Get Used to It: Ep. 155, "Preserving Our History"

(upbeat music) - Hi, welcome to Get Used To It. I'm Sheila Kuehl, and as usual, I'm going to guide you through this hour of fascinating information. And, although I guess all information is not fascinating today. We do have a fascinating show because we're talking about history. It just so happens in LA, and I know some of you are not in LA, but it's the same wherever you are. Gay and lesbian history has been hidden, has been virtually invisible. And my three guests today have been involved recently and over time in trying to make sure that we gather and maintain the long history of the gay and lesbian movement, not only here in LA, but throughout the state and to some extent in the country. So I'm very pleased to welcome my three guests, Tom DeSimone, who's a co-founder of Roots of Equality, and one of the presenters of a wonderful exhibit that was in Los Angeles. Welcome Tom. - Thank you. - My second guest, Melissa Lopez, also a a co-founder of one of about seven or eight, I think, of Roots of Equality, and one of the presenters of the exhibit that opened and closed in LA. And my third guest is Angela Brinskele who is the director of communications for the June Mazer Lesbian Archives, which have recently entered into a collaboration with UCLA here in Los Angeles. So welcome all three, Tom, let me start with you. It was interesting to me, sort of the juxtaposition here in this city, and I see it kind of arising interest nationally in our history. So much was lost and then milk comes out and everybody says, oh, I knew about him, but I had no idea. Tell me a little bit about how you and how Roots of Equality got interested in gathering and presenting some of the history of our community. - Well, we were motivated in large part because of Proposition 8. And I think that Prop 8 really mobilized our generation. There seems to have been a sort of sleepy period in the LGBT movement. And there's probably a number of factors for that, but I think that this really, in a way, the right-wing kind of mobilized a whole new movement, a whole new generation of activists. And so we participated in many of the rallies and protests and actions that took place before and after Prop 8. But one of the things we noticed was people our age have no sense of our history, and we don't usually come from families that are LGBT or even sometimes LGBT friendly. And the school system certainly doesn't teach our history. So we really have to pass it on to one another. And so we realized that gap, and I think living in Los Angeles, we realized that history in this city to begin with is a little bit underrepresented and under reported. And so we wanted to bring that to life and we read Lillian Faderman and Stuart Timmons books, "Gay LA," and it really inspired us to this incredible history that is here in this city. And we wanted to bring that to life for people of a younger generation and also for the people who led the way for us. And to show that that how instrumental they were in bringing us to where we are today. - Well, tell us a little bit about Roots of Equality, because when you said, well, we were one of seven or eight people who brought it together and Prop 8, of course, I think people know was the California initiative, which put it in the California constitution, that there could not be same gender marriage in California, because there have been other propositions across the country that have all of which I think have pretty much gone the same way, 'cause where we do have marriage, we have it because of a legislature or a court. But it was an unusual wave of activism from I think from your generation. - Yeah. - How did Roots of Equality get started? - Well, we had our first activity before the election. And myself, I was working at some of the phone banks and I was trying to rope my cousin, Melissa, in who wasn't necessarily the interested in phone banking. And so she came to the campaign office and they kind of told her that if she didn't wanna phone bank, there really wasn't a role for her. And we were frustrated by that as many young people were and we felt that there were a lot of other resources that could be tapped for our our cause. And so we organized a little rally in Pershing Square in a matter of a couple weeks, and we invited friends and put it out on the internet. And we had 500 people turn out, which was really a surprise to us. And we did this because at City Hall, just a few blocks away here in Los Angeles, there was a pro Prop 8 rally with many members from different ethnic communities who were saying that that ethnic voters were solidly yes on 8. And we felt... - Which would mean against gay marriage? - Exactly. - Right. - And so we felt that we didn't need to cause a fight at this rally, but we felt there needed to be a counter balance to this. And so we put together this rally and we were able to get on the Evening News, which we thought was really important because I think part of the reason we lost was that our voice wasn't being heard, and we were really being overshadowed by our opposition. And so we put this rally together and we're surprised at how successful it was. And I think it showed to us that a little idea can actually turn into something that has some feet to it. And when we look back at our history, it's really remarkable how many things started with just a handful of people who had a little idea that might have been a little crazy and something significant happened. (laughs) - Or had been a little angry because of something happening and sort of decided, I'm mad as hell and I'm not gonna take it anymore. But those are turning points, really. Not just in the history of the community and of a particular city, but as we'll go on and talk about some of what you did in the exhibit. I mean, finding out that the first fight back from a set of drag queens and gay men, was not indeed at Stonewall, but actually here. Very, very interesting exhibit, but you actually, what made you think of getting a place and how did you then sort of put the history exhibit together? - Right. Well, we started doing some of our research and we saw a story arc forming and we realized that in the late 18 hundreds, early 19 hundreds, the LGBT community wasn't necessarily demonized. Now we certainly weren't out, and we weren't getting