Get Used to It: Ep. 172, "Voices of Our Lives: Roland Palencia"

(keyboard clanking) (bright music) - Hi, welcome to Get Used To It. I'm Sheila Kuehl. And as always, I will guide you effortlessly through the hour of this show. Those of you who have seen the show before know that on occasion, we do one in a series of what we call Voices of our Lives, in which we'll talk to one person who has made a significant difference, impact and contribution in the LGBT community. And today is one of those shows, 'cause it's my great, great pleasure to have as my guest, Roland Palencia, who's the new executive director of Equality California. And for those of you in other states, Equality California is California's organization for lobbying an advocacy on LGBT issues in Sacramento and frankly, across the state. So welcome, Roland. - Well, thank you. - [Sheila] Congratulations and condolences. It's a big job. (Roland and Sheila laughing) - It's gonna be exciting, yeah. - Well, I'm really happy to have you on the show. - [Roland] Thank you, Sheila. - I think our audience would really love to know kind of more about you. - Sure. - We know what you're doing this minute, but do you mind if we, sort of go all the way back? - Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. - Where were you born, where did you grow up? - Well, I was born and raised in Guatemala, Central America. And I was born on the Caribbean side of Guatemala between Belize and Honduras. So it's a very Afro-Latin kind of environment. And Guatemala happens to be a small country, probably the size of Tennessee, 14 million people, 28 languages, mostly Mayan base. - [Sheila] Wow. - But where I was born, there was a language, it was called Garífuna. And Garífuna was a mixture of Western African languages with Spanish and some British English kind of thing. So I was always, I was raised among just listening to different sounds, different ethnicities, different people. So it was always kinda like a natural thing for me to be among people from just different backgrounds. And the United Fruit Company was really big in the place where I was born. It was a port. It's the largest port in Guatemala. So there were a lot of Americans who also went to my school. It was a Catholic school, which is the school were generally the children of business people and people who were in the United Fruit Company will go. So I was very, very exposed to a lot of ethnicities, a lot of languages and just be that as part of the oxygen that I breathed, so to speak. - [Sheila] And what did your parents do? - They, my dad and my mom, they had a small business, it was a bakery. We had 25 employees, so it was a mid-size business and it was a little economic engine in our hometown. So we kinda like help out in the business and assume, you might know children who are born in businesses, there's a different mentality. You become very entrepreneurial, you kinda become self-sufficient, but you also understand that you have to be all about customer service, that you really depend on other people buying your product. And that really gave me some key concepts in terms of how I got involved in the movement and how I have served the movement in terms of just being able to be of service and be able to also see many non-profit organizations as really a business with a social consciousness. - Right. With customer-oriented. - [Roland] Customer oriented, absolutely. - Right. So how did you come to live in California? - Well, my father was a businessman, a small businessman, but, he was also a man with a social consciousness. He was very political. He eventually joined the underground movement in Guatemala to overthrow the military dictatorship that Guatemala's had been living for many decades. - That must have been very dangerous for you guys too. - It was extremely dangerous. It was extremely, it was basically, he had to hide. We barely saw him and he was gone most of the time. And when he will come in, it will be in the evening for a few hours, we'll say hello, and he'll just go back out to whatever he was going. So it really made my mom very concerned in terms of our safety, her safety. So she decided to come to the U.S. in the early '70s. So she left and she wasn't planning to stay here, but she realized that there were a lot of freedom here in the U.S., especially as a woman, as a Latina woman. All of a sudden she was able to find her own job, create her own network. And some of the people that she met was actually a gay couple. One was a Jewish man and the other one was a Mexican-American man. And they loved my mom and they basically became her confidence and her support system, part of her support system. They eventually became our immigration sponsors. So from the get go, my story is a gay story. - (laughs) Well, about your own sexuality though, how old were you when you moved to California? - I was almost 18 when I came to the U.S. - So did you know you were gay when you were in Guatemala? - I knew I was, I didn't have the term or the concept of the idea what gay was, but I knew I was very different since I was five. Like most of us, we really know really early in terms of our sexuality. I knew I liked to play with girls when I was supposed to be playing with boys. And that changed later on of course, but- (Sheila and Roland laughs) And I had an extensive network of female cousins that I play with and it just felt so right. And I was not really too enthused about being in team sports, like soccer or basketball or anything along those lines. And I think that that is kind of like the trajectory of many of us. - And were you in any kind of activism in Guatemala? - No. - Or it was- - I was a very quiet, well-behaved, I was really one of the best. My mom tells one of the best children you can ever have of. (Sheila laughs) I did, I was heavily responsible. One of the things that happened is, as my dad went and joined the revolution, so to speak, and my mom came to the U.S. So we stayed there. We stayed there for like four and a half years. - So your mom came to the U.S., but you stayed in Guatemala? - Exactly. All of us have stayed, all the five children. - I see. - My older brother and I was, I'm the second oldest, but my brother went to a solution boarding school. I eventually kind of like joined him later on, but I basically was the parent at the age of 14 when they left, I stayed there and I was basically the parent. We