldn't go back to teaching and having such a great time having come out having come out i mean i was having such a great time i didn't really have a chance to correct all those papers at night if you know what i'm saying so and i would come to school with a big smile on my face every day and um and they were worried you cannot enjoy it not before december and uh so uh and then i had been bugging my friends i said i really want to try stand-up comedy and they said well and actually a friend of mine went and booked a club and said you're on we're sick of hearing about this and when you do comedy you talk about what you're interested in and i was coming out and it was fascinating to me so that's what i started to talk about i probably not the best career move in 1981 ed sullivan didn't call oh no he didn't uh but you know it for me it was the most truthful thing it's what i was it was what i was interested in and although i think people would like you to think that there is no community there was a lot to talk about you know it wasn't like i could you know go about 10 minutes on it and that was kind of it for what i could talk about about lesbian lore lesbian myth or make it i mean there was a lot going on and that's what i talked about well your work has always been political too not that i mean it feels to me like everything we do is political just having come out is is political but in your particular career you didn't you didn't do stand-up until you did work about being lesbian right right i i it they happened about the same time and i think we should be happy that i wasn't like going to accounting school because i would be doing after dinner things right now you know for aetna or something i don't know but i mean it was what i was doing so that's what and uh my friend who had been in women's music for years in a band she said i'll book you and i'll book you for the summer and she did it for five years and she booked me in that circuit so that's what i talked about you know the the festival the coffee house circuit which was so that was a really separate circuit at that time and really in a way still is isn't it no i think there's a lot more blending i mean i i think that actually the the mainstream is overflowing its banks and picking up a lot of the uh the low-lying things but you know the great thing for me was when i started because my person who managed me what and just act like you're interested i'm listening right okay that's good but we won't get into hair care products now because this is a good show because this is not a channel it's not that shallow actually even though we started out that way you're one of the first people talking about being queer out there well that's there weren't a lot of women out there doing it well not really talking about it but making people understand it because i mean you always have been the funniest person in the universe not just in this genre i mean truly don't you think i used to get a galactic thing happening but uh okay it's all right sheila i know there are other people you like now um but uh but the thing for me was that when i started the person who was booking me had been in music i said to her how long should the show be she said well 45 minutes then we'll take a break and then you'll do 45 more minutes and i did that year in and year out 90 minutes maybe every year that was different and that you know it was like there was so much to talk about you know there was there were you know softball things and in i started to do more uh political stuff just because my world expanded you know kate didn't you want didn't you ever want to do more mainstream not material but shows i mean it seemed to me there was such a great divide and to and i'm i may be disagreeing with you here which is okay i know but i can just really still a great divide you don't have you know a weekly tv show in which you reach 50 million right you don't your material is is very special you know you go on on arsenio and people are holding on to see what horrible things gonna happen and you know there's been a lot of very way out there people on the talk shows but it's very different for us don't you think well i think it's because i say things you know i mean i think that it's not like i'm disguising pronouns or you know doing things and i think that is probably sort of dangerous but you know i i'm not disappointed i've been able to explore my material you know i've been able to make a body of material about gay and lesbian culture i'm really i'm very happy with that i i like it that i haven't been made to make compromises you know and i think that if there comes a time and there will come a time because of the work that we're all doing that there will be an outspoken lesbian who can talk about being a lesbian you know and talk about politics it'll happen it might not be me but uh or it'll be the oldest lesbian and i'll be the lesbian curmudgeon which i'd why yeah and i'll be jack i'm [Laughter] but amanda yes i guess the thing here is it's different for you a little a little bit different yeah um so same question to you well i didn't teach high school no that's true um that's the biggest well it's very different um you know and it's all about making choices and i made a choice when i was studying acting in new york that i wanted to make a living and make some money and i i opted to go a commercial route in terms of my career and fortunately somebody opted back you know who gave me a job and i got a job fairly quickly out of school and that was all my children and you know i was sort of on my way in a way it stops and starts and you know stops and starts again and ended up on marry with children which you know for the last eight years has been my bread and butter but in terms of making choices that i knew it was inevitable you know i was queer then that wasn't going to go away and it was just a matter of when that was going to happen and sort of how i knew that if i reached a certain level of celebrity that it would make a difference it would make a difference in my life and in other people's lives and it was just sort of i really wasn't planning it i didn't know when it was going to happen and i think it was because of the success of mary with children a lot of that afforded me that safety and also that