patted on the back by any means. I don't wanna over glamorize it, but gender expression was allowed to kind of play out in forms of entertainment and so forth. And so we started to see that there was actually a time of some hope before society sort of snapped back and the police entrapment started, and legislation started, and censorship in the entertainment industry started, there was a conservative era that came in the teens, twenties, thirties, leading up to the war. And then we saw right after the war, how so many LGBT people came through the ports and they started to settle in these cities. And a movement started to build. And people started to realize, oh, there's other people like me out there. And they started meeting one another and forming organizations and taking to action. And so we really saw that these pieces of a puzzle started to fit together. And that one thing builds on another, and really we're on that puzzle piece today, continuing our movement. - But what made you decide to actually sort of physicalize it? Because, Lillian and Stewart wrote a book about "Gay La," it was out, everybody has access to it. Why choose a place to gather, to show our history? - I think that people need, we live in an era of visual and immediate gratification. And even though our exhibit you could say is primitive in that it's images and some video hanging on a wall, it brings it to life in a way that you don't necessarily get in a book. And unfortunately not everyone reads today to get their information and their history like they used to. And so we thought if we can make it sort of bite sized and accessible and visual and stimulating, we can start to get that history out there. And then maybe people might go and pick up that book and delve a little deeper into it. - Well, there's also a communal aspect to it. - Yeah. - I mean, when you actually go to an exhibit, or you go to a museum, or you go to a place where something happened in the company of other people, it becomes more like living history. And of course the programming that you decided to do with it, where something was happening every night during the time of the exhibit, I think is also a way to bring people in. - Yeah. - So how did you assemble the different art, not artifacts, but, well, I guess they are kind of artifacts for the exhibit? - We, the first place we went to were some of the history books to kind of fit the pieces together. And then we realized the tremendous resources we have here at least in this city with the One Archives and the Mazer Lesbian Archives, our public library has an incredible collection of photographs that are sort of hidden in there to a degree that have started to surface, as people have started doing research. And so we started to go to those sources and then we realized that the items in these archives and in the library are provided by just regular folks. And so we started going to some of these regular folks and they would tell us their stories and some of them would have photos to give us. And many people haven't kept those things, sadly, because they don't think that they're important. Your high school year book picture, or a family photo, it's really remarkable how little things that you don't think are that important are important and people should continue giving it to the archive. So we can continue to do exhibits like this and preserve our history. - That's a good lesson for you too. - Yeah, - Because I can tell you when I was in my twenties, Nothing would occur to me about saving anything that I was doing as though it were history, you know, flyer from something or whatever, you didn't didn't think about it. - Yeah. - Well, Melissa, what was your experience in getting involved or wanting to get involved in, even before you help to put together Roots of Equality? What drove you to feel like you needed to do something? - Well, like Tom was saying about the Prop 8 election, I went to the office many times and said, I wanna help. I wanna go knock on doors. I wanna go do something. And there really wasn't anything other than calling people to do and give money. And I gave some money and I didn't really wanna call anybody. So I felt like I had no voice. There was no, I mean, I talked to my friends and my family and things like that, but somehow doing our rally and what happened with Prop 8 basically never again, will I be saying, fine, okay, I won't do anything then. I will go out and figure out something else to do, whether or not a campaign tells me to do or whatever. - Well, I think it's been interesting. A lot of people have been saying, wow, this younger generation, they're just something about them because it's a funny combination of not hating government, the way former sort of radical organizers really did because government was not much of a help to us, which may be a different these days. 'Cause in some ways, some of our governments have been help to us, but it seems like a big step from saying, I wanna do something to, I wanna know my history. How did that come up for you? - Tom was, we call him like the mastermind of this project. (Tom laughing) But we, everyone in our group, we love like reading and watching documentaries. And I think we already have quite a passion for history. And when we got a little taste of what Los Angeles has to offer, we wanted to learn more. I mean, I have totally enjoyed doing this history, like research type thing. I think I could do that all day long, I really enjoy it. - Did you get to talk to some of the folks that like Tom was talking about, who had stuff? - Oh yeah, yeah, no, I, it was really neat to actually sit down and go through their stuff or just hear stories. And we picked a timeframe where our exhibit goes up to Stonewall. So there's a ton of people that we talked to that were very active after Stonewall in 1969 that I wanna spend time and hear more from them too. We just didn't have time, so. - Does any particular story or person stick out in your mind that you talked to, or? - There's a woman, Nancy Valverde, who was really terrorized, I would say, throughout the forties, fifties, I would say. She just was a Butch woman who wore pants and walked down the street and got arrested almost every weekend. And I just can't even imagine something like that. I mean, I really don't wear guy's clothes, I mean, girls clothes very