Get Used to It: Ep. 21, "Generations"

uh [Music] hi i'm sheila james kewell welcome to another episode of get used to it our talk show concerning lesbian and gay issues this is our holiday 94 show so welcome happy holidays to you and of course one of the things that we're most concerned about during the holidays just as americans and as people are being with our families often lesbian gay families are not recognized as such or sometimes we feel cut off from our families or we're worried that we will be you know what i mean the holidays raise a lot of those issues for us so we thought for our holiday show we'd like you to be able to see and listen to and me to talk with two of our families first i want you to meet tom soto and his mom nell soto they were at my house not long ago and listen in on our discussion joe not a silence show so obviously we're gonna do it um welcome to my living room it's not uh the room of the uh rich and famous but i have two famous not very rich but certainly famous uh people visiting with me here for the first part of our show uh our show which we've called generations we have a a son and a mother the son tom soto who is on the board of the coalition for clean air here in santa monica was president of that board an environmental activist long-time environmental activist and also a member of the board of the gay and lesbian community services center of los angeles and his famous mom nell soto who is a city council member in the city of pomona and also a member of the board of governors of the air quality management district that infamous aqmd so i see your name in the paper every so often actually both of you uh welcome very glad to have you here today for our uh this is our holiday show and and uh what we want to do uh on this show is really talk to you about the the relationship really the sort of family aspect of uh your lives together um you know often when gay or lesbian children um discover their own sexuality the very first thing that occurs to them is how am i going to tell my parents because sometimes it feels like such a high risk for us um so tom let me ask you first when you sort of discovered that uh in that you were gay or thought you might be uh did you tell your folks oh no i mean i i think that uh i probably became uh aware of that fact um you know so early on in life that it was it was always uh what i was or or who i am and was um you know largely um uh contained until i got into college and and not really a major priority to address with with with anybody without those folks that i had gone to college with who knew then um and certainly the the the political environment uh throughout my college career was you know certainly during the bush and reagan administration i mean you could uh not a great time because not a great time to come out not a great time to get student loans and so forth if you know things like that were discovered so it was it was not necessarily the the most healthy thing to do at that point but um you know i i think that as you'll find that a lot of my life is tied to what goes on politically around my life as well because it's so much one to me so you mean the sort of the integration of political work and well it must be growing up in a essentially in a political family really um so did i hear you say you ever came out to your folks never formally i mean i i would um you know i have a i have a philosophical um position about uh you know that you know coming out to people um i i i much rather um enjoy my life rather than preoccupy preoccupy myself with the potential emotional catastrophes or emotional benefits and i think that at least in my life given the strengths that i have in other areas you know those are those are the areas that i tend to uh concentrate on and i've always i've always felt that um uh you know it's it's it's it's uh rather than than get over it you know what's to discuss you know so really you've sort of let you operate and this is not an unusual thing in our community operate on the assumption that a lot of people know that this is your life they meet your partner when you have had one um you're on the board of the center so clearly you know you go to events you see me i've never been ashamed of it because i've i've always subscribed to the theory that uh you know if if um if if i deny myself i didn't deny much more right and if if you know it's it's uh it's it's it's part of a very ironically enough very staunch catholic belief that i was raised in that not to deny who you are yeah you know if you deny yourself you're denying christ and uh certainly uh that has played a big part in my life because uh we were raised very devout practicing catholics and and i think for the most part regardless of what the vatican may say i think that there's some element of revolutionary thought within the catholic church that i tend to incorporate into my life the the um well it's true the there's always this sort of dichotomy that activists the activists approaches of the church and the very sort of conservative approaches well but now i'll assume since you're here and we're talking about it that um you certainly know that tom is gay uh when did you first or do you do when did it first start to sort of occur to you or do you think you knew well i don't know you you think about it but i imagine being the mother you just sort of don't want to deal with it for a while and then comes the moment of acceptance and then the thought that that shouldn't matter in the other things that you do in life that are so important um and i think that your your sexual preference is a very private situation that that's how i feel i'm very old-fashioned about that and if that's his sexual preference then that's his business and i i feel as if uh he has been i think people should have a son like my like my tom i feel very fortunate that i'm his mother did it trouble you at all though i mean no somewhat somewhat but i because i just i like to see my children's children's sure but if that's not going to happen then i i accept it you know i have a lot of grandchildren already you have six children all together i'd like to see my daughter's children and i'd like to see tom's i'd like to you know i have a son that's 38 years old and has having children and i am you always want to see your