when you're able to win in show business a little bit and by that i mean when you're able to win the job whether it's a day job or a week's gig or whatever and you know what that feels like and then you go oh oh that's what that is okay that's good and um and then you can move on to something else you're not when you're never when you never get the brass ring and it's always that what if what if that's very frustrating but i've been very fortunate that i've been able to win a lot and certainly with the success of mary with children i mean that's afforded me a lot of security so has it made a difference in your work let's just say your work environment at the moment the people on the set that did they know that were they surprised that you were a big old lesbian no no i mean and you know that in life i and and i'm sure your viewers do too no matter what you do for a living everybody there always comes a time where it's speculated about who is she sleeping with she's not bringing around she's not bringing around this you know it just becomes it's like social chatter in any office situation and it is on the set too i happen to know i i knew katie seagal who's one of the stars on my show before i got the the job so she knew i was gay and then i think if anybody if within a week or two if anybody in terms of the cast and so forth where you're really sort of finding your way with each other you married you dating had any questions she confirmed it you know that's right and then it was just in terms of um it wasn't that i was in a relationship that i really felt comfortable about sharing it wasn't about sharing my my gayness or it was you get to know me first and and then that becomes a part of it and i think it had a lot to do with the relationships i was in at the time and when i was in a significant relationship that i wanted to share with the people that i work with and it was actually incidental that it was a gayer relationship you know if i'd been dating men um it would have been the same thing it's not necessarily it had to do more with that person and wanting to bring them in you don't bring well i mean it's it's very much like a family and you don't bring that person home until it's really serious and it's the same way especially in a series i mean they're these are very much like um family because you see them every day and you're you know it's very sort of bohemian in a way and it's also i mean i'm a private person it's ironic because i'm this big old out lesbian now that big old that you can't be a little out lesbian but you know that i'm really a very private person in my my family life and my home life is just that and i like the separation of church and state you know i do but you know you can't be a private pro i mean in the first place it's hard to be a private person when you're an entertainer no i mean everybody wants to know they want to print about it and you can say no i won't do that interview or no i won't talk about it but that is not a choice either one of you actually but what would they say what shocking thing would they say about me we think we saw her kissing a guy i mean it would be like well she's been dating bob it would be shocking but i mean it's a question about not being secret or lying i think what amanda's talking about is privacy that is okay everybody knows i'm in a relationship with a woman but i don't want to talk to people magazine about it right or i do choose to talk to people magazine which is really and that and that is a choice that that's where that happens now for me that timing was sort of taken away um because of the the invasion of the tabloids you know in my life and i and i eventually wanted to answer back because they bastardize everything they screw everything up it's just the trash is you can't even call it journalism it's just trash my first girlfriend uh was a head of research at the national enquirer it was a short job a very small job what good did that do but but i guess what i what i want to ask well kate let me ask you first there people in america now watch us i don't mean just this show but they watch us you know you've been out forever and you are now on you know television you write people know about you you're a lesbian entertainer and the same with you now amanda and really the same with me i mean i we're out and the question i guess is what what impact do you think that has on the other side of the of the tv set or the other side of reading on sort of i guess what you would call the people of america now they know us do you think that that's i mean we've all said it's important to come out why is that an important thing i can only go to my first experience of going and hearing muriel rukaiser read poetry and there was something about what she said there was something that said to me it was in the power of the language that said to me don't be afraid you know come out i mean that wasn't what she was saying in the poems but there was something that gave me the strength to do it and i only think that when i speak that somewhere it's giving someone the strength to do the next thing that they have to do you know and so i mean and it's not foreign for me i mean it's not something that i'm taking on it's just it's be to be the truest you can be about yourself and it inspires truth in the other person in the culture that is saying don't ask don't tell i mean i think it's really important to ask and tell so that's one aspect of america that we talk to i mean there must be a million quadrillion gay or lesbian people especially young people who feel very ashamed and don't know how to talk about this and actually never met anybody like them and think they may be the only one so in in your work you you give permission in a way for someone to be honest to be out and and to be funny which is not something that uh lesbians actually have been thought to be and we were hysterical we were hysterical most of the time i think people felt left out and they said they don't have a sense of humor they just felt they didn't get it they didn't they just didn't they were in the kitchen and uh they felt bad but you know i think the other thing is to be able to laugh about it i mean i think people being straight people if they can they come to my show and they laugh and i think in that moment