Get Used to It: Ep. 148, "The New Warriors: LGBT Activism Today"

(typewriter keys clacking) (funky electronic music) - Hi, welcome to "Get Used to It." I'm Sheila Kuehl, and as always, I kinda walk you through this hour of interesting talk, conversation, revelation, whatever occurs to you. Hope you'll stick with us for the hour because this one is particularly interesting, I think. People have been talking a lot, especially in organizing for Obama's campaign about the influx of young activists, people who are really suddenly interested, it seems sudden to us anyway, in organizing, in community organizing, in grassroots organizing, in getting something done, and in personally being involved. So, I asked three people that I think exemplify this in many ways to be our guests today and talk about what's happening. Why are young people getting involved? What are they expect is gonna come out of it? And kinda, what are they doing? So I'd like you to meet my guests today. First is Mike Ai, who's co-founder of Equal Roots Coalition, which is a grassroots organization focused on coalition-building action, that is taking action to build coalition. Welcome, Mike. - Thank you. - My next guest is Yardenna Aaron, she's co-founder of the Here to Stay Coalition, which is a coalition of black LGBTQ folks, and their friends and family and allies working to end homophobia. Welcome, Yardenna. - [Yardenna] Thank you. - And my third guest is Chris Smith, who is also a co-founder of Equal Roots, as I indicated, an organization working to build action through coalition. So welcome to all three of you. - Thank you. - Thanks for having us. - Mike, let me start with you. I think everybody's got a story. And, one of the interesting things to me is, how do people get started doing this? Because so many people see things that are wrong, or see things they'd like to be right, and they don't think there's anything they could do. There's a lotta passivity. Your whole generation doesn't seem to be activists, but there just seems to be more going on. So personally, how did you start in, or decide to be an activist? - For myself, I guess, before, I never really was involved in a lot of political, a lot of the political arena. I didn't do much. But, I think what happened for myself and for so many young people, that with Proposition 8, it just kind of really hit home that, you just felt this such open, widespread discrimination and such hatred and fear of the GLBT community. I mean, for myself, I know that, when you're growing up gay, I came out at a very early age and I kind of always knew I was gay, you sense that people have a fear, they're scared of you or not okay with your being gay. And, I grew up with it and you live with it. And it wasn't until Proposition 8 though that I really saw this complete horrible action taking place, and it was just not okay with me. - We have people who watch the show who are not in California, although I think it pretty much got national attention, this was an initiative voted on by the people of California to say that they would write it into the California constitution that marriage must be only between one man and one woman. So it was pretty much of a blow to us. - It was a really hard blow, and I think that's just kinda what inspired me to get involved. I just wanted to make a difference. - So what'd you do to get involved? I mean, I think people also say, "Okay, I'm ready to get involved, but I don't know what to do." - Well, at the time, the No On 8 campaign was doing a lot of phone banking, and I got out and I did the phone banking, and I felt like I was making a little bit of difference, but I didn't feel like it was a lot. And after November 4th, when Proposition 8 did go through, and when so many gay and lesbian people lost their rights across the nation, you just kinda saw that there needed to be something more that needed to be done. So myself and three of my friends, we co-founded Equal Roots, which is a grassroot organization focused on kind of coalescing the efforts of a lot of the different grassroot LGBT organizations' actions. After November 4th, there was a lot of people that were upset. You saw that in the rallies and protests. I remember the weekend after November 4th, there was this huge protest put on by FAIR. It was about 10 to 15,000 people in Los Angeles, marching in anger and frustration. And, you saw this, this movement happening, you felt it and you were part of it, you're marching in it. And, that's what's been happening since, just people getting together, fighting for what's right. - So, but were you active in high school and stuff? I mean, was this-- - Not at all. No, not at all. - This is not your necessarily your through line in life. - Uh-huh, I went to school and I graduated with economics and accounting, so far from the political arena. But, I mean, I guess that's just a testament that anyone can get involved. I mean, you don't have to be a politico, or know the ins and outs, everything that is politics. I just felt like I was one person who was around a lot of people that wanted to make a difference and change things. And we just got together and did something. - So your friends, do they think this is weird? Or, are they kinda in it with you? Or do you see people more involved in a lotta different