stayed with family members, but I was the one who was taking care of my younger siblings. So it really also showed me a lot about protecting families, a lot about the responsibility of even raising your own family and how, providing a safe space, which is so resonates with what, the kind of work that we're doing now. - Right. - Yeah. - So what was it like for you suddenly you came to the U.S. to join your mother? - [Roland] Correct. - And it must have been quite a transition? - Yeah, by that time, my father had been killed and disappeared. So he was killed in '71. We came here in the mid '70s We were still there when that happened. It was traumatizing. It was traumatizing to my mom because she was here in the U.S. - Sure. - Certainly to us. And she really felt really strongly that we needed to come to the U.S. as soon as possible. - And so you were on a plane, a boat, a car, a bus? - We- - Must have been quite a trip. - Yeah, we actually took a bus because my mom didn't have a lot of money. So we had to- - Up through Mexico. - Yeah, that took days, that took days to get here. - Sure. - And that was quite a trip. And it was the first time that we were actually outside of Guatemala and it was quite a journey. And all we knew is that we wanted to join our mother. - Sure. - Because our father was no longer around. - So was she in L.A? - She was in L.A. She's only been in L.A. It's the only city she's ever, yeah. - And so did you continue education in California? - Yeah, so I came here and did a couple years in high school and then I went to UCLA. One of the good things about a Catholic education is you really get the basics of math and grammar and language and just good education. I mean, I went to, all through, most of my primary and secondary school in Guatemala, I went to Catholic schools. I went to a solution boarding school. And that was very interesting, 'cause you were pretty much kinda like in a monastery kind of thing. And the food was horrible. That's all I remember. (Sheila and Roland laughing) - Yeah. I guess it's only good in the monasteries where they grow their own food. - Exactly, no, they didn't. - You know, whatever. - No, it was in dry climate. They couldn't grow, they couldn't grow anything. - Right. So at UCLA, were you drawn to activism? What years where you there? - Yes. So I was there, I graduated in 1982 and I started to come out as a gay man like in 1980, '81. I was already dating men, going out, and doing the disco thing and it was the rage at that time. I wanted to, so one of the things that happened that happens with a lot of immigrants, especially, if you come from kind of a middle class family, you feel the contrast, like the shock of how you're treated in your native land and how you're treated here. And just the conversation around immigrants and what that means. And all of a sudden it kind of involves you, even if you're not personally part of the conversation, it involves you. - [Sheila] Right. - And so for me, it was such a dissonance between how we were raised and what the concept of being an immigrant in the U.S. was all about. So I wanted to do something about that. I wanted to change the conversation because I knew that, first of all, this nation, for the most part, except for Native Americans, is a nation founded by immigrants, those are our roots. - Right. - We're just a few generations away from people being from another country for the vast majority of Americans. So I wanted to change the conversation about immigrants from Latin America. So I joined Chicano group called, MEChA Movimiento Estudiantil Chicana/o de Aztlan, which you know quite well because- - I knew. - Because you were one of the troublemakers at that. - Early on when MEChA was formed, there were no Chicano or Latin American deans in my office. - Yeah, exactly. Wow. - So I got to be their advisor. The same with the Black Student Union. And I, you know. - So you, yeah. So you know the history. - It was sort of like, whoa. Well, it was a great education for me on social justice. - Yeah, absolutely. - You know, what was going on, but MEChA was pretty well established by that time. - Yeah, absolutely. And so one of the, and for me, it wasn't even about the Chicano, or, you know, or even the radical politics or anything I thought that was part of it. But it was more having a space where I could be a Latino here in the U.S. A year or so later I wanted to be the co-chair of the organization. But that time people knew that I was gay and a couple people approached me who were running against me or they wanted somebody else to run. And they basically said, "If you run, we're gonna tell everyone that you're gay." And my definition of gay, gayness at that time was like, very internalized homophobia. We're like bad people. Even though it was so contrary to what I felt deep inside, I still had this mental constructs and even emotional constructs of homophobic kind of idea what a gay person was. And I just did not wanna have anything to do with it. And I just quit and then- - Quit MEChA and didn't run for a co-chair? - Quit MEChA. I didn't run for co-chair. So what I did is I started to really look deep inside and said, no, no, I had to fight back. This is not right. And I just felt that it was such an inconsistency to talk about freedom and justice and yet who I was, was not part of that equation. So I met, so I went to the Gay and Lesbian Center. It was right on Highland at that time. I think it, Steve Schulte was the executive director there. And there was a support group for gay, Latino men. And I joined the group and I wanted it to become an organization. So whole bunch of us got together and we turned the support group into an organization. And we call it Gay Latinos Unidos, and then eventually, Gay and Lesbian Latinos Unidos. What was really significant about that is that that was the time, we're talking about the early '80S when lesbians and gay men were not necessarily working together. And we really wanted to break through all kinds of oppressions. And so we headed Gay and Lesbian Latinos Unidos, and it was very popular. We didn't have all the competition that people have like Facebook and videos (Sheila laughs) and all like that, it was just incredibly popular. And the center was really instrumental in creating this space. And so that was my first, kind of- - Well, even the Gay and Lesbian Center itself. - Correct. - Their