children's children but that that's something i've come to accept were you worried that tom might be discriminated against or you know i mean one of the reasons i ask is because i think my parents loved me a lot and i think one of the things that bothered them was not that they were upset with me personally but that they were worried that the world was going to treat me badly and i would somehow not succeed or something absolutely you worry about that you worry about their health worry about what would happen if you know and uh you pray on it pray a lot i think that probably was has sustained me more than anything is my faith and the fact that no matter what i think that my prayers will always keep him safe will you pray for me too then [Laughter] i i like that i like that power well you're both you both come from a very um political activist um caring about the community and the world kind of tradition and i i'm interested because tom you're very active i mean it's interesting to me being on the center board but also so active in the uh you know in the environmental concerns etc um have you found that as you become more uh sort of out in the world people are more aware of your sexuality or is it a thing that doesn't arise in the environmental movement or wherever at all i think it certainly it certainly um is is becoming more obvious to a lot of people but um uh that is uh it is it's a concern of mine to some degree but you know i'm quite frankly i am so busy uh doing other things i have my own business that i run which has 15 people working in it uh we'll sit on the coalition for clean air board several other environmental organization boards and the center board um and uh uh you know my my position is that um uh you know that's the way i am i also came out here with two arms and two legs two um how do you feel about that well get over it um i've got something to do here and either you know work with me or get out of the way so i you know it doesn't uh it doesn't necessarily affect the way that i feel about myself or and i'm not really concerned necessarily about the way people feel about me the larger question is a community because you're talking about this community basis community concern and so forth is you know what can we do to bring our society to a higher higher level of understanding of the need to address this issue because it's not just it's not just the way things are it's the way things have been and the way things will continue to be and the larger question is is how i as an activist i as a political or a business leader can help to affect a change to improve the quality of life for this whole community of people that i am a member of and proudly so but it would be different wouldn't it if your folks really were against you oh absolutely i mean it's a big part of my underpinning i think that my my parents always were very positive about me and my mom's passed away now but my dad well i mean you know my dad's picture was in every paper with me after the election and it's a coming out for him too obviously and which i don't think you necessarily have so much because you're not you know your picture's not in the paper as a gay activist exactly still though it is a thing that gets around the family how how do your brothers and sisters feel about this do you think you know i'm not sure i've never really discussed it with them um and you know it's it's interesting because i've always had the perception that some know some don't and um but the other thing is that that i'm not i'm not home a lot either and you know if i were to put off portions of my life until i could get home to sit down and explain or make that such a priority that i have to do that then other things that i feel as though i need to get done including meet payroll um you know which is very mundane practical thing no one's ever talked to you about this now about any of your friends or your family your friends your kids well at least in my very very close to my older sons that are married and away from home i never discussed it with him but i do discuss it with my daughter and my other son my husband i don't know whether he what doesn't want to accept it or believe it but he's not very interested in that conversation your husband but we're like i think everything is overshadowed by the fact that so we're so very very proud of tom and his brothers having as many brothers as he does they're all so proud of him you know then and they think that he has just set the world on fire for himself that and and doing so much good that all those other things i don't think matter to them that they love him and and are proud of him and whatever else he has in life as long as he's not hurt or a criminal that's that's what counts the fact that he's a good person and that he's very very very active and very popular and that he's managed to do some things at such a young age they just they're they're in awe of his achievements if you will and and i think that's what counts to them i think the other doesn't matter that much they i'm sure don't think about it and if they do it's something that really doesn't matter to them because they're so overwhelmed with tom's capability of the things that he's done so is your family generally as as activists as the two of you in terms of um you know equal rights and social justice issues because the reason i ask i guess is because more and more the lesbian gay movement is moving into what i would consider its rightful place as a you know in the civil rights panel and it is an issue in the world not just a personal issue for our families i think one of the reasons maybe you're on the center board tom is because you you see the connection i mean i i'm sure of it the connection in terms of a movement and participating in the movement um so i i that would that would be something i think that would be important and it sounds to me in your family as well yeah i i i could um i mean through i was born in 1963 so a good portion of the 60s i i i can't remember that well but i could definitely remember you know the discussions and the peace marches anti-war um um activity that my mom was involved with when i was a kid i mean being carried on my dad's shoulder um you know during the in the the march for peace with the united farm workers and uh even to you know the