there's like this window of vulnerability where they they hear things they might not ordinarily hear and i think that so it's really really important that you know we don't take ourselves too seriously either you know i mean it's a serious message but lighten up you know i mean i would like to live in a world where it's not a big deal that we could actually be more concerned about you know where we putting spent nuclear rods instead of you know like well it's either bingo down at the nation indian nation or you know it's like i mean i would i would like to talk about that i think one of the things about coming out that you know is so annoying to me and wonderful is that the waste of human energy that we spend on it that could be spent somewhere else worrying about it in advance you know i've i've sort of compared it to that there was an old shell oil commercial where you saw a car hurtling toward a brick wall and one and you think any minute it's going to impact and it drives right through and it's just a piece of paper that looks like a brick wall and coming out is sort of like that but the apprehension that you feel before you do it how is it going to impact i mean you you had to wonder i would sure and i used to put a lot more energy into it and it's ironic that so it's sort of that thing as soon as you stop thinking about it it happens you know what i mean and i talked about this in in in sort of the big coming out interview that i did with the advocate which is it happened on the anniversary i got that phone call you know that that infamous that that call from rep representation saying you know it's gonna be a national you know some trashy publication and um and it was on the anniversary of my brother's death and you know sometimes that impacts your life you know these anniversaries can and it's like sometimes they blow by this happened to be one that i was having some awareness of and and was thoughtful about and when that phone call came it was like oh who cares you know it because in the grand scheme of things it just really didn't have any weight it just and i think that was a gift i don't think that was an accident and um yeah i did used to focus a lot more attention on it because there's that angst and that anxiety about being a young actor and you're struggling and you're trying you know it's that will they like me am i am i right am i this and then with maturity and and growth and winning you know getting a job and having that having that security which is you know a real blessing in in hollywood it's like i don't i don't have to worry about this so much but you had to trust that it wasn't going to be the end of it too i mean in a way you know i had to know that it had it did not matter i didn't know sheila you know i didn't but i think that there were the car that was going toward the brick wall there had been crash test dummies ahead of us you know there were people that went through i mean we weren't coming full blown out of some you know the national enquirer that we had seen people ahead of us right you know not many you know but they had made had some success but they're all not though we know there are a lot of people working in the industry who aren't out why aren't they out they're frightened why are they frightened because there are punishments i mean you yes it is a risk and it's a courageous thing to do but it also has an impact and i guess that's what was part of my question to kate and now to you what impact do you think it has on the the folks beyond the people you know i mean america knows amanda right and they know you they know marcy they know marcy and how do you think they put that together [Laughter] i think it goes to i mean in terms of the way things were for us and the way things are now uh you said something about it you don't feel quite so alone i mean that's that's one of the the give backs and because i really did i grew up in a small town and um even though i grew up in the theater which was sort of a safe place and there were gay men gay women were harder to identify you know so i mean i didn't find another gay woman until i was sleeping with her do you know what i mean and then i knew um she wasn't tired anymore but i you know i think that's what that's that's one of the things that my presence in being out as a lesbian and being on a national um television program that they can tune in daily and say oh she's one she's you know there's one i can point to one right there and um you know maybe not right in the context of that show because marcie's so very very straight but you know as the actress that plays that character and um i think that's important because i didn't have that right i mean i've talked about that you have the vibes you get the vibes like i totally got the vibes from indora and you know we're not gonna to go retro and out people who are you know might not like that but you know you get these you know when i was growing up and watching it's like there was something about her that was just so cool and then you know you you you realize are you you hear the the the the speculation it's like oh that's it well i'm just thinking about the 500 people who said to me oh we knew you know we knew but the other thing though is not just the people in our community and who who will be in our community who see us and go oh thank god i'm not the only one but straight people as well i mean i think one of the things that i experienced when i ran for office is that the character that i had played was a character that everybody loved and now i'm out as a lesbian and i'm running for office and it's sort of like i look from one to the other i could almost see it happening and it jams the homophobic radar to some extent because they like this girl good you know and they like marcy i mean she's funny they like her and i think that to some extent they go oh well maybe i can't hate this person right off the bat i hope so do you find that i mean you go out in public and people talk to you don't you find that too uh most of the people that talk to me though don't the gay people people in our community address me as a gay person do you know what i'm saying and then some are just fans of the show most of the time when people stray people come up to me it's just they don't address that issue