sign used to say the Gay Services Center. - The Gay, exactly. Exactly. - Or Community Services Center. - [Roland] Yeah. - And one day some lesbian spray painted the caret, and say and lesbian. - Exactly. Yeah. Correct, yeah. - So it was the Gay and Lesbian Community Services Center. - So that was one thing that we immediately did. What eventually got a job with the Gay and Lesbian Center. My job was to help LGBT youth, especially transgenders to get employment because the unemployment rate among transgenders was and still is very high. And it was a very, very difficult job, but I think that it really taught me so much about the pain, the challenges, but also the potential that our community, our people have and it really turned the- - When you say it was difficult, do you mean it was difficult to find employers to understand? - To find employers. - Or difficult for you personally as well? - No, I think, no. The employers, I mean, just there was, so most of the employers were gay businesses, but there were small businesses and many of the employment was temporary. So it was a very unstable situation, but we used to have some government funds to help us with that. And of course, with Ronald Reagan, well, a few years after he came in, he decided to get rid of that. And I think that was, to me, that was a way because we also helped to develop leadership. by doing some of this. - Right. - And I think it was really, they saw the writing on the wall that these non-profits were really creating like a cadre of potential leaders and activists that might not necessarily be in tune with their agenda. - That government funding, that early funding, CETA funding. - [Roland] Correct. Comprehensive employment. - We call it Mama CETA funding. - Mama CETA. (laughs) - What we call it. So many people that I speak to in our community, got their sort of their first jobs on a CETA grant. - Absolutely. - But, you know, when a person deciding to sort of spend their lives in social service, public service, it's not a usual thing, especially coming from a business family and entrepreneurial family. - Quite right. - Although, as you said, you know, your father was a revolutionary. What do you think it was even just at this point in yourself? - Yeah. - You come to the United States, couple years of high school to make up in UCLA. - Yeah. - But what you wanna do is somehow in the social services center. - Yeah. - I mean, why was that? - I just can't, I can do quite well on my own. With the education that I have, the networks that I built, I just wanted the people to have a bit of what I have. I also don't necessarily see, I don't know. I just think that we can have a much better world when all the limitations that keep individuals and communities from living their highest potential can be removed. I think that we can really find a lot of solutions to a lot of the problems that we're having. And just faith, faith in people. I really have, I'm an, how to say, the relentless optimist. (Sheila laughs) No matter what happens, I'm always like get up and go back. But I think also, social justice people come from all walks of life, but I think, I remember when I was a kid and how marginalized I felt and how I remember that I, 'cause Guatemala is a very, it's almost like there's a caste society in some ways in the sense that there's a hierarchy, economic, ethnic, and so forth. And we used to have help in terms of, like mates or what have you but, and those women were treated so incredibly badly. And I remember as a kid, I will defend them. I would say that's not right. And I was accused of dating half of them, because that's why I was defending them and, you know. - Sure. - Exactly. (Sheila laughs) - But I remember that as an early child and I think it had to do with how we're marginalized and we connect to that pain in other people and we connect to also their potential. But who they could become if those societal restrictions were not there. - It must have been difficult though even at the center. 'Cause you said the center was supportive. But it was a very divided time. - [Roland] Correct. - And I think a lot of our White brothers and sisters, it didn't even occur to us that there was this division. - Correct. Yeah. - Or that there was, you know, people were going through the AIDS crisis. - Correct, they are. - And they thought they were just taking leadership, but it must have been, I don't know. It must have felt a little separate. I think it was important to establish. - Yeah, well, equality is not spread equally. - Right. - We know that. And I think that we, one of the things that I hope I can contribute is transform that conversation that we don't need to duplicate the hierarchies that exist outside of our community. That we could be a lot more innovative, a lot more queer about it. A lot more different about it. And that we could actually create a blueprint and even a model for the rest of society to follow. We happen to be in a very privileged position. We are the most diverse, civil rights movement in the history of this nation. Think about it. We speak every language. There is no other group like that. We have every sexuality and a variation there of, that you can think of. - [Sheila] Right. - Gender identity, gender regionally, we come from everywhere, we're everywhere. Just about every age. I mean, kids are coming out at the age of 10, 11, and some of us even knew at the age of five and they already have the language. They already have the work that you and I have done. - [Sheila] Right. - They have inherited that and they have elevated the conversation of being queer and LGBT to a much higher level than when you and I were being, you know. - Absolutely. Well, that's what the work was for. - Exactly, exactly. So I think that we were microcosm and we had this amazing embarrassment of riches that our diversity reaches wide and deep. - But I think you also saw that there was a need to be welcoming. - [Roland] Correct. - So at Gay and Lesbian Latinos Unidos. - [Roland] Correct. Correct. - And then there were other organizations that I think you- - Well, you know, I was the chief of operations and vice president at AIDS Healthcare Foundation and what moved me- - Right at AHF. Right. - Yeah. What moved me there was that I wanted, I mean, all kinds of people were being impacted. As a matter of fact at that time, mostly was White gay men, the minority epidemic