often, I wear guy's clothes almost all the time and people like her is why that's possible. So. - Well, we had several people have been on the shows here over the past, I don't know, 15, 20 years. And the women who founded Catch One were on the show and told us stories about leaving their homes dressed in their high school girl clothes, or whatever post high school, but in the car, they had their guy clothes. And so they would drive and stop and change, and go to these sort of secret clubs. But the interesting thing, many interesting things about the exhibit you guys put together was sort of the story arc, because as Tom said, it starts out with a more open time. Were you surprised by that? - Yeah, I mean I didn't really know much about different movies in the thirties and the twenties where women kissed each other on the screen and things like that. I mean, I just thought that was really neat. And then to learn about how terrible everything was, I mean, all the different laws and terrible, like getting committed into mental institutions and stuff. So it just seemed like such a contrast from letting people live, at least some of how they are, let them be who they are to totally trying to squash out any expression and who they are. And in the midst of that, then starting to build a community is just amazing, which is really inspiring. - Well, it's interesting to look at the exhibit as you guys mounted it. Although, it's really the same if you look at the timeline for our community here or really in any country. Although, some countries they're still at that you can get arrested and committed kind of part of the timeline. But what do you take away personally in a way from that? I mean, I guess one of the things I wonder always is, so what, so now we know our history, what does that do for us? - Well, I mean, for me, it's a huge inspiration to, when I first came out, I felt like there were no gay people before me, no queer people before me. And to know that not only were there a lot, they did a lot and were in face of terrible things. And the little things that I've had to deal with, aren't much when I can see where they've been. And just, I'm very close to my family, my grandmothers, and I love to hear their stories and what did they do when they were growing up and all that stuff. And it makes me feel connected. And so hearing about the different LGBT people, in the twenties and thirties and what their lives were like, it makes me feel connected to that part of my family, my other family. - Well, there's been a lot more interest lately since I guess I'm a senior now. (Melissa laughing) And being invited to sort of senior junior dialogues, I guess. And they're real dialogues because I think my generation though we went through a lot of activism and we participated somewhat accidentally in starting a lot of things, just sort of, I'm not gonna take this anymore sort of feeling. But I think they have, that we have, a good deal to learn from you as well. The thing that impressed me was how you reached out for it. It wasn't like, we're gonna wait to see if there's a history day somewhere. - Yeah. It's not gonna happen. - Right. I think that's what we learned from the history that, you have an idea, just go for it. Don't wait around. And I learned that with Prop 8 too, don't wait around, do your own thing. - Did you also get a sense of the sort of fragility of freedom or? When I was looking at those walls and walking around the exhibit, it just I'm certain that people who were just living their lives, it was sort of like pre-AIDS gay society. - Yeah. - Where you just had no idea the hammer was about to fall. And it sort of made me think about how fragile freedoms can be, how they're taken away and you don't even know that's gonna happen. We have a new police chief in LA and we had a whole lot of different police chiefs, and they had different attitudes about this. Though not too different at the beginning. Were you surprised about the shackles and the jailing and everything? - I was, I mean, I really, I didn't know so much. I mean, I'd had an idea maybe, but I mean, to really. I was able to spend a lot of time going to different archives 'cause I'm a teacher. So I had August off and I spent the whole month reading articles and looking at articles. And I mean, it was just one after another, after another of people getting arrested and, put in the hospitals and just whole lives ruined, fired from jobs and things like that. And had no idea. - Well, and it's a larger history too, of this sense of where it was considered such a mental aberration, that it actually was treated as a mental disease. And then to have Evelyn Hooker and others work on developing the whole approach that no, this is not a mental disease. This is really political repression. And it really changes a lot, even just the role of the individual. Angela, I was thinking too, in the Mazer collection, it's a lot about that. Sort of how the people who were engaged in any of this change, themselves made a difference. Tell us a little bit about the Mazer archives. - Well, it was founded in 1981 in Oakland, and some women got together to find lesbian history and couldn't find it. So they decided that if they didn't start collecting and protecting it, nobody would. And they founded what was called the West Coast Lesbian Collections then. Later on, it was moved down to Southern California through a lesbian organization called Connexus, and Bunny MacCulloch and June Mazer. And once it got down here, it eventually was moved into a building in West Hollywood, where west Hollywood has provided free rent the entire time we've been there. And I think that's really helped our longevity, but then it was named, and once June Mazer died, it was renamed the June Mazer Lesbian Archives. - What kind of materials are in the archives? - It's really a crazy mix of materials when you really think about it. I mean, we have June Mazer's Birkenstocks. (all laughing) And we have a really serious studies papers and lawsuits lesbians have been through. We have a Naval lawsuit and all kinds of different legal papers of personal people who have had struggles and had lawsuits for something related to there being a lesbian. We have a huge arrangement of feminist information also because lesbian and feminist history overlaps so thoroughly, it's hard