i mean that's that's really not happening a lot but that's that's my hope that's my wish that it's all of a sudden oh you know i make them switch gears and go wait a minute oh my god she's one oh and i liked her uh let's see i i i need to not like her now wait you know and and if it j you know if it does jar and jolt one person into going oh well no big deal good you know that's that's what it's about no big deal well it it is although sometimes it's a plus i mean and you won't know yet but when i was running for the assembly i got one of my constituents came up to me in a restaurant and said you know i hate all politicians they all lie they disassemble they're they're just liars i hate them all except for you and i said me why me and he said well you already told us the worst thing about yourself wow wonderful what would you lie about and in a funny way i mean it's like a very inexpensive way to be thought of as courageous you know and honest i mean you said don't use the word pioneer when you introduce me because it makes me sound like i came to california wagon right okay you're not that old but in a way kate you have broken that ground i mean there's other ground in the second half of this show i want to talk about all the political work you do because you're not really making fun of our community as much as you're making fun of a lot of other people who hate our community but you broke a lot of ground early on in terms of making the whole subject matter safer i mean you always had big audiences didn't you yeah i had i mean they grew it was it was work but i think that it was you know ignorance is bliss again i mean i don't know if it was that courageous it was what i was really interested in thinking about i was very involved in you know uh feminist book clubs and we were you know talking about a lot of ideas and then the more that i work the more political i got because people just got you know said now you need to think about this now you need to think about this i mean i it's just a growing process i i think if i'd known what i had said how to you know if i could look back you know what i mean the time thing is just i've lost it but um if i could have no i don't know but you know i probably would have been too scared but it was just a little step i mean a lot of times i think you think these are going to be grand moves but it's just the process of moving along and the accretion of you know i did this i did this did you get bad feedback i didn't really ever get bad feedback um i never but i never played um it was a rule that i had early on never play in places that have mechanical bulls and that that was a that that was a good thing it's a good show it was a good thing but i mean i you know is this that my audiences contrary to what people thought would happen have grown they haven't like oh that's such a limiting thing to say that you're a lesbian or to say that you're a feminist but i always thought it was a very inclusive concept and in fact that's what's happened the audiences have gotten bigger but in the early days yeah when you were first doing this um were you scared ever i mean you would go i mean you were traveling a lot yeah you were you were appearing at i was college yeah i've got death threats and bomb scares and i'd had police escorts and but um i don't know i don't know if i'm so like unattuned to myself but i just thought i remember one time looking over and uh the the dekes were outside which i thought was hysterical because here we were the dykes the digs you know they were upset that i was there and there were i had two burly policemen i big old irish guys who were like we'll take carrie adele and you know and and i didn't you know i didn't again i didn't really think of it as much as well it figures you know and this is what it'll take and you know on we go well it's um it's funny because art is really different from politics i mean i'm certainly discovering that more and more and you said something the other day that i think i i want to explore about art entertainment essentially the business in which you guys are engaged being essentially optimistic whereas politics at least as we're seeing it now looks kind of uh not so optimistic tell me about the first part here you are you're getting death threats i want to know if any of this has happened to you too amanda any negative stuff since you've come out still how do you see what you do as so optimistic well i think it's art is is a based on a very optimistic belief about people that um susan b anthony and i always mix them up or elizabeth katie stanton the little round one i liked her a lot when she was asked what will women be when they're free she said they'll be the best they can be you know and i think that feminism art has a basic optimistic belief that people will be the best they can be i don't think that politics does i think politics believes that people are going to screw up they're human and it's not an optimistic belief about people that if you open the system up i mean i think art is just about opening things up politics especially fundamental politics are is about closing the system down so eventually there's only one answer and let me let me interrupt you here because we have to take a break a little tiny one and then we'll come back don't go away because there's lots more of this better and better and better see you in a minute [Music] here's one time it doesn't matter who your neighbor is [Music] here's the other [Applause] life's too short stop the hate hi welcome back to get used to it i'm sheila cuell and today as i hope you already know my wonderful guests are amanda burst and kate clinton kate is gargling because she's been using her voice and needs to protect it because there's a show tonight right yes yes got a question okay before we left for this break which was fun wasn't it uh we were talking about politics of all things and art and art and somewhere in between that is what i do why is that well because i really wouldn't call i wouldn't really call married with children an art form you know there's a craft certainly a craft and there there is some artistry and involved and however the the entertainment industry is quite a political yeah and it's not politics the way we normally define it either but so let's let me know