had not necessarily, was not as in full force in the early '80s. And I created an organization called VIVA!, which means long live. - Right. - That basically was a gay and lesbian Latino arts organization. So we could keep the memory of the artists alive. And we did. We collected a lot of things and we actually have a booklet that collects their poems and you know- - Artists who passed away of AIDS? - Who passed away, that we knew that were going to. - [Sheila] Right. And eventually joined AIDS Healthcare Foundation. And that work obviously was for all communities. - Right. - Especially those communities who could not afford to pay for their own medicines or who didn't have access to healthcare and so forth. And that was communities of all ethnicity. And I think that that's, for me, is I'm very proud to be a gay man, a Latino man, an immigrant. And I wanna use my experience, but also transcend, I shouldn't say transcend, but just connect that experience. And I think if we do that, connect that humanity to other people's humanities. And I always, like I said, it was probably 'cause where I was born, I was born in a very multicultural environment of the Caribbean (laughs) and it just, I kind of operate from that point, from that stand point that, you know- - Well, you bring an enormous amount of life experience to your new job, but also I think all as you went along, but it is an interesting sort of convergence. - [Roland] Correct. - Because we, for many decades, have been more racially divided than we are now. - Correct. There we go, yeah. - Although, it's still, in society as a whole, a lot of divisions, a lot of it is geographic. - Yeah. - You know, Where we live and where we grow up and that kind, nobody says you have to live there, but you know, affinity. - Yeah. Yeah. - And in our community it was, there was a struggle, I think. - Still. - Just like there was between the men and the women. - Men and the women, yeah. - Still a bit of a struggle. Although I see it beginning to sort of come together as people care less about race. - Correct. - As there's more blending. - Correct, yeah. - But also I think the issue of coming out was always important. It was like the Latino community, I think you would tell me from your experience, needed to know how many of us were gay and lesbian. - Correct. Correct. - And that was hard, wasn't it? - Yeah. So I think that one, I think the many, the disappointment of many people, LGBT people of color was that we were raised in families that sometimes were supported, sometimes we were not. And we had this incredible ability to create extended families. And as we kind of probably could not rely too much on our biological families, we wanted to be accepted by the gay family. And that didn't quite happen in the way that we envision it because we share a common oppression and so forth. - Right. - So I think that was the dissonance. That was the contrast, that disappointed. And that's why you had to have a lot of ethnic organizations so we could create our own empowerment. - [Sheila] Right. - I think that my appointment is kinda timely in that sense that we can have it on, that we can have our own, you wanna call it identities, our own sense of being with who we are completely, but also use those experiences to connect to other people rather than to disconnect from other people. - Well, sometimes the experience of being marginalized, whether it's on the basis of race or sexual orientation, it's a strengthening thing in a way, because you become such a fighter. - Yes. - I mean, that's what I've seen from you as you've gone through the various areas that you've kind of lit up as you've gone, you know? - Exactly. Yeah, you had to have that space because those spaces do not exist. That's why women only spaces were so critical and it still are. The question is, is that the only space where we can make our contribution? The answer is yes and more. - Right. - Because those spaces still need to exist. We still need the Gay and Lesbian Center, we still need organizations like Equality California. The key is, are we going to connect our movement to other movements so we can see the commonalities rather than each one of us fighting separately for our own then. - Well, let's talk about the future in a minute, but let me sort of finish with the past, 'cause here you are at AIDS Healthcare Foundation. - [Roland] Yeah. - But it wasn't the last thing you did before this job. - Correct- - What happened next? - So I went and I was the executive director of a community clinic in Pico-Union, which mainly primarily serve Central American immigrants or Mexican immigrant. - And this was not related to the LGBT movement, right? - No, yeah. - So you were thinking, here's another part of my identity. - Yeah, exactly. - I need to do this too? - I never work, I never work in the Central American community. And for me it was almost like, kind of like finishing my father's revolution. It was a way to honor his struggle in Central America and that I wanted to do something for that community. And it was an amazing experience because I got to be an openly gay man in a primary Latino environment. And that work, especially now as we want people to be on our side, so to speak. I was able to transform and change a lot of people's perceptions as to who we are by my leadership. Because we went for like a million and a half to almost like 7 million. Went from serving 10,000, providing 10,000 visits to 40,000 visits. I got some real estate, some was an outright gift, another one I purchased and it really showed people what we as queer leaders can do, that, you know, and also were able to hire more LGBT, openly LGBT people. And this was in Pico-Union. This was right in the middle of Pico-Union. And certainly, I think that the leadership of the Central American community and also connecting with the Chicano establishment, so to speak. The clinic, it was quite a metaphor for where the Central American community was at that time. And this is 1999. It was in a basement. I used to call it the catacombs, because it was in the basement, no windows. And I said, no, we need to come out. (Sheila and Roland laughing) - Out of the basement. - Out of the basement, onto the streets, yeah. To the streets and we need to come out. And I think that that is such a strong concept for us in terms of visibility and coming out and claiming our dignity. And is