not to have both, but it was started as a lesbian and feminist archive originally. - So what kinds of materials are are in it? Are there newspapers, or mimeograph flyers, or programs, or what? - We have a really wide range of stuff. We have all kinds of posters from way back, sixties, seventies. We have subject files that people have clipped in the community for at least three decades. And we have periodicals, many times we have complete collections of say the lesbian tide or the lesbian news. We have a complete collection of those kinds of periodicals, but then we have personal collections too, that are kind of my favorite thing in the archives, which is just a woman who donated her personal papers, her photos, her photo albums, maybe some cassettes of herself talking or being interviewed for some reason as a teacher or a social worker. And then in that same collection, they might have some of their professional work too, papers as social worker, but it's really a wide array of things. - You've also had papers donated by individuals, writers, et cetera? - Yeah, definitely. In fact, one of the newer discoveries that's been in the Mazer a long time was Elizabeth Gould Davis who wrote "The First Sex." We have an unpublished manuscript that we believe is her sequel to that book. - Wow. - And we think it's the only one in existence because as with many lesbians, especially in the past, we've been told that her family destroyed everything of hers when she died. So we believe it's the only one left. - Wow. So what does the new collaboration with UCLA do for the Mazer Archives? - We're really excited about that because we had space issues, where we didn't have enough space for all the collections and we have books and things that are in storage now. And it really solves a lot of our problems with getting collections processed in a timely manner because the Mazer Archives, we don't do our own processing. We've had interns and we've had grants to get collections processed in the past. - And does process mean cataloging them somehow, so that, may I add, I'm not a librarian or I guess a Siberian now. - Yeah it... - What does that mean? - It actually does mean cataloging, organizing them. And then actually making them more accessible by putting finding aids on the web, maybe digitizing them, so that people can go quickly and find out everything in that collection right away. - So can people go on the web and find the Mazer Archives and begin to know what's in it, or is it in process or? - Well, as far as the UCLA collaboration, that was very recent. So there are five collections that are now housed at UCLA, and we will always have a Mazer Archives now at UCLA. And those collections have been processed. And yeah, online, you can get a link from our website to the UCLA link, which will get you into the Mazer Archives there, and all the finding aids, you can look up some digital photos from collections like SCWU, Southern California Women for understanding, which was a long successful lesbian organization here. - Without the word lesbian in its title for many, many years, as I recall. - Yeah, actually, they were well known for having a huge amount of their members being closeted, but yet they were politically active at the same time. - Right. - So really interesting group. - Well, it was an interesting time. (laughs) - [Angela Brinskele] Yeah. Absolutely. - So what drew you to this work? - Well, I heard Melissa say something that reminded me of myself in some way, where I thought I was the only one. In 1977, when I already had long known I was a lesbian. I was absolutely certain I was a lesbian and I was absolutely certain I was the only one on the planet. And so by the time I got in college and became a photographer, I didn't even know why I was doing this, but I was driven to document lesbians in their lives through photography, as much as I possibly could. And so after 25 years of doing that and running into people from the Mazer everywhere, they invited me to join the archives and be on the board. So that's really how I got started. - So you're their communications director as a board member, or is it your work, or photography is still your work, or both? - Oh yeah, actually a combination of all of that, because I do work with the photographs at the Mazer, but I am also a board member and I'm also their first paid employee ever. They have always had completely volunteer staff, and I was a volunteer staff member for about three years when they decided that they needed a paid staff member and they decided to do that. So I work for them two days a week, and strictly don't do any work outside of those two days. - Of course, well I'm interested. I'm always interested in the why of things. When you said you were driven. I'm not sure if that was your word, but that you wanted to as a photographer, document some lesbians lives, the whole theme, I guess, for today is kind of why do we preserve these truths or these facts, what's it for? - Well, you know, I often give people a really basic general answer to this because people will come and say, why is this history so important to you? Because they see my passion for it. And I say to them, if you're gonna go someplace, you've never been, why would you leave the house without a map? Because why not get in your car and just drive and hope you'll get there? (Sheila Kuehl laughing) And when you say it like that, it sounds crazy to not use the experience of people who have come before you to get to where you're going or where you wanna go. And so that's the best answer I could give, I guess. - So is it, it's a relief to find out you're not the only lesbian on the planet. (all laughing) - Oh my God, yeah. - I mean, that's not even a question because I mean, in 1959, I went through exactly the same thing. It just seemed like I'd never heard of it, except that it was supposed to be wrong. I don't know, even know how I knew that. But do you actually learn from history? - Oh, I think absolutely. I think not only do you learn from it, but you can be empowered by it and inspired by it as Melissa has said too. And I think it's extremely inspiring and it gives you a direction too in your life. - Well, I know we do admire other people. I'm going to out Tom, because it was announced at one of the events during Lavender LA Exhibit, that he had saved all