stuff in your generation? - I think a lot of us are, we're the generation that we have ADD, we like to do a lotta things, so. - (laughs) Yeah, I can watch how you're on seven different technologies at the same time. - Yeah, absolutely. I mean, all my friends, of course, they're involved in what I do. But I'm involved in what they do, it's just kind of sharing our ideas and sharing what we wanna be involved in. - So, are they involved in other kinds of activism? Were they involved in the presidential stuff? - Yeah, so, Barack Obama, he had an incredible campaign that kind of invigorated young people. I think that's also another reason why I was so inspired to just get involved. Chris is one of my roommate, and we actually held a phone bank with MoveOn.org, and we just invited strangers to come into our house and just phone bank for Barack Obama. It was incredible. You know, you're calling these people, we were calling like Virginia, and McClaine, Virginia, I think, or McLean, McLean, Virginia. And, it was great, you're just out there doing this with strangers and you're making a difference. - Well, one of the things that people were talking about that was different about Barack's campaign, is that it seemed to have a lot more trust just in the regular person. - Yes. Yes. - It was kind of like saying to you, "Hey, here, download 10 names. You call 'em on your own. Here's a script if you need it." You know, tell 'em what's right. Where other campaigns have been much more-- - Kind of closed off, yeah. - Sort of top down and closed off and whatever. So, did you get a sense of that? - Yeah, absolutely. They gave us the script, they gave us phone numbers and we just ran with it. We had no idea what we were doing, but that was the most exciting part about it. It's just, you're doing something, you're not sure what you're doing, but you actually feel like you're making a difference, and you are. We just ran with it, and it worked out perfectly. And I think that's kind of the power of Barack Obama's campaign. Inspired the younger generation, a generation that I might, like a lot of people might consider apathetic, to care, to care about something bigger than themselves. - Well, it seems also there's sort of a time in history when this happens. I mean, when I was 19, John Kennedy was running for president. And I still remember the very first time I ever heard him. I couldn't even get into Royce Hall at UCLA 'cause it was full. So we listened out in the quad, on loud speakers or whatever. And, it was stunning because I had never really thought of anybody but myself, honestly. I'd been a camp counselor and I'd started to learn a little bit about taking care of other people, but it was brand new. So, I think the thing that people are seeing is that we're very happy to see other people kind of coming out of themselves and looking ahead. But, what do you hope will come out of your work? - My hopes are big. - [Sheila] Good. - My hopes are very big. I remember when I was younger and I was coming out, that I had a really hard time with it. And I know like so many young people, they have thoughts of suicide, and just horrible things happen to them. And I want for that day to come where no gay or lesbian or bisexual or transgender person ever has to face that. Where we have equal protections, equal rights across the nation, and not just for GLBT, for everyone. So, big hopes. - Well, it is big hopes, but you're not the first one to have them. - [Mike] Yeah, absolutely. - Do you find that you take strength from anybody in particular that's come before? - I take strength from everyone that I've met through this gay activism, be it the generation before me, to the person right next to me phone-banking. And it's amazing the people that you meet doing this, I guess activist work. I don't consider it like, activist work. It's just doing what's right. - Right. - And, I'm inspired every day by the people I meet. The stories and just the lives of people. - So did you, do you get any training to do the kinda stuff you're doing? I mean, I know forming the organization, it probably just came out of, "I've got a great idea. Everything's so disparate, maybe we can get people who are all headed in the same direction in the same room," I get that. But, do you get any kind of training? 'Cause I know a lotta people went to Camp Obama, and they taught 'em about phone banking. They taught 'em about putting up a table at Safeway or the market or whatever. Did you participate in any training before or? - We did the phone bank for Obama with no training. We just kinda downloaded the stuff on the internet. - [Sheila] That's good. - But Camp Courage did something similar to Camp Obama, and they did a training on gay activism, gay organizing. So, it was great. Yeah, I guess that's the training, but really, not really, no, no training. - No, it just comes out of I think I'll just-- - Just comes out, yeah. I'll just do this. - Wake up in the morning and go do it. (both laughs) That's great. Well, Yardenna, let me ask you the, kind of the same questions. How you came to, I'm gonna call it activism, even though I really understand that it's kind of, "I just wanna do something now I'm doing it. I don't care what you call it." But, how did this come to you? Was there a big change in your life