no accident that a lot of the DREAM Act student movement, the undocumented students were, university students, that a lot of that leadership is queer, is LGBT youth because they understand coming out as a queer, as a gay person, LGBT person, but also like coming at as an undocumented immigrant. And they have so blended the concepts and the leadership in a way that is just unbelievably courageous. - Well, we found that actually more and more, I think, among young people who are taking leadership in so many of the different community activities and a lot in community organizing, not just political, but some unpolitical and more and more now, I think since Obama was elected. - [Roland] Yeah. - And young people went, oh, government can do things. Maybe we should think about government too. - [Roland] Exactly. - They're so wonderful. But one of the things I think about being an immigrant or being, I mean, unless you're afraid your family's gonna be hauled off, in which case you wanna feel that you should be silent. - Okay. - But so many outliers, like immigrants, like people of color, like people in the gay and lesbian community. It's kinda like, what can they do to me that hasn't already been done? - Correct. - You know, of course, I'm going to- - Fight back. - Be a little more, you know. - Yeah, yeah. Fight back. - Full of fight, yeah. - Yeah. No, absolutely. And I think that is, yeah, it is about connecting those fights. I think that we have to send a strong message that the divide and conquer age is done and over with. That we're gonna unite and conquer. - Good. - And, yeah. - So what came after the clinic? - So what came out of, after the clinic I went to The California Endowment, so senior program officer. So I was basically in charge of five counties in Southern California. And that was Santa Barbara, Ventura, L.A. County, Riverside and San Bernardino. - We should probably explain a little what The California Endowment- - Yeah, so The California Endowment is a foundation that was created by Blue Cross. Making long story, in California, if non-profit business wants to turn into a for-profit business, they have to give some of the tax price back to the community instead of to private investors, what a novel idea given taxpayers- - Reminds me of those movies, where you divide your evil half from your good half. So the health insurance company says, now we wanna be for profit. So we'll give money over here. - Yeah. - And these foundations will do the good. - Exactly. - We did. They're called conversion foundation. - Conversion foundation. - [Sheila] Right. - What was interesting about that fight is that they just wanted to give like a billion or something like that, making those story short because of advocate attorneys that we have, who are just amazing in terms of the public interest, even then, not being like a $4 billion endowment and that. - Right. - So I was one of the people basically providing funding for advocacy and services and all that kind of stuff. So which allowed me to prioritize certain communities and also, just to see how money works on the other side, what does it feel like to give money? And that's what I did. I went to L.A. Care Health Plan and I was the community benefits director there. And that's pretty much what I did, but so here we are. - So you were attracted sort of to the health field? - [Roland] Correct, correct. - That's interesting because it's a growing recognition. - [Roland] Correct. - By grassroots organizers who have been thinking in different ways, mostly about discrimination. - [Roland] Correct. - I find as a sort of an understanding that health is a big issue no matter what the community is. - [Roland] Exactly. - I mean, it's like the thing that threads us together. - Correct. Well, you know, a lot of things connects us. I think that we create this unnecessary disconnects that we're gonna have to deconstruct and put them back together. Look at marriage equality, for instance, that touches on access to healthcare. Chances are, if you're married that you can actually get healthcare insurance through your spouse. If you don't have that right, it really has not only an implication to your health, but also it's an economic justice issue because most of the bankruptcies nowadays are related to health. - Right. - So I think that we need to look at these issues a little bit like holographic. That they're embedded with a number of issues and it start kind of like connecting them to other movements, to other issues, to other populations instead of just seeing them as one thing, but reinforcing just the total integrity of what that issue is, like in civil, like marriage equality, civil marriage. There's so many embedded issues there that would allow us to connect to other communities and it still keep the integrity of why we're fighting for that. - Right. But it also means that we have to develop who we are too, because it's kind of like, I'm not everything, I'm kind of who I am. And I need to fully understand that. - [Roland] Correct. - Because there were so many really vibrant Latino organizations in our community. I think Bienestar, who I think you were- - Yeah. Well, Bienestar came out of Gay and Lesbian Latinos Unidos. Oscar de la O was one of the presidents of Gay and Lesbian Latinos Unidos. And that was one of the contributions that, that organization made, that it really developed the leadership for many people like Oscar, like Laura Esquivel, and so forth, yeah. - And I think other, were you, after The Endowment? - Yeah. - Did you go somewhere else? - Yeah. L.A. Care Health Plan- - The L.A. Care Health Plan, right. - But you know, one of the things (coughs) that I think is important is, in the past, we have always, we're everywhere, right? I mean, we're from everywhere and we're everywhere. We were in the United Farm Workers movement, we're in the feminist movement, we were in the healthcare movement, I mean, you name it. We were there. We were kind of closeted. What is so different now is that we're gonna go back and unite and connect these movements, but we're gonna do it openly. And that is a real distinction, kinda like what you were saying, as far as we also need to know who we are. - Right. - And what kind of leadership we're gonna bring to the table. - Right. - And I think that we are not going to be, we're gonna be subservient to XYZ each year, whatever. No, we're not a diversion to