the phone messages from William Fairman. So tell, let's talk about that. I really wanna, I understand it for myself, but because my understanding of gay and lesbian history came so much later in my life. I'm not certain what it would be like to be in my twenties and be exposed to it, or even as you have demand to be exposed to it, what have you, how has that helped you if it does? - I think it shows us how much we have to be grateful for. How incredibly scary it was for people to have to face the world and not know there was anyone, as Angela said, and as you said yourself, so many people struggled individually trying to figure out who they were. And there was nowhere to go. There was no community, there was just nothing. There was a world of emptiness. And for people of our generation, I personally don't know anyone who's had to struggle quite like that. And it's just, it's almost like night and day. And we have so much work to still do, but to go back and to see the struggle and how much had to be done and overcome for us to be where we are today, is really remarkable. And it really gives us pause as we continue to move forward and we still have so much to do. - But what about marriage? I mean, we're not getting it, has it changed a lot, when you think of it? - I think one of the reasons why I thought this exhibit was so important is that marriage is important. I was able to get married and I'm happy that I was, but I think that if we only focus on marriage, it's very narrow and we have this huge community. And, there's a lot of other things that we can be thankful for and growing together with, and building the community about. And, not that we're gonna forget about marriage and not fight for it, but there's so much we can be doing right now, whether or not we have marriage. And so that was one of the things that I was really interested in, is getting beyond marriage kind of. - I think it's fascinating that in the archives, we actually have lesbians historically documented that got married. It's like, they didn't care if it was legal or not, we're gonna do it anyway. - Yeah. - And we have all kinds of documentation of that in the sixties, the seventies, way back when there was, people had no hope particularly back then. - You don't need a piece of paper, or government, or somebody to tell you that you're gonna be together for life and you're dedicated to each other like that. - Right. - Yeah. - And that's what I think is part of the takeaway, is how bold people were. I mean, you talk about, it's still courageous to come out, even if you have an accepting family and a network of friends and supporters, but to come out in any time before the 1950s, when a real consciousness started to form was a truly revolutionary thing to do as an individual and in society. And so the level of boldness to take away is just, it really, really gives you pause. - Well, it was interesting what you said about the earlier times. It wasn't all of that free, but there just wasn't as much sort of anguish over whether you were straight or gay or bisexual or lesbian, or. It was just seemed more open. Now, of course, in the twenties and even getting into the thirties, society itself seemed to be more open. I'm sure there was a lot of shock and awe in the older generation that, I mean, jazz itself was my experience, it was with rock and roll where they thought it was going to completely ruin society. And I'm sure jazz was like that too. But the jazz age was a very open age, I think sexually. And then we see this clamping down on it, which we always thought was, if you take power over people, that's how you take power. So do you see the, I mean, do you see, it could go either way with us today, again. Sort of a theme that I was thinking while you were talking is what do you learn from history? - I think in the archives, what I find amazing is these women in the seventies talk about, we've got like Bunny MacCulloch, for example, who ran the archives for a very long time, is interviewed and she says, we've gotta have this history everywhere. We can't just have it in one place because they'll take it away and they'll destroy it. And she's talking in 1986. And so that's another very specific reason why people are very afraid of this even today, I think. 'Cause they know what's happened before. People that are aware of history, know what can happen in the future by studying the history. - Well, how important is access too? I think doing an exhibit, making this be more accessible, I guess, because now it's at the university, the one Institute's at the university of Southern California, how important is that? - Oh totally. I mean, absolutely important. I mean, going to the different libraries and the archives. It's kind of a lot of work to go, and find out where things are, and go through files and pictures and stuff. But the more exhibits there are, the more just shows of some sort, then more people will have access to it and more people will know this stuff, and be interested to go and through the files and the pictures and all that sort of thing, which is exciting. - A really big condition of our collaboration with UCLA was that there had to be accessibility. It had to stay in Los Angeles and it had to be accessible all the time. And we actually are one of the, in that condition, we are able to take the collection back if accessibility is denied. So that's how important it is to the archives. - But why is it important? I mean, we sort of have this bottom line feeling well, everybody ought to know it, but tell me what you think comes from that? - Well, I think you alluded to something earlier that we didn't just wait for someone to tell it to us and give it to us. And I think that's kind of what goes back to why it needs to be accessible because there will a time when someone or some organization wants to find this out or wants to share these stories and make them available, and having that accessibility, it makes it so much more democratic. Anyone can have access to it because it's all of our history, it belongs to all of us. And I think that's really important. And I think what the Mazer's been able to accomplish at UCI is tremendous. - I think it's even stronger sometimes, I think it actually saves lives to have this accessible to people. I feel like I would not be here today without this history, without