most recent uh uh more spiritual and and and uh uh personal experience that i had was being able to pall bear for caesar chavez with my father there because he was the one in the state legislature that was he was the only voice for the united farm workers in the 1960s to him it was his passion it was his life it was his being and and with that type of background and the type of leadership that was instilled in our family at the dinner table it it it has really translated to me with the type of an agenda and passion that i have for improving uh the quality of life for my community as well and the environment um you know i ask myself why should i be discriminated against because i'm gay but i also ask myself why are we still using diesel why are we still using this fuel that kills people um and uh why do we leave and live in a state which allows the discrimination of people based on sexual orientation so you know those those are the larger questions that i you know i ask myself and and and uh and and and have have some ability uh to change because i know i've done in the environmental movement i know that with respect to urban environmental quality of life i have made an impact and that was the biggest thing we learned in my household is that one person can make a difference uh margaret mead nel soto and and i think that's the same type of difference i would like to make in the gay and lesbian community and it is disturbing because a lot of people do not view the gay and lesbian rights agenda as necessarily legitimate civil rights issue i want to know that before i leave this earth one of the things that could be on my tombstone is the fact that i helped to change them so you know and i've had interesting experiences and discussions with people members of our own state legislature who have been largely supportive who really don't don't understand and i'd like to help make that change um we were talking about the sort of the relationship between other movements and the gay lesbian movement and just in terms of civil rights um is that something that you uh have well i i feel as though you've been very supportive of tom in a lot of ways and i guess i wanted to ask you nell and about how you think your husband phil might respond as well oh i think he's he's such a nice guy it won't matter to him nothing really when it comes to his children i think that you would have to know phil to be know what a wonderful exemplary father he is well if tom becomes more let's say more even prominent in the movement it may be one of the things as i said my folks went through is that now everybody knows and so it's almost as though the parents come out as well have you ever talked to phil about sort of how you'll respond if this becomes more common knowledge no we really haven't discussed it and i'll tell you why that to me is such a small part of of everything that there are so many things in this world that need to be done that need fixing that and that's one of the small things that needs to be fixed as to is to the acceptance along with everything else that needs some kind of conscientious help to make better i mean that's that's just one of the things there are so many and if he chooses to do to try to make that one thing better along with everything else he's trying to do i don't think it's going to matter and and it shouldn't well i think that it probably your pride and and phil's pride in tom has been a very important part of of the of the confidence the family is always anxious to know the last thing that tom has done you know his brothers will say what's tom doing now and or what is that little gotten into now you know and what is he doing and to them it's important the things that he that he does and the changes that he's effectuated in his short life it's almost incredible some of the things and they're all very very social minded and things that they you know they know what needs to be done and being busy with their families they haven't been able to be as active as they were my number two son during the vietnam vietnam fiasco had taken to writing poetry about the atrocities and things that were going on and it was published it was published in the local paper and he was in high school you know and the marches that they accompany me on the things that we're making signs you know fair housing and uh you know you have to everybody has equal rights and it just was it's been an exciting life for them as well now that i look back to me it was a perfectly natural thing to be doing you know and i don't know how i could have existed doing anything else you know the house didn't matter as much and the things that i material things didn't matter but it did matter for us to spend 40 50 on the ticket for somebody that needed to get some help i have to laugh sometimes when tom says the first memory he has of politics is that one evening he woke up and came into the kitchen and there was just sandra and a bunch of other people eating his mother's burritos so that's the kind of memories that they have and my philosophy and hoping that i could instill in them was that you're put in this world for something you're just not put in this world just to be you know you have to do something leave something behind leave something behind that make will make things better and i think they all feel that and they're very and that's why the activism and i think that that's why they they make sure they're interested in whoever is running at least if they can help one little bit to to continue the philosophy in which they've been brought up they may not be able to be as active as tom is politically but they they are still very very aware of what is going on and the things that i think that that's the satisfaction that i get and the pride that his brother's having his sister and the family has in him is because of the things that he's done and what he's capable of doing and looking forward to many many great things that he will do so if you had advice to give to parents watching this show now who i don't know if the word suspect is the correct one but i have come to the realization that their children might be gay or lesbian what would you say to them i would say that it whatever else they're doing is i think it's what you have to come it's you accept that you accept whatever else