the movement. We're actually a strength to the movement. We actually represent all these movements. You can have like a ready-made population that is connected to so many things, so many issues. I mean, almost like you can even say it internationally. - Right. - I mean, we are a microcosm of the world. So I think that we are coming back to those movements and connect to those movements. But with that experience that we were able to get by having those safe spaces when they were none. - So tell us a little about Equality California these days. (Roland coughs) What drew you to it? - Yeah. - What you see there in terms of its strengths? - Well, it's gonna be very fascinating journey. (Sheila and Roland laughs) - You got- - A lot of work, Roland. - I, you know, a lot of people ask me, why do you wanna do this to yourself? Because it is hard. It's tough. But so many people, many, many, many more people encouraged me to do this. And certainly, I wanted to do it. I think that we have real possibility of creating a very, very strong, civil rights movement that can, you know, help to transform the conversation of who we are as LGBT people, going from being a marginalized minority to being a community contribution. And I really feel that I have that passion to do that, somewhat the patience. Certainly, there's a lot in my personal story and history, but also in my professional endeavors in terms of running multimillion dollar organizations and the networks that I have. So I think is, and I want, also, I think is I love, I just love the idea of connecting movements, including within our own communities. 'Cause we're not a connected movement. - [Sheila] Right. - We're not as intersected as we need to be. - Oh, what's interesting to me because there's been a discussion over the past decade about what people called identity politics and the question really was, is this still the best way to do it? - Yeah. - Because in the 14 years that I was in Sacramento, almost everyone who came to talk to me, were either in the labor movement, 'cause of course, I'm a Democrat. - [Roland] Yeah. - Or in an issue movement. Or sometimes as we used to say in a disease movement, a particular kind of that's my disease. - That's my, whatever. - That's my disease and that's my disease and that's my disease. And there were not the strongest sets of advocacy. - Correct. - By identity politics kind of groups, except for Equality California, because we were fighting and for the DREAM Act for immigrants. - [Roland] Correct. - We had some identity politics around that. But not strong, always the strongest organizations. So how do you see Equality California? I mean, everybody's talking marriage, but is there, and it's gotten to the governor twice, or maybe just once, but you know, Schwarzenegger, once, he'd go for it. - He saw in the marriage system- - But he's gone, yeah. - And his marriage is gone too. - And his marriage is gone too, right? Oh, listen, I don't even feel good about that even though I always felt sorry for Maria, what can I say? But do you see that this is still a good approach for us to say, we are an LGBT movement, and this is, we're the last ones on the bus for marriage. This is what we need. And maybe some other things? - Yeah, no, no. I think that marriage is definitely a defining issue for us at this moment. But like I mentioned before, there's so many embedded issues in that civil right. Certainly immigration, there are many, there are, I don't know, 35, 40,000 couples in the same sex couples in the U.S. who cannot get their, you know, can be legalized because they can't get married to their same gender partner. So the issue of health insurance, economic justice, all the benefits, the economic benefits that come from that. - [Sheila] Right. - And just dignity, just dignity to know that we have the same rights like everybody else, But that is, it has a lot of components to that. There're also issues of our youth. That in itself has a lot of embedded issues in that. So I think that we need to start looking at this with its population or specific issue in a way that the tentacles, or I don't wanna call it there, but you know, just what they relate to is bigger than just the way we have probably been framing them. And I think that will take care of, I am not totally against identity politics. I think that's been very helpful for us to do that because even though we call it identity politics, it was really a safe space to be who we could not be outside of that community. But like everything else, it has its own limitations. And I would like to, for me, I wanna redefine it, that is that identity, that ability to have created a safe space that allows me to connect to somebody else who also did that for themselves. And that we find that commonality. So it is not a limiting thing, but it's an expansive thing. - Well, I think that's true. And I also found it a kind of an interpreter job in a way. - Exactly. - Because since I was the first open gay or lesbian person elected to the legislature, I had a translation issue sort of with them because even the supportive ones. - You were the ambassador. Yeah. You were the ambassador. - You know, I was in their world. I was of their world. - [Roland] Correct. - And yet I was a person who had a different sexuality from it. And then in my communities where they had never been at the table at that table. - Yeah. - It was also important to remain connected. - [Roland] Correct. Absolutely. - And understanding of that. And people who were saying all I care about in the whole universe is that I don't get beat up at school. - [Roland] Correct. Correct. - And I'm sorry. I know there's a lot of other stuff going on, but that's- - Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. - Terrifying for me every day. So if I would bring a bill about protecting kids at school from being beat up, I would also be talking to the community about a slightly larger set of issues that other people had, like immigration issues et cetera. - Exactly. And I think you're perfectly poised to be that kind of interpreter really. - Yeah, and you know, we're queer. We can multitask. (Sheila and Roland laughs) We can really have, because when you think about, it's just really exploring all our identities, right? - [Sheila] Right. - I'm into my mid '50s, that's a whole different population. I'm an immigrant, that's a different identity. I live