it's cut as we said yeah that that one is expansive and the other is very limiting i think there is a somewhere in there is is what i do well there's a critique though i mean i don't want to make too much of married with children but there's always a reason when someone has a concept for a show they have a thought behind it i i would assume and married with children is a critique in and of itself i mean it's it's a farce it's a critique of family as usual um it's a critique of father knows best well i'm not trying to diminish it i'm just saying i i because um there are restrictions and guidelines and you know you have to follow formula and pattern and so forth there's a lot of craft in making that art form work i mean basically we're we're trying to make people laugh yet possibly provoke thought at the same time but i think for our show which is like a live action cartoon you know we're trying to make people laugh um i think what kate does is a little more thought-provoking well it does begin with the written word and there is thought and concept and behind that and and there is artistry in that and in creating the picture the visual or uh and the dynamic for bringing those characters to life but that kind of stuff was always i think considered art it was before we had film it was theater and there even shakespeare wrote comedies of course the comedies were about regular people and tragedies were about the royalty i mean the same was the greeks the tragedies were about the gods and the comedies were just about fools like us and way be maybe what you do is sort of the fools like us kind of stuff but you take off way beyond that kate on to politics i mean a big part of the work that you're doing now is really about completely making fun of all the things that everybody else is taking very seriously um isn't it it's not really a leap but it's different from the way you started out definitely doing material well when i as i said when i started out i was coming out so that was the material and it was mostly lesbian arcana i mean when i said michigan people knew i meant festival not the state you know but as i've as the audiences have increased in size and the kind of people who come i became more as a lesbian in the world and that i could comment on the world i mean it's been i came out of a very separatist background too and and the world thank goodness has opened up for me so i i feel like i can comment on the world and it's um a very incredible time to be a comedian you know politicians oh it's wonderful but i tell you i would i would stretch and do doggy and kitty jokes not to have the people who are in office right now to joke about i mean you know i would do peanuts on the airplane jokes for a long time if we didn't have new new nudie newt ging really rich i would ask you for a couple of minutes of of what you're saying about these guys now but you want people to come down and pay for it i love that about you but i want people to come down and pay for it that's just what i was going to say thanks tell me about a bill you're working on i mean what's going on here yeah well but see i don't get paid as much for that so oh excuse me still a lot of laughs though yeah right that's true it is funny um but the connection between what i've called art which is which i include all forms of entertainment in and politics it seems to me is uh it's not only what you said about optimism and pessimism but the fact that for instance making us invisible in every art form that or every popular art form in the united states has got to have some political purpose it affects what people see in entertainment but the effect of it is very you know is political so we become sort of counter i think to this you know this incredible repression the whole thing about the uh national endowment for the arts and about pbs very much about us we're the you know we're the wedge issue oops too many queers on television you know have to defund the entire pbs uh it's so cheap it's so cheap it's just it's like you know we are the best fundraisers for the for the fundamentalists i mean we should hire out i guess we do you know i'm just worried about the nea thing and the you know the money for pbs because i just don't want longer auctions do you for those longer fund raises i just ring i mean but what about barney if we got right i love barney all right child loves barney let me clarify that i do child loves barney i love barney because my child is barney okay well then barney can stay then i guess that makes her smile thanks okay good appreciate that so what do we do i mean what i've seen both of you do in addition to the work that you do sort of i guess that's paid work is take a lot of responsibilities new responsibilities really in the community itself i mean the community is trying to organize itself trying to raise money for itself is trying to celebrate itself is trying to come out essentially as a community what do you think the role of the artist or entertainer is in in the community or the responsibility that you might have well we we have a higher visibility i mean that's what we lend and and if i think they're we have to raise money that's that's the the biggest of which you just listed and and and that's what we get dragged out for i mean i i i'm less about the celebrating ourselves because we live our lives that way i mean that that's what that's what i hope to do just getting out of bed every morning um but in terms of trying to get money uh to to battle the the fundamentalists or to um help politicians get elected that we believe in and and that will support us and um that's that's what we can give is our visibility if it brings people in if it makes them buy a ticket because i show up there great there comes a point in time and it did with me i mean because i didn't really anticipate this political wave that i was going to ride after coming out and um and it was quite overwhelming and then i have learned to say no i've had to because my my my family is so important to me and my life i need that balance i work very hard but i also um i need to rest and and and and have that down time and you just can't do it because there aren't a lot of us out there and you do get spread very thin and you have to say you have to say no more often than i would like