they do just as he said i've got two legs and two hands and you know a head and uh i'm accepted for that that's accepted wise and everything accepted so i think that i would tell those parents that look at the good that's being done and look at the accomplishments and what goes on in their head about being able to do things for others i think that's probably been my philosophy that if i haven't done anything else with my children i've instilled in them that you leave behind something that is beneficial to others that can make the world better even if it's just a little drop in the ocean it's still a little the drop that somebody has put in there to to be perhaps cultivated and groomed or seed that somebody else can cultivate and grow in there i sincerely believe that one person can make a difference and that's what god put me here for to instill that into my children then i think every parent should realize that every human being has something to offer and that is such a small part of of everything that you can do well thank you both very much thank you happy holidays and i really really appreciate you being on the show and um you're you're both an inspiration i'm going to go out and do extra work today just because of you don't go away we'll be right back with our second family at first we didn't know what to think he said he was gay we thought we had done something i was so angry so hurt we didn't know where to turn talking to other families at parents flag was a lifesaver now we're closer than ever she's the same daughter she always was we love him just as much as always parents flag helped us through it you are not alone for the helpline nearest you call 202-638-4200 hi welcome back to get used to it i'm sheila james cuell and we're right smack in the middle of our holiday 1994 show today we're talking with two families um about their relationships and uh sort of their histories and ups and downs and our second family today i'm happy to introduce to you first johanna grama who is co-founder of glad gay and lesbian alliance against defamation and who will be big job the co-chair of the 1995 glad media awards welcome johan thanks and her partner devorah freed who is a full-time artist i wish you could see some of her art pieces they're wonderful and they they hang in the home and i've i'm telling you i'm going to bid on one of those you better give me one okay um and uh this uh uh beautiful baby is anjum actually their third child uh jahan's first biological uh child and devorah has two well i guess you'd still call them children though they're now 19 and 22 but when johan and devorah first got together they were five and eight so they've raised two children so far and and this is the third and this is frank agra jahan's father who was a surgeon and is now um chair of harmony gold which is a film production and distribution company uh here in los angeles welcome frank thanks jahan devorah really glad you're here today i think it's really good for our 50 million people i'm kidding in the audience to see really our real lives and to hear us i think tell our stories which are always the most interesting part of anybody's life jahan let me start with you probably the main issue that we have as lesbian gay people in our families that other kids don't have is that this is an issue of a thing to tell our parents and how difficult it is before it happens how we tell them how we're going to let them know how they find out or whatever what happened in your case well it it was actually uh a difficult situation because you know i was confused also as to whether i was gay or not and i had many male relationships and also relationships before but actually my parents asked me if if i was and it was rather funny because they asked me separately and uh [Music] this is what happens huh okay okay okay okay it's hard to compete now somebody else yeah wc field said never work with babies or animals so but um i told them both separately and uh they asked me separately and initially we had a sort of little secret between us and that was fine and then when they both found out that the other knew as well and then it you know uh then it became more of a story and it was very tough initially i can't remember do you remember frank of course craig may not know because they kept it a secret from each other no i think i asked first i think so but i had forgotten completely because it's been what 13 years now yeah i had forgotten how i reacted and believe it or not jahan explained to me how i had reacted and i got shocked because i mean i accept and i love them and and there's nothing and i thought that i was always like this but that seems that i wasn't it seems that i said vile things i said i will disinherit you and and yeah you know won't want to see you again it's you know i'm shocked that um what was it that made you suspect and then finally it must have been difficult for you to ask as well well you know i mean she left home and then just didn't come back for four or five days and i knew where she was and then i called and and i had a feeling uh that something like this might have happened or is happening and so on but it seems that i really was very very disturbed and but we grow so uh 13 years ago is a little bit different now it's true and i i what i find often with parents is that they i mean it's clear to me i know both of you and how much you love jahan and often parents feel it's a terrible thing for their children to do because they're going to be so unhappy do you remember but that's that's the the only thing that i ask and i even ask it up till now of both my children i have a third child now who's dwara and i ask her most probably this are you happy are you happy and i do not mean are you happy because you're a lesbian or are you happy because you're with dwara are you happy are you happy are you fulfilled in what you're doing because i believe that in this life we live a certain amount of time and then we go elsewhere so we should try and make the best of it and be happy so this to me the most important thing it doesn't really matter if she's you know with a man with a woman with whatever it are you happy that's the the most important thing are you happy yes and look johann do you remember when your mother asked you how she how she approached it yeah