in Los Feliz. That's a totally different, I have an extended family, my LGBT world, that's a different identity. I mean, it goes on and on. I just think it's exploring all those identities and how do we use that to connect to a larger world. And that's a big world when you really think about all the identities that we have and how we use that to connect to a network world that also kind of thinks about itself in that way. - It's mentioning extended families reminded me, there was, the census has actually revealed a lot of very interesting data. And for simply- - Yesterday there was an article in the L.A. Times front page. - Right, I mean, since we live in California. - Front page. - We're thinking of that, but I know this is true in many other states as well, that they'll find from the census. But the interesting thing to me was that they said that about 23% of the families in California were living in what we used to call a nuclear family situation. - Mother, father, children. - Mother, father, children. - Yeah. - And that Orange county, which is one of our most more conservative counties for those of you outside the state, they were much more traditional. - Because of- - They had 26% of their families. - Correct. - Which is not that high compared to- - 23% of the whole state. - Yeah. It's not that- - 26% were nuclear families in Orange County. So it's kind of like that 3% different to me doesn't make them- - But you know- - So much more traditional, you know. - Most of it was, because of Vietnamese. - Right. - Mexicans and other Latinos, other Asian groups, Indians from India. So it wasn't really the quote and quote, yeah. - No, but it's, they could live in nuclear families, but that's not the tradition. - Correct. - Tradition is much more expansive. - Exactly. Yeah. - Just the way it was when I was a kid because my mother was the first one born in the United States from her family. So it was very natural. Her sisters were gonna move in with us when they needed a place to live. My dad's mother lived with us, you know, and it's also a class thing too. - Yeah, I think it's also like in the end, kids are serve much better when they have an extended family. I mean, to put an entire responsibility on two people to raise two human beings were very, very complex. I think that that to me, radical or not, it really is a formula for breakdowns. - Well, but in our community. We haven't always had that choice with our blood families. - Correct. - Cause us often, as you know, they don't don't necessarily approve of our relationship. - No, still don't- - We always say I think it's very, very lucky if they do. You know, you talk to someone and it's like, your parents came to your wedding. - I know. - It's so wonderful. - [Roland] That's the exception to the rule. - But we've always sort of been part of chosen families. It's a privileged. - What tribes? We have that tribe mentality. - Yeah. - We still, you know, remember that one of our roles specially in indigenous communities throughout the America, we were the shamans, the two-spirited people, this whole thing of just having the husband and wife and two kids and it was more of a communal thing. And we really also talk about being an ambassador, we translated the spiritual world to the, I guess, three dimensional, concrete, material world, I guess you can call it. So this, we always had an expansive notion of things. - Well, we were always outsiders too. I mean, in a way it was not really a chosen rule. - Correct. - It was sort of like, well, since you're gonna give me lemons, I'm gonna make some lemonade here. - Correct. - And as an outsider, I'll be a revolutionary, I'll be a mystic, I'll be a spiritual person. I'll be, you know, George Furth throws a whole musical company about that, about a gay man who is the best friend to a set of couples. And the third wheel, as it were. - [Roland] Got it. - It was a very sort of interesting approach because it gives us a power as outliers, I think. - Well, you know, it was kind of a different story here in the Americas. There was more of a heterogeneous treatment of the third sex or however they were defined. And a lot of these has one of the first things that the Europeans did when they came to the U.S., it was the most threatening thing for them to see anything queer. And it was the first things that they destroyed. And by destroying that, they literally destroyed the soul of the tribes. That was kind of like the anchor. You still see, like in Mexico, like there is this place called Juchitán in Oaxaca, Mexico, very matriarchal, lot of openly gay people, many of them transgenders. It's got some of these westernized kind of aspect. So there's that whole notion in there, but you can see traces of this that, you know, just groupings that refuse to be totally absorbed even after 500 plus years. So I think it's important to recognize that in some ways, I mean this one itself where we're sitting now, there were probably a lot of queer people here that were here and in some ways is no accident that L.A. is one of the epicenters of the LGBT movement because this land is kind of like clamoring for queer justice. - Well, and in addition, any authoritarian body, when you talk about the Europeans coming in, what they did to indigenous people here, any authoritarian body doesn't want variation. - [Roland] Correct. Correct. - They want purity, they want adherence. - Exactly, correct. - They want, well, fascism really means. - They want a norm. - Upon little sticks cut it the same length. - They want a norm that it can be controlling- - Right. And so even today, the right wing, it uses us as a kind of foil for them. But it makes a lot of sense. - It's an industry. - Because as soon as you, well, but as soon as you deviate from the norm, it's a threat to authoritarian any things. - Absolutely. - And I like being a threat, Do you? - And that's good news. - Yeah. Exactly. - [Roland] That's good news. - So what do you have planned for us in the future here? I know you just started but- - In terms- Oh, you mean in terms of Equality California? - What do you see coming? Well, Equality California or the- - You know, I think we have a lot of challenges ahead of us. I think that trying to like figure out our own priorities, our own issues and how we're gonna go about it. We have the, you know, how Prop 8 is an open wound in our community. Many people were disillusioned