the knowledge of this history. I was trying to create it myself by taking pictures of lesbians everywhere I could go, they thought I was a stalker a lot of the time. (all laughing) But I was really just trying to document this history that I never knew was there. And I still didn't know it existed until I joined the Mazer. So I think it saves lives. I think I would not be here today if it weren't for the history that I found. And I also think I know more about who I am because I know who came before me. So I think it's extremely important. - Oh yeah, I would totally piggyback on what you're saying. I'm a marriage and family therapist and I have quite a few lesbian, gay clients. And without knowing that people came before them and what they went through and all that stuff, I mean the same thing. And for myself, it really helps to know that you have this history, this family that goes before you and some of the fighting back that happened in our history in times when it was so hard, really gives inspiration for times now when we still like we're not being treated like first class citizens. And so. - Yeah. - Well, yeah, let's talk donuts. (all laughing) No, that was a great story. I mean, everybody knows about Stonewall and everybody knows about what happened there and how important it was, but it was really kind of interesting to me, stunning almost, to hear that this kind of event had happened in LA years before Stonewall. Do you remember the story? - Yeah. - He's the best. - So Cooper's Do-nuts was a riot, so to speak in 1958, which is remarkable, 'cause it was 11 years before Stonewall. And we know of this account by John Rechy, who is a well known gay author today, and actually started encountering this sort of culture as a hustler working in downtown Los Angeles. And he had been across the country in New York and New Orleans and San Francisco. And he has this wonderful accountant, several of his books, about a night where the cops did as they did across this country on most nights. And they would come in to a bar or a coffee shop after hours and heckle the patrons. And one night a few people in this coffee shop called Cooper's Do-nuts in downtown Los Angeles said, that's it? And they started screaming obscenities and the cops tried to haul Rechy and a couple of his friends out and people started coming outta the bars, and they went out to the sidewalk and they started throwing donuts and coffee cups at the officers. And these folks were able to get away and it was nothing to the scale of Stonewall. And it was nothing that obviously had the importance and a follow up like Stonewall, and some of the other events had, but it was another step in that process of building boldness. It was things like that that made Stonewall possible, I think. - Well, you know, it's interesting. I think, I'm not certain who's interested in our history except for us. And, but I do have a sense that it's important for others to know because invisibility equals death, as we used to wear on our t-shirts during the beginning of the AIDS pandemic. And I was thinking the other day because of the Berlin Wall, and what we kind of know about the Berlin Wall is vaguely that it went up and then it went down after a long time. And we know a little bit about it coming down, but there's a lot of different stories about what built up to that. And in a way it's very much the same, this feeling like I've had it, I'm gonna do something. And it was very dangerous, very dangerous at first. And yet when in East Germany there was a riot, very much like Cooper's Do-nuts, about not wanting to live under Soviet rule anymore, or at least having the country be bifurcated. And they had an uprising and somebody heard about it in the next town and said, yeah, us too, which I think is part of what happened in our community. It was like ready to take fire. And eventually one community after another decided without talking to each other, they were all going to converge on the wall from the other side and just tear it down. And it was really overwhelming for the east German police who themselves were not that committed anymore because some of them were separated from their family. So without really knowing that history, all of us are told, oh, Ronald Reagan was the one that wasn't responsible for this, which is total BS. - That's right. - There's real history about it. And the real history is really the movement of real people, which is kind of what I get from this. But have you seen any interest in anyone besides us in our history? - I think young people today find it fascinating. I don't know if it's a, they grew up in a culture that's more accepting or if they like some of the sort of quirkiness of the LGBT community and that their histories are a little different than their personal histories. But when we had our exhibit on display, most of the people who came through there oftentimes were straight people, and they really were impressed by the history and the stories. And they could relate to it in some ways they are part of that community now, geographically speaking, they've been to those places. And they have similar storylines in their own lives, whether they be personal struggles or a broader community struggle that they share. And I think that's part of what we tried to do with our exhibit. And I think that our community is realizing this more, that we're part of many other communities and that all of our struggles and efforts, those paths cross and that that's important. And that history is not in a silo. It's not down one road, but it's a zigzagging and krissing and crossing. And I think that's why other people actually do find some interest in our history, which is really important. - Yeah, I mean all social justice movements, I think it all goes together. I would definitely say so. I get the same thing when I look at what black people have had to go through in this country. I mean, I feel totally empowered by seeing where they've come. And I would think that they would do the same thing, looking at our history. I think it very much goes together. - I think that people get inspired by viewing somebody who's done something that nobody else could do before them. I know when I tell young women that the 1984 Olympics was the first Olympics that women were allowed to run a marathon because the world said