i remember her asking me if something was going on and i remember grinning and saying yes and i remember actually both of them saying my mother saying don't tell your father and my father's saying don't tell your mother or it will kill them so um but it is difficult because you know i didn't know if i would be happy i i grew up with all the stereotypes and was socialized you know the same way so what did i know if i could make a life if i could have a child or how would i have a child i've always wanted children so it's uh it is an education you must have been scared i think i was too um happy at that time and you know just carried away with with feeling in love to worry about it but yeah later on i i really was scared and i didn't want to lose my family which is the most important thing to me or my lover which was the other most important thing to me so it was a real struggle not to lose both and i know a lot of people have to choose and have made choices i think that's the saddest thing that you can't when people cannot have both but um we all struggled with this and made a commitment to it to working it out i think that's what's important dwarf you remember the first time that you met frank uh well actually um i met him the first time with my ex-husband because we were invited for a business lunch because he built an addition to their house that's how we met the family so you can say really that i was the one who introduced it we do say [Laughter] so but talking about happy i remember that we were intent on making everybody happy and we realized that that's impossible we didn't live together for over 10 years we had two residences because we thought the children would be my older children would be more happy if we would keep it a little more distant and make arrangements with them if they wanted to have children sleep over and would be maybe embarrassed then we would make previous arrangements and she would spend the night that night at her residence and so forth and now i think we would do it completely different where we would first of all make sure that we are happy and satisfied with the way we live our life and then have everybody else adjust to that we do that a lot though because we're so concerned that just our being in the world is going to be such an affront to people that we you know but it's i think it's partly because we think we'll be punished by our families that your children you know wouldn't speak to you i mean you have enormous investment in your children of course the interesting thing is that parents our parents also have an enormous investment in us when when i told my parents i was 39 years old and by that time they had too much to lose to say oh sorry you know goodbye but people do it two people do it all the time to their kids they just cut them out of their lives we were very lucky you know i've yeah this this thing that i just heard right now that vora said and uh it really it makes me very sad and i would like on behalf of whoever was was involved really apologize that we made it very tough for you especially at the beginning really we love you very much love you too now have you been able to integrate sort of your lives i mean here we are in a holiday season and um i guess one i mean all families have problems like whose family you know where are we going to go for the holidays it's too far to go to austria so we we go to my parents house and sometimes we do it at our home let's say for thanksgiving and we do have a hanukkah party at our house and christmas back at my parents house so we cross back and forth yeah well that's another interesting thing of course because you're also in another way i guess across cultural and this way you know in another way across cultural couple because of the being egyptian and yeah israeli or no i'm asked i'm austrian and i i have to be honest with you in the beginning it was harder for me to tell my parents that she's muslim than that she's a woman that was very funny her parents are like she's with an arab how did they respond when you told them each of those things well thank god during that period egypt and israel made peace and so there was a very good feeling about the whole thing and also she's so charming that they just fell in love with her so i was really lucky about that and the woman part i think my father didn't really take it seriously because he thought that women together it's a really beautiful thing and it's a thing that will that will go it will come and go and he was kind of hoping that it was just a transitional period between my divorce and my next man and my mother is very accepting and loving and she is very much like frank in that she just wants to see me happy because she saw me very unhappy in the past so so do you get to visit them oh yeah at least once a year we either go there or they come here what about the more extended family i know that you probably have a number of extended family members miserable miserable the whole situation is miserable they don't know how to because for instance uh something which i think is hilarious uh when jahan got the baby this is lovely and zoom in egypt they say that she had got married and then got divorced oh that was a stupid thing that's the story that they tell now so poor kids so they can explain the baby you want me to hold her which is ridiculous i think so this is this is your family in egypt yes uh my wife's family uh-huh my family is in america so my wife's families so but you told them yes i tell everyone i mean i i'm i'm proud of you know what they're doing and what they're standing for and uh here let me hold her a minute let's see if anjun needs a break or maybe not maybe she does maybe we'll take a little on june break we'll be right back [Music] it would be nice if latex condoms were automatic [Applause] but since they're not using them should be simply because a latex condom used consistently and correctly will prevent the spread of [Music] hiv hi welcome back anjum is now in the booth directing the show just so you'll know very comfortable and we're going to get a lot of very interesting camera angles out of this um we were talking about the extended family and their response to knowing because one of the things that i think is uh that people don't think about when they come out to their parents