to so you pick and choose carefully the ones that are and and you know unfortunately it's the high ticket events because i mean let's let's get the biggest bang for our buck kind of a thing and and that's what we've got to do so kate why don't you ever say no to anything [Laughter] yay [Laughter] now i didn't mean no to everything but i you know it's every time i get an invitation it's that wonderful kate clinton is the emcee we can't get enough of her well that's true i think that's true i mean i think there's a lot more things to do too you know that's the great news but there are things that i i love to go to i mean there's the national gay and lesbian task force creating change conference which is amazing it's an amazing event and it's important for me to be there to get political ideas to you know to get that from i wouldn't miss the lambda literary awards because i get to hang out with writers i mean and meet people i met paul monette there you know i sat across the table from him in winston and and that was you know the beginning of a really important relationship in my life and i go to the outright conference because i need when i think the outright conference happened and we had just invaded the persian gulf for some unknown reason oil and a beginning of a presidential election campaign actually the first presidential election campaign that was kicked off with a war i believe but um you know and it's a way to raise money sure but you know i needed to be at that conference to be around people who fuel me and if i'm going to be there then they go well would you talk at that and i kind of go sure but you know if it brings people great well and i think it does i mean so i think there's certainly i never did hands across america you didn't i did you did oh it was great but i just did it like the regular people i did like what is now my district me too perhaps we helped well we did too bad the tabloids weren't there to get that shot yeah it is but so there's sort of two different ways at least in which in which we kind of participate in the community i mean i think that often we participate kind of substantively we show up for the subject matter we're talking about you know homophobia in the industry we're on panels or whatever but the other way is i it always seemed to me that one of the major responsibilities of celebrities is you got to show up because it's important to people that you're going to be there they come to see you they come to see that you're really there i mean the uh you know the women's night celebration which is just growing and growing and growing to raise money for women's programs at the center here in l.a is growing and growing and growing partly because people show up to see i mean you got an award last year people showed up to see that and it brings people there to give their money but do you think i mean i don't see a lot of celebrities doing that just generally do you think that's part of should be part of the responsibility part of the way you pay back in a way i think it's a give back but no not everybody embraces that philosophy some people really have the attitude that they're very deserving you know they do and i've worked with some of them and it astounds me that's what that's a great idea and and it's unfortunate but that's not a part of who i am and i mean we all have i think a a common belief system here that we have been given to and it is important to give back and and we have a purpose and we talked about this a little bit before the show that you know i had a certain level of celebrity with marrying with children and the exposure that it brought me and it it pretty much hit a ceiling i mean i was supporting character on a kind of a long running but show not an honored show you know not an award-winning show it just is the show that will not die over on that fox network thank god but you marry that celebrity with that what happened with me politically you know by the choice that i made that wasn't my motivation but i certainly can't deny the impact that it had and it it hoisted my celebrity up and and that has value somewhere and it believe me it's not the ego issue it has value if it can bring those dollars in to organizations like the center or hrcf or in gltf or you know um i'm so proud of you i mean i really am i know a lot of people who have come out who i've never seen them again i just think it's fabulous what you do and that you lend your name like that i i'm not going to give you an award but i just didn't feel like you didn't get a drink again yeah but you're on the board of the center i mean it's it's not only about problems okay that's like a big thing all right i have to qualify that i moved off after one year and that was i gave my year i made my contribution and then i i needed the time i i took that time back for myself to be with my child to tell you the truth but um and but like i said i pick and choose carefully i i want to participate i want to continue to do that because we've got miles to go well there's another aspect i think to what to what we do and that really sort of relates to this show i mean kate you've been doing uh have done in the life right a show that people see all around the country about gay and lesbian stuff i do this show amanda you're about to start a show we're just developing a show it's very exciting it's a show um we're calling it freestyles and it's sort of like a lifestyles magazine show for the gay and lesbian community and it it was born out of um do you know grant looking bill who's done he's got a book coming out this summer about the value of the gay dollar and all the the the attention that it's gotten over the last few years of advertisers that you know this is a very viable market demographic to hit and it's really never been targeted in a way in terms of national broadcast and uh through a company down in florida called wtdt which is a demographic um sort of syndicator uh we're building this show for our community and it's very exciting at first i thought well hey i don't want to be robin leach when i grew up this isn't what i wanted to do champagne wishes and pavial greed i can see you doing it shame i come to my house i'll get a spiral scare and here's a spiral scarecast no that was my first time they bring it's terrible