women couldn't run a marathon before that. Young women have flames go up in their eyes, they're like, "What?" And they're outraged. And it fuels them to get more into the history of that because they didn't know a thing about it before. - And also how mythology plays into reality. I mean, it always seemed to me that one society would create a myth about the other society. Just like you said about women couldn't run a marathon. They would get too tired. They're too delicate. I mean there's the first case about gender bias in California, was about a woman who wasn't allowed to run a bar, even though she was the owner, she wasn't allowed to run it or serve in it. And because she had to be protected from all of that bad company. And people say, you're kidding me. And yet that mythology about the weakness of women, the mythology about the corruptness really of the gay lifestyle, which the right wing is still pushing, has to be in a way overcome. And I think people understanding how the creation of a mythology leads to people getting arrested or people getting put in mental institutions, as you said, and electro shock therapy to try to change you from who you really are. The shocking nature of that is important. The other thing is when they started the Gay Services Center, wasn't Gay and Lesbian until two lesbians went and put a little carrot and put, "And lesbian," in the sign. That would be something for the Mazer collection to have that original sign, or even a picture of it. - That's exactly what I was thinking. - But there was a component that social services, which was a sort of a progressive or even radical notion, was an important part of any movement. The Black Panthers, made that a central aspect of kind of black organizing, and we did too, but unless you sort of know and understand those things, you don't see the sort of political connection. So have any of your friends had a kind of an aha moment because of any of this work? - I think a lot of people have, who were able to come to our exhibit, realized that Los Angeles had a really important role in the building of, how we kind of define it, a community formed, and then a movement started. You had to find one another before you could start to say, "Hey, this isn't right. We got to do something about it." And because our culture somehow has sort of lionized Harvey Milk and he's wonderful, and he had great contributions, but he wasn't the only one, and Stonewall wasn't the only event. And many things happened here including the very first lasting organization to identify as a gay organization, the Mattachine Society, which started in 1950 by Harry Hay, in a house with seven guests who shared the evening in his living room. And they started to organize. And there's so many stories like that that might not have caught the glitz and glamor of the front newspaper page. And because of that, so many people don't know those stories. And so many people have been able to see them coming to our exhibit, going to the Mazer and the ONE Institute. And see that Los Angeles really has been sort of underrepresented in this effort. And people, I think it gives a sort of sense of civic pride amongst people who live here. - Say a little more about the programming that you did too, 'cause that was quite unique. Every night, really, there was something going on. What was, the second night too, you had a woman... - Lisa Ben, she... - Lisa Ben, right. - Yeah, in 1947 she wrote the first lesbian magazine in the country and she was at her work at the RKO Studios in Hollywood. And just secretly typed out this magazine and put copies in a lesbian bar and passed around to her friends and... - Carbon copies probably in those days, right? - Yeah, yeah. (Sheila laughing) - So five at a time. - And you know, she's still around and quite an amazing woman and... - Celebrated her 88th birthday with you guys, right? - It was really fun. And we wanted people to say, Hey, look at what this woman did, she could have been fired. I mean, all kinds of stuff could happen to her. And she was just like, I'm wanna do what I wanna do. And she did this and huge inspiration. So we wanted to celebrate her and other people that are like her that are still around and people that aren't around, just all those that came before us. So we had her come the second night. We had an LAPD panel one night to... - Well, that's interesting. What did they have to say about all those pictures of them dragging us of a chain? (all laughing) - Yeah, yeah. - On the wall. - Yeah. - They had a lot of good stuff to say. They said they even would like to see the exhibit in their headquarters. That all of their people need to see what happened in the past. Then nothing like that can happen again. And there's still a lot of work that needs to be done, but the things are going in the right direction. - It was really sort of a turning point, I think. The deputy chief in charge of training for the Los Angeles police department was there. And she said a radical comment for someone who works in the police department. She said, "Tolerance is a very dangerous word because that doesn't lead to acceptance. We need acceptance." And I mean to hear this from a police department of a major city, knowing the struggles that LGBT people faced and still faced to a degree it really gives you hope that we won't slip back. And we can only hope, but I think that there has been a lot of hearts and minds that have changed. And it's a matter of time before we really get to the finish line. - So what does Roots of Equality do now? - Rest for a while? (all laughing) - I don't know. - Six months of work. for you guys, right? - I mean, I think that something else is gonna come up. We've just let organic things happen and I'm sure that someone's gonna get an idea in our group, and we're gonna go for it and have fun and hopefully make a difference. - And what about the Mazer? Are you doing programming too? I mean, I know there's a lot of just categorizing that needs to happen. - Well, actually I was gonna say, I'm very grateful to Roots of Equality because I think exhibits are really what gets a lot of people to know about this history. And otherwise what happens is only the people televised are the history. Those are our history, 'cause that's what people know about. So I think exhibits are crucial and we often have them