is that their parents then need to come out to everybody or have to think about whether to do it or not or who not to tell you know my mother said fine we love you still but we're not going to tell anybody in the family and then of course my picture with my father is on the front page of every you know paper in the country and wherever my father goes and people go oh you're the one with the gay daughter so it is necessary you know that they come out but um who was the first person that you told frank in your family i think i told my wife first that's good that's i think that was the start you know uh and what was her what was your dialogue back about i was i was mad at the beginning i was disturbed and mad i think she even took it a little bit more calmly than i did and then she didn't change and i changed um and this was thanks to some friends that had visited us from italy to friends of ours that are lesbian that we knew now for about 25 years and they're very very dear friends of us italian ladies and they talked to us and we were suddenly confronted with stupidity meaning what the hell are we doing what of course we're stupid you know so i got out of the stupidity a little bit faster than my wife that would you think two giants she's not here today [Laughter] i think i i think that you sort of go in and out with this issue as many people do so you know my dad was great for a period and then my mother would you know have a relapse because you wonder you know i mean now i've had a child and i want everything for her and i think that they had a lot of expectations about what my life would be and that's hard to adjust to but i remember one person that you told um in the arab community was trying to matchmake for me and i think she asked you do you remember you told me this story she said well there's this this very you know nice guy do you think your daughter would be interested in meeting him and to my dad said well not really because she's the co-president of the gay and lesbian alliance against defamation so that was the way he i heard that he came out was about what i was doing with glad um not that or you told some other people i didn't give them a chance to ask really because suddenly at a certain age all your parents and all your relatives in the whole world wants all your daughters to get married and of course back home they used to get married when they were 16 and she was already 26 coming onto 30 you know so the my god she's going to be a old maid but so you uh you just have to face things and you just tell them so but it's interesting what you said too about because you're becoming more sort of public as an activist i mean i think that's one of the things that happens to our families is that it's it's okay you can keep it a secret from everybody until the day you're on good morning america you know talking about some issue in the community and everybody else around the world is going isn't that frank's daughter um so in fact her cousin in egypt saw her on cnn in cairo so that's how she came out to her i came out to my cousins and uh allowed them to tell their parents and it was hard also because it's my parents family so you know where where do i get to claim part of my family and say no it's mine too so i did it at the cousin level and um they told their parents um who you know block it out don't fully understand it these are the ones who said that she got married and then got divorced and yeah and now she's left with the baby and know husband and her husband and her friend or no they don't mention her actually they do yeah i think that that she's my friend and that um i think they even say that that we live together also don't forget that egyptians are very physical women hold hands in the street and kiss each other and touch each other they don't necessarily have to be right men do the same right so you know you can see sometimes her mother and i will walk hand in hand in the street and he has a totally different connotation or at least not a not as much it's not so sexualized as it is here yeah very much very very gender divided here and any contact between you know women or men is so sexualized here people are really into trouble here when i first moved to america because i just come from living in italy where people are also very physical and i had no idea but i that i was being that different but um you know just being a pal or arm-in-arm with a male friend or a female friend and i apparently was sending the wrong messages left and right literally yes yes and when we arrived we used to walk uh together like two men friends of mine would arrive and we'd walk and we're talking about 20 years ago on sunset and it was looked upon well you take a look at sadat president sadat when he was talking to carter and he would put his hand on his knee to make a point and you'd feel president carter moving a little bit away this happened he wasn't ready for that he wasn't ready for that well um and you were telling me about a ceremony that uh that you had for anjou yes when june was born we wanted to have a special ceremony for her um birth and we found an egyptian ceremony that is non-sectarian apparently jews muslims and christians alike celebrate that and it's basically uh on the seventh day of your life you send the angels that have been protecting you throughout your soul life i suppose and you're in the pregnancy and you announced to the child that now it's on its own and its mothers are gonna take care of him or her and it was a very beautiful ceremony with candles everybody held a candle walking around the house and singing songs and it has a lot of rituals with one of them is shaking the baby in a little basket to shake out all the evil spirits and so we just went through the whole thing and frank and ollie remembered from their youth this ceremony that they had forgotten you know let me mention something about this ceremony you see vora and jahan it's this relationship that excites me i don't think if jahan was married to a man or with somebody else it's dvorah she's the artist and so on that they looked for this ceremony that we had forgotten about i saw this ceremony only once in a village like about 50 some years ago before i was born just just kidding yes i understand so uh it's wonderful and they really studied it and uh