or something you did all along? - The first time that I really got politically active was around another proposition, Proposition 209. It's been a while since that came on the ballot, but that was pretty much an initiative that would take affirmative action out of the UC system. And I was born and raised in South Central Los Angeles, and I was educated in South Central Los Angeles. And it really wasn't till I went to college that I started interacting with a lot of other races, folks from different classes, folks who have had different educational backgrounds, where I got a chance to begin to see and compare the differences. And, from that experience, I began to see when that initiative came down the pike that I did not feel they were equal. It was not equal access that I had growing up. And this initiative I felt was false. So, just by looking at the numbers of black and brown students, and Asian students too, in the college, it wasn't proportion to our population and the general population, which is kind of my measure stick if everything's really fair and equal, then the number of us who are in the population should be the number of us in different, higher educational institutions and different professions, but it's not so. So that was kinda like my foray into jumping into activism per se. - And what did you do? Were you in school at the time, or? - Mm-hmm, I was in school at the time. I was a freshman or sophomore, I can't remember which one. (both laugh) But it was a big whirlwind because I had never really been introduced to activism such as that. So I had the same experience that Mike had over here, where you're in it, you're holding rallies, you're trying to educate folks, you're talking to your friends, families, neighbors, you learn about going door to door. I had never done any of that growing up. So, that was my foray and I've dedicated my life to that kind of work ever since, in terms of working at different nonprofits. After I graduated, I spent five years at a grassroots community organization in South Central named Agenda. I've done work with the union. I pretty much have dedicated myself to a life of social justice and activism. But it wasn't until Proposition 8 came down that I realized the importance of turning my skills and my attention towards LGBTQI activism. Because, while I was focusing on these other problems, economic justice, social justice, racial justice, all these other things, another part of my life that I embraced in love was being attacked. And so that's where my friend and I pretty much after this proposition passed, 'cause we did a little bit of volunteer work for No On 8 too, knew that something more had to be done. And our focus became in the black community. We knew that there's a particular work there that needs to be done and we felt called to do it. So, it's out of that that we joined our predecessors because there have been great activists already doing work and holding us up in the black community and beyond. So we wanted to join them on the front lines in our community to help make change there. - Tell me a little about the organization that you're working with now. - Okay, so we created Here to Stay November 20th, (laughs) a couple weeks, I got out there. And we got caught up in the activism. I got really inspired. I went to a protest. I was at Sunset Junction not too long after the protest, and I was just really, really, my heart was really warmed by the throngs of people. I had to leave the protest at 8:30 and it started at seven, and yet still, tons and tons of people coming down. Now I wasn't around during the civil rights movement, but I can only imagine, just as we saw when the immigrant, our immigrant brother and sisters came out against the Simpson-Burner Bill, how millions of folks took to the streets, I felt we were in a living time of history. We saw the same thing when the war in Iraq happened, how hundreds of thousands of people across the entire world actually came out. So I was real glad to see this spontaneous activism, even though it was really not spontaneous. We can talk about that later. (all laugh) Happening in the LGBT. - We all saw Milk with the phone list. (all laugh) - And so from there, we knew that this is great, it's happening in different communities. We began, you know, I would tune in sometime to the right wing radio, and they would begin to say things like, "Oh, they'll do it over here, they'll do it in West Hollywood." Like gay people only live in West Hollywood. "But they won't do it over here." And I'm like, well, I'm from here. I'm from South Central. Born, raised, educated, still live in South Central. Of course, I'm from this community. Why can't we go out and show our faces? Why can't we come out, I love your signs here, why can't we come out in our own community? And we felt the need and the call to do that. But it takes a lotta courage. - [Sheila] Right. - Because it's true, there's a lot to lose. But our goal is to show folks that there is also a lot to gain. - So what kind of actions are you guys taking, sort of currently or have you taken in the community? - On November 23rd, we had a protest going up Crenshaw Boulevard, starting at Leimert Park, the heart and soul of Black LA. (laughs) So we took to the streets. There were 200 of us. - Wow. - We gathered