at the Mazer as well. We have an event once a month, the first Sunday of the month, that pertains to our collections or the history and we have exhibits on a regular basis too. So it's really crucial. - Yeah, any sort of way to get the information out, whether it's a panel or exhibit or talk or something. I think the more mediums, the better, more people will be interested. - And I don't know if you found this, but people often come to the Mazer and go, oh my God, I never knew anything about this before. You probably had that happen as well. - Brings that, oh wow moment. - Right. Well, and it was geographically, it was interesting too, because the exhibit was downtown in a place that was nearby. Where some of the history had gone on. And I remember there was a kind of a big photograph and one of your guests said, you see that building behind the hotel, that's where you are now. And just going out then in the street to get back to your car at night, after going to this exhibit, you'd think, it was like he was surrounded by ghosts kind of, because so much had gone on, on that street in that area. And I'm sure it's the same with every city. Were they to gather their history. And it's, it was, I don't know. - Like sacred ground. - Sort of chilling in an interesting way. So will the, you said there's five collections now at UCLA, will there be more and more transferred? - Yeah, absolutely. A huge goal of, most of the board has been talking about this. A huge goal of ours is to get all of the women's specific, the grassroots we call it, all of the grassroots collections processed because these are women who no one ever heard of. And so without having them processed, no one will ever hear about them unless they walk into the Mazer. So that is our goal is to actually get the personal collections of these women, all of them to go to UCLA and all be processed. - Now, are you still, I know when people see this show, they will say, oh my God, I've got all this stuff in my second bedroom and I never even looked at it. Do you think it would be something they'd be interested in? How will people know if what they have is sort of collectionable? - Well, here's what I can tell you, is save it and call us. That's all I can tell you. (all laughing) Because the women who are, some of our most amazing collections are women who would never have believed that they were anybody special in the world. For example, we have, one of our biggest collections is Margaret Anne Porter. And we have her journals from 1933 every year until the eighties when she died. - Wow. - And she did amazing things and she had no money, and she would never have believed that her life would mean anything probably to anybody other than her direct friends or whatever. And it's one of the most amazing collections in the archives. - And you said, it started as a West Coast collection. So is it geographically circumscribed, if I live in Arizona and I'm thinking nobody wants my papers, maybe they want them. - Actually, we take collections from all over. We have some from women even in Australia, all over the world. And it's funny, you said Arizona, 'cause we just got a collection from a woman in Arizona as well. - Oh really? I had no idea. (laughs) - Yeah. So no, it doesn't need to, you don't need to live locally or... We're the largest West Coast lesbian archives and we're the second largest one in the world. - So anyone watching the show in Minneapolis or New York or Florida or whatever, if they say, I don't think anybody here wants them, maybe they want them, we'll put up, obviously websites for everybody, for people to copy down at the end of the show during the credits. I wanted to ask though, did you find any sort of holes in the collections that you went to, things that you didn't find that you wished that you knew? - I think one of the things and Melissa was one of the people to really try to go out and really find the diversity in the community. And sadly there's a lot, there's a hole in people of color. There's a lot of... There's not a lot of material and maybe it's because these organizations were headed by white people, or many of them were headed by men for so long. And really it's important to, if you don't give it to them to give it somewhere where it can be preserved and that in totality we can see the history of all people throughout this movement. And I know that that was something we struggled with and we really tried to get diversity in there. And I think we succeeded to a degree, but it was also a matter of it's just not accessible to a certain degree. And really, I hope that people will, as you encourage people to call the Mazer, people realize their material is important and it's part of this story. And if you don't give it to the Mazer one, give it somewhere so that it's preserved. - I think it's very important for people to at least be able to think about this because as you said, families destroy these papers sometimes after someone's gone. So you have to think about it while you're alive. And if you didn't particularly wanna come out, but you wanted to gather your papers and have them go. Maybe we need to be a little braver and just send them. And I don't know if you could keep them in the collection until a person dies, if that was the condition. And then, surprise mom and dad, here are my papers. - Well, absolutely. We actually encourage people if they have any hesitation to put a limitation. You can actually donate something and say, I don't want anyone to see it for 10 years. You can do that, or you can come out when you're dead. A lot of women have done that. They were not out in life, but they came out when they died by donating the collection and all their open photographs and papers. - Well, I'm very grateful for your coming on the show. I think that the work that all of you have done in the organization that you started with a few friends, and the Mazer, which really sort of started with a few friends too, only a little further back, have really brought an amazing set of gifts to the community. And I hope that you will think about this wherever you are in terms of the importance of knowing our history, the importance of knowing other people's histories , and encouraging them to do very much the same thing, because what you know, really affects your life. So get used to it. (upbeat music)