it was it was very moving very very moving and everybody there was you know had tears in their eyes and it's it's wonderful so this this points also to the relationship you know when two are together uh two women two men man and a woman and they're fighting all the time and so on that's not a marriage that's not friendship that's not love but if two people it doesn't matter who they are what they are are together and there is a harmony between them that's it it makes other people look and say there must be something right here and that's why we come back to the question are you happy well you said something like that or i think like that at the at the baby shower because there was a a statement do you remember what was said yeah my father was saying how happy he was to see how many friends we have because there were so many people and it was such a great feeling which is wonderful you know real sense of community i i think it's also interesting that the idea of family and doing this ritual when i told my relatives in egypt that you know i needed the the special basket to be shipped over which they never found to send us they were so surprised that we would do this ceremony and it's you know we create our own sense of ritual and families and and i think that we have more leeway as uh gays and lesbians because we don't just fit in you know we don't just take the traditional heterosexual route so we sort of merge things and um the other thing that was poignant about the ceremony is that dvorah made a speech about the the baby's family and in this case it's such an extended family you know in terms of her mother's her father and then her three grandmothers her three grandmothers that was very lovely you know tell tell a little more who is this billy's family yeah well um i basically said that she's a very lucky baby because she's a very big loving family and that her biological father was there and he has two brothers and his parents and i named them all by name and my mother and my father passed away unfortunately but my sister her husband and then the cousins names and uh so as i prepared this speech i realized there was like 50 names was her closest family i mean i couldn't even expand because we didn't have that much time and my brother and her immediate cousins her brother by the way built the urn that that you used to light the candles in he made it all by himself from looking at a documentary that i showed him and so everybody was very involved all the women were dressed in the traditional egyptian galabias long dresses and my older daughter and her two best friends were throwing rose petals from the balcony it was really very special sounds wonderful and gay and straight alike and all all religions were there so it was very special well i've been at some of the gatherings that you've had actually it was i was struck at several of the events that this community does have events and especially with activists they're fundraising events normally but at at your house frank where we i mean we i must have been there five or six times already for various glad events or i think one of the center women's events was there it was uh you're always welcome well you're very voted and does it it must feel okay to you because we're there all the time but i mean to have your entire home and that wonderful front yard i guess you would call it just filled with lesbians you know if you were there a funny thing happened uh jahan and vora's 10th anniversary and we had some of my wife's relatives from cairo and there was peaches and they were it was beautiful i mean with candles and the moon was there and so on and they said what is this for and i didn't want to start the whole thing i said it's their birthday period everybody has the same birthday they didn't ask you know but they know that that family knows now yeah it's actually interesting because with the birth of our daughter um i guess that that first two weeks adrenaline got me going and i was on the phone telling just about anybody who would listen and writing letters and um it was it was another coming out experience for me to have this child and and introduce her to the world you know i talked to my sister and told her that she's expecting a baby and she told me something which was very funny she said i'm very happy now because the only thing that bothered me she's talking that she was a lesbian was that she was not going to be able to have a baby now that she has combined having a baby she was very proud and to tell you i'm very very happy i know each one has his own uh well that's what i think i mean is that mostly they seem to be worried that we won't be happy right what will my question imagine a very narrow life they imagine a very unloved life or or very discriminated against life and often of course it is but nobody imagines all the joys right that we can have as family and with each other and and sometimes even more because we expect our parents to be so negative or at least we hope they won't be but it's a possibility when they're not it's a greater joy almost it's like my parents you know are so wonderful we're very close to the end of the show but i wanted to ask you there are an awful lot of people who want to come out to their parents and i want to ask you to to give them some advice just for the close of the show um should they come out will you talk to the to the children and i want you to to say what you would say to their parents i would tell them to to tell their parents that it's a very difficult thing to do but it's easier to live with the fact of being out how however difficult you might imagine it to be it's not as difficult as remaining in the closet it's that simple so i i would come out i would also say that they should be patient with their parents in other words they shouldn't close off and shut down right away when the parents are upset or angry because they have to go through the same stages that they themselves went through and it's really important to be patient it takes a few years and just say they're happy they're happy that's all they're just happy so your advice is be happy absolutely yeah well thank you all very very much thank you it's a wonderful show and that is our show and we wish you happy holidays and take care of each other [Music] [Applause] [Music] you