really you won't like it no but i thought it would have that voyeuristic well it would be a red roof inn in my case i've been traveling a lot oh yeah but when we put the gay and lesbian um words to anything it becomes a political issue and this becomes a political show but that's what made it interesting to me all of a sudden it had value and if it could be done with integrity then okay i'll i'll get up there and and say those words but it will it will have that that nice just fluff travel entertainment stuff but it will also have community and political issues and health issues and things that that the gay community is really uh looking for well it's never been given and it sounds like a way to claim our aesthetic which quickly gets you know taken over by the mainstream and you would you would think that they knew how to design things but um do you know what i'm saying yes so we can bring them through the heart i feel like well if we can if we can win with the um the gay audience which is quite a discerning audience then then we'll have that crossover well but it also takes us national in a way that is is kind of been difficult we have national organizations we have uh you know we get to be on national talk shows but there are other people's talk shows in essence and we're if we're not freaks we're grateful forever you know that they oh guess what it was wonderful they didn't make me a freak but when we have shows of our own um like in the life or you know i mean i'm very proud of this show too do you think it has an impact on people beyond our community it's hard to tell us what absolutely i think that in the privacy of people's homes when they are having a private moment with their television set they look at things they wouldn't allow themselves to look at in the company of other people it's very i mean i i it's completely beside the point to say that television is very insidious but it works to our advantage as well you know i mean i know the people watched me on arsenio and maybe watched me in a way that they would never come to a show because they would be too frightened or something right but you know there is a way that it gets into you well this an anonymity that people have in watching uh i think that the the reason why people are drawn to the internet i mean it's it's very anonymous and it's interactive which of course television is not yet but the other thing about cable too which has been i think i think so democratizing to television i mean when there were networks i mean when fox started its own network everyone went berserk and said there can't be another network and there's only three networks it's never been done right it's never been done what do they think they're doing now paramount's got one and you know i'm pretty sure i'm going to have one good cool yes i think so too fkn but cable has been very different cable is because you can surf those channels those 76 or whatever they are and don't you always stop at people doing or saying interesting things or else old humphrey bogart movies or you know something like i do a lot of giraffe things do you stuff look at giraffes i do and a country what newt gingrich said which is what guys like at desks sometimes they just want to go up and go after a giraffe he actually said that when he the day that he said that women can't be in the service because after 30 days in a ditch they get an infection ah guys would too i would think but it may not be the same no but i mean half of everything they base their belief system on is the difference between guys and gals right never mind if it's all true because that's just a very important distinction to me but what do you mean giraffe's case i didn't know what he meant it was like they were the hunter-gatherer things guys couldn't sit at desk and do desk work for very long time go up and go and he said and i quote go and go after a giraffe this was i was teaching the class yes so scary it is scary and we're paying for that but hey but he's not mumbling but you digress anymore okay sorry and it's okay to digress but my job is to sort of and you're very good kind of thing it was it's really about getting this information out and i guess the the bottom line question is because as you said there are a number of people who've come out and then we never hear from them again you know why do you keep doing this why do you keep doing this why do you keep doing community work and coming to community banquets and saying yes to these things and being on the air and and saying okay i will well it's not my line but somebody said you know now that there's no more communism the religious right is just glommed on to the gay community with such venom and hate and and until that goes away until that dissipates greatly i mean there is still the purpose for our well-being and our children and our children's children to to be able to to live our lives truthfully and honestly and presently without condemnation and you know now more than ever yeah you know that's why we're jewish we have to give back you know you have to give back kate clinton i know you're a good catholic school girl still in so jewish kind of a coach so but we are are we parents you're a parent aren't you yes tell about that what do you want to know everything you want to not showing say pictures um no it's as any parent probably good parent would say it's the greatest thing that's ever happened to me um and it's certainly been um the most broadly expansive experience in my life you know it's the greatest production i've ever been a part of and i i didn't even do that conception part of it um but it certainly makes you think beyond yourself it pulls you out i mean i've had enough narcissism to to to get me through the career i've had but but um i really was ready to hand that over and it's such a lovely thing way to do that is to see and what's going to happen for this for this person and to really have that responsibility and and take that charge and um you know it happened at a wonderful time in my life and it is very broadening and it it it makes you see that bigger political picture what what's really important here what really matters well and it's part of what the religious or i should say the radical right really wants to do is to make our families invisible too i mean