in the park, walked up Crenshaw, shouting, "Equality for all, equality now." All these black faces, and it was a shock to the community 'cause that was a first ever event, it had never happened, going up and coming back. And so that was a huge success. So, we got mixed reactions, but we all know (laughs) that for us to announce us, that we have to come out. We will never get a different reaction if we never come out. And then also, we also had a historic walk in the MLK Day parade on January 19th, a couple weeks ago, under the banner of "Black, gay, and here to stay." So we worked on that in coalition with the Barbara Jordan/Bayard Rustin Coalition and the National Black Justice Coalition. So we teamed up and we took that walk in the parade. So that was, our predecessors have done it before, but it was time for us to revive that effort and to walk under the banner saying, literally, it literally said, "Black, gay" in lavender. (all laugh) And, "Here to stay," in black, green, and red. So, having that presence in the community was awesome because we sometimes expect the jeers and the boos, and, "You're going to hell," and these other things. But I have to say, I cannot express how much love and respect we got by taking that walk. Folks were clapping. Folks were standing up. Some folks openly and some folks, you know, kinda down low doing the wave. But it was important for one, us to be out there showing our face, and two, for our community to see us. So, there is definitely hope. By taking that walk, we saw that there is definitely hope amongst our community. We need to be there and we've always been there. We're here to stay. - That's so cool. So what do you hope for in terms of the outcome of your work? - For our work, I too have high hopes. And my hope is one of more safety. So, I don't necessarily feel that in the end, everyone will like us, but I want an end to physical abuse. I want an end to it being okay to physically abuse, to verbally abuse, to discriminate, to legislate discrimination against us, because I don't like everybody, but does that give me the right to discriminate and abuse them? No, it doesn't. Does that give me the right to attack them while they're walking down the street and living their lives? No, it doesn't. So I'm calling for the same respect to happen for our community. And so I feel that that's a level that we all can get to, and the work by our predecessors has been great, 'cause we've come far. And they've gotten us very far, but it's now time for us to learn and work together, to see in this next generation that we're living in how much further we can take it. But that's my ultimate hope for safety, for every person to be able to come out and know that they'll be okay in their own community. - Very good. Very good. Gives me a lotta hope. Well, Chris, how 'bout you? I mean, you've heard the questions, I'm sure I don't have to say 'em again. We're interested in kinda, how did this start for you? 'Cause it seems like there's a point in everybody's life where they're kind of, oh, kinda passive. "I'm not sure I can do anything. My friends don't think it's cool if we do anything." And then suddenly, it feels like suddenly, we're kinda in it. Something gets us, you know. What happened with you? - For me, it was a similar experience to both of theirs, but obviously a little bit different. (clears throat) Excuse me. I would say that it was the passage of Prop 8, is the ignition. But, I had co-founded a group called the Student Coalition for Marriage Equality at UCLA, with a couple of friends who asked me to be the treasurer, and I did, 'cause I took those econ and accounting classes. But that's as close as I really got to activism, per se. And I think we're all part of a generation where we've been told that we can be whoever we wanna be. And I think that a lot of people feel, in analyzing our generation, that that's led to a sense of entitlement or a sense that, "I wanna be CEO tomorrow," for example. And I think that on the flip side of that conversation, you have to acknowledge that there's a lot of information that we're gathering about who we wanna be and options and stuff. And for me personally, it was that I've learned somewhat about my history as an LGBT individual, as a community, but nothing's really activated me in a profound way the way that HIV had activated so many before us, or other LGBT issues. So, Prop 8 was my LGBT issue. And, once it passed, it was very clear that it was wrong and it's crossed the line and I needed to do something personally. And that, be it Prop 8 passing or not passing, having to do that, I'm glad it happened, in a way. - So what did you do? On November 5th? - So what I did, on November 5th, I called in to work on November 4th and told them I wouldn't be in until late on November 5th because I was having a hard time coming to grips with it. And everybody at work understood, and that was fine. And on November 5th, I went out into the streets with everybody, and it was chaotic and fun and amazing to see all of the people who, regardless of their background, in any way you can define background, everybody was there at the same moment to share their frustration, anger, love, everything. So it was very high emotions, and I'm so glad I had the opportunity to be a part of history in