by the fact that we lost that at the ballot. There is the court, the lawsuit going on that hopefully will have success on that front. So there is a little bit of an on decision as to what to do in many ways. And I think it's gonna be very tough to test things out and to look at how do we approach that particular issue. But also I think it could be an exciting conversation that depending on how many levels we talk about it, can really help us to provide some new life as to where we should take the movement. - And do you think states can really help by, because really until there's sort of a national recognition and a national law for everybody, states are doing this kinda one at a time, and they've got, they're doing so many kinds- - New York, that we speak, we might walk out of this. - And see that they got that one vote, right. - Exactly. - But still, do you think it's important for states to do their thing? Because it doesn't really, does it impact the national? - Well, I think that we have to fight it at both fronts. I think that we have to fight it at a national level and the state level, because we don't know which one is really gonna be in the end, the winning formula. I also think that the more states do it, the more of a critical mass and a momentum that we build. So I don't think that these are necessarily wasted efforts by any stretch of imagination. I think that we might wanna do a better job of connecting things and supporting each other's movements kind of thing. But overall, I think that we should fight it in every single front that we can fight it on. - So what's the most important thing to you to see in this state or in this country either for our community or not? - In terms of activism? - Well, yeah, it's an open ended question. I'm just kind trying to see, 'cause I know that you, we've heard the whole sort of line of your life and it's really a social justice line. - [Roland] Correct. - And it's unfinished work in not just in the LGBT movement. - [Roland] Yeah. - What would you like to see in the next, say 10 years happen in this state or this country? - I would like us to see how powerful we are as LGBT people and how amazingly powerful we are to really claim everything that we have by heritage, the diversity that we have, but everything that we have by what we have done. This is one of the most exciting civil rights movements because it encompasses so many different people from so many walks of life. Clearly, we owe a lot to the feminist movement, to the Black liberation movement, but we're also, acknowledging that and taking it in different ways. And I think that once we acknowledge our individual and community power and keep the eye on the price. I would like to see equality be not only an external concept, but an internal concept, that it really is the principle that drives our movement, that we will want to break down all our internal barriers. So we can speak with one voice, which is that symmetry, that consistency, which I think will be incredibly powerful. - Well, it's interesting the word integrity really comes from wholeness in the integer, you know. - Wholeness. Exactly, exactly. - Integrated. - Exactly, integrated. - Yeah, and that's been hard for LGBT people because a lot of times, especially being in the closet, you would be everybody that you were except for that person. - Exactly. - Which limited everything you were doing. - Yeah, yeah. - I mean so many people I know when they come out, they're very frightened. But they universally say that they feel so much free or they can be who they are. - Exactly, exactly. - This job must be hard on your personal life too. I mean, it's, (Roland laughs) you have to go up to Sacramento. Do you have to live up there? - No, I will be based in Los Angeles, but I will be traveling throughout the state, which I, yeah, I've been rather provincial after this point. I'm very L.A. based. I love the weather here. I love the people and try to avoid the traffic. (Sheila laughs) - Forget that. - But I'm really excited about the prospects of meeting new people, but also the prospects of creating new ideas, finding new synergies. This is gonna be, for me, personally, I think it's gonna be very rewarding. Also, very trying this as optimistic as I am, I think that there would be tremendous challenges. And I'm walking into a situation where our movement is not as connected, as united and there's a lot of fragmentation, but I'm very excited by the possibility. So what we can all bring together. And like I said, if we have equality as an internal principle and start removing those barriers. I mean, there are layers and layers of disempowerment that we had to get rid of. And as we do that in a very conscious and a very intentional way, we're gonna be a movement to be reckoned with. The right wing will have nothing on us. - So if there's one thing you could tell our viewers in the last couple of minutes that you would like them to do. - Yes, yeah. - Or two things, what would it be? - Well, I certainly, would like to ask for their support. Equality California is gonna need your support. I would like them to reflect a little bit on some of the things that you and I talked about in terms of how do we make equality a concept that lives in our personal lives, in our community lives in addition to wanted to live outside of our communities as well. To really do a deep reflection on just the symmetry and the integrity that comes with that and just get involved. We cannot outsource our liberation. We cannot outsource our freedom and we cannot outsource our dignity. - Roland, thank you so much. The perfect closing. - Thank you. - I'm really, really glad that you will be at Equality California. We all wish you the best and hopefully, people will get the message. - Yes. - And know how important it is to support. - Thank you, Sheila. - I'm really glad that you were with us for the hour. And remember- - You always been such a champion. - Oh, well. Thank you, Roland. - You have such tremendous respect. And you're one of my, to call people. I have you on speed dial. So I nailed that. (Sheila laughs) - Just to be your friend is enough right now. It's really good. (Roland laughs) 'Cause you're going places, man. You know. - I hope so. Anyway, thank being with us. - We're going places. - And as Roland said, equality is a concept that's within as well as without, so get used to it. (bright music)