we should be invisible our family should be invisible the reason being the more visible we are the more it gives a lie to the kinds of myths that they've created about us and that's a very important thing to them to have people believe lies about us it seems to me the more the work that you've done kate for you know for years has essentially been very patiently and very uh comedically to say no actually it's you who's the fool and me here's what my life is really like and in essence um just i mean talking about everything not just them but about us and i think now the same with you amanda talking people know that you are in a long-term relationship that you have a family that you you know you're a real person and you play a real person on television and here's this sort of the same um connection it just i think makes us more real why you didn't ask me about my well i am a professional aunt you are someone has to be yes i know about that let's talk about our nieces no i was allergic to cats i can't do dogs so i am a professional aunt i make children laugh without touching them that's an incredible thing that i can do that just faces my piggy is awesome it knocks them out they're dying they love they're talking about aunt kate well you you call me you actually talked about uh your your niece i think it was when yeah um tell that story about it was around gay pride or stone oh yes my niece watched watch the whole stonewall thing on c-span with my sister and at the end of it she said now why do ungay people not like aunt kate and it was like i liked it i thought gay and ungay we'll go with that for a while but i mean just the questions that they've had i had big uh discussions with my nephew who was i think seven at the time and he couldn't understand why gay people couldn't be in the military and i was visiting and we talked about it for like two days i left my sister called me she said he's driving me crazy for we have talked about nothing else but why gay people can't be in the military he says it doesn't make sense that gay people can't feel in the military and she said finally she said i had to say to him paul that's the point it doesn't make sense and all he said was oh that's all he wanted to know well i think that's why so many radical right people are running for school boards is because now they see that it's very dangerous to allow children to think for themselves well you know we certainly don't want any kind of critical analysis taught in schools because then children will think for themselves the mormons just came out with a letter that said that the three most dangerous things to american democracy are and i think we qualify on all three gals hold on uh feminism homosexuality and critical thinking so what are we going to do about this radical right well i think it's what we're doing elect people like you thank you and keep showing up at those banquets and and keep talking and really making the art you know i mean we had a dinner and my dad was 83 was over and we were talking and we had told warned a few people not to get into real body functions um oh my dad but um and and we were talking in um an irvishy at the end of dinner said to my dad well mr clinton what do you think how do you think we should get these ideas into the mainstream and my father who is very taciturn just looked around and he said keep talking and that's what we have to do we just have to keep talking we have to make ourselves as ordinary as real as extraordinary as possible well i think that each of us in our own way is trying to do that i mean we are not ordinary uh may i say it i mean in this in this question i look at these three people here and i think probably people watching this are going well but you know they can do that because look at them i mean this one's a movie star you know this one's an incredibly famous uh uh stand-up comedian political critic critical thinker and this one's now a politician what has that got to do with my life and i think you know your story you were a school teacher what were you doing you were you were studying acting your whole life uh yeah just about just about i mean i majored in something every 10 minutes at the various colleges experience under college as i attended but i mean i i pretty much had that sense of direction for my life yes but i mean my life is extraordinarily ordinary i mean i quest for that i really do that that's it it takes an effort to do this to to come and and and and keep talking in a very public way it does but that effort has to be made but i i really do my wish is is to have to go back to those basics if if people only knew and that's that's what i'm here to say is that it really is quite quite calm and you know quite safe quite threatening and in this moment is the very extraordinary moment you know i mean i think there was a point when i was reading uh mary daley which i always thought was mayor daley you always got the better i did but um i was reading her and i had a very very clear sense that i was part of history you know and i think that the critical thing that everybody should know and take in is that we are all part of history and because we're such a minority we have an opportunity to make an extraordinary dent so in this time when you you know you tr quest to lea live that ordinary life it's an extraordinary moment and because you've done all these things because you've spoken out you know because you continue to speak out it's that's my journey yeah it's incredible yeah that's incredible thank you both very much another show well it's not another show it's actually this show i mean the the the great stories of history it seems to me have been ordinary people who thought themselves ordinary in extraordinary situations who've essentially lived up to them you know sort of stepped up as they say and both of you certainly have and i thank you very very much for being here thank you that was a quick hour so fast i'm really really pleased and i wish you both you know the most fabulous lives i love you both and i love you all too and um i hope you'll just watch this show over and over and over and get used to it because this is an extraordinary time and we're not really ordinary people not you not me get used to it [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] you