that way, because I think it's something that you only get maybe once in a lifetime. - So then what? Because, there were a lotta people out on the streets who went home, went back to work, felt depressed. We were all kind of weeping, and I was really glad I had a job to go to, frankly, 'cause it would've been incredibly depressing, after we passed the marriage statute twice in California and had it, and it was vetoed. So what did you, I mean, not everybody did something. What was it that made you wanna do something? - You know, that's a really good point. Not everybody did something, and maybe they went to a rally, but they didn't decide to start an organization like Here to Stay or Equal Roots Coalition. But, I think for me personally, I've always wanted to work with my friends, in a way. And, I have amazing friends and I've been blessed with amazing friends like Mike and Sarah and Matt. And I think for me it was this opportunity to work with my friends for a positive cause that I knew was the right thing to do. And so, I think that that really struck me when Matt called me and was like, "We need to hold a conference for the LGBT community." And then we're like, "Wait, what, how are we gonna do that?" But, we did it. And so, it was the idea that you can work with your friends for positive change, and that, another example of something, maybe once in a lifetime you get to do. - So do you have any good examples of people who came before who have been on fire like this, who have loved to work for something, and have become CEOs of anything? 'Cause if you do, I need to know about them. - (laughs) I don't. - One of the things that happens, and I guess I wanna, when we're talking, remind me. I wanna talk about joy, because this is a very familiar thing to me, and a lot of people who've been on the show, where something happens to you and you, just like you Yardenna, you say, "I'm going to, I just need to work in an organization that's doing something I care about." So it does start you a little bit on a path. Does that worry you? - You know, to be honest, it kind of does worry me a little bit, because I work at a consulting firm in my day job, and when I'm not a host of a show, or the guest of a show. But, statistics that we find in my consulting job is that Gen Y and younger generations are gonna have increasingly, an increasing number of jobs throughout their lives. So, I feel like I'm trying to stay stable in my life that pays me to do something, but I'm also trying to grow in an arena that doesn't pay me, and I can't pay bills with our activism. But, I get so much value out of each, I can't really trade it right now, I can't substitute it right now. So, to an extent you're right, it worries me, but, I think we're doing the right thing. And if somebody has a problem with that, either at my job, or somebody has a problem in activism with the fact that I have a job, they need to learn about the new way, the new order of having multiple jobs. - Get used to it. - Yeah, get used to it. Yeah, exactly. - So what do you see or hope for, in terms of the future, that will come out of your involvement? - I see, I thought that both of the points were really profound that Mike and Yardenna made, but I would see, additionally, the acceptance, like a profound acceptance of the LGBT community. This would be probably a couple of generations from now, if we can accomplish everything we want to. Where it's not the gay community that you reach out to if you wanna be fashionable, it's the gay community you wanna reach out to if you just, you don't even need to reach out to them for anything. They're just a complete, it's a complete mix and everybody's respected equally. It touches on both Mike and Yardenna's points. But, the idea that we are a separate community and that we're excluded from things, I don't want that to ever be the case for somebody who is a child growing up and seeing that their classmate has two dads or two moms. I want that to be so cohesive as a story of like, the American experience, that it's not even a second thought. So, we're a part of history, and hopefully we can iron out the rough edges that we're experiencing right now. But I want it to be normal to be LGBT. - But you see it more like a salad, right, than a whatever they used to say, a melting pot. - Melting pot, yeah. It's definitely a salad. The metaphors are hard because there's no one right way to describe America or the world or all of the different experiences that people have. But all I can say is that when you try to exclude or define via stereotypes or any way, legislatively or socially or economically, you get into some really rough territory where you can't always have solid footing, so, I'd like us all to be a salad if that's what it is. - Well, let me ask you all three. And I mean, I don't want to keep sort of asking you, let's have a conversation kind of about these things. In terms of sort of the blessings or the joy or, before we get into the barriers, family approve, are you glad you're doing this? Is there something that creeps in that makes you not glad you're doing it? I don't even know what the question means, but somebody could grab it. - Is there joy in this work that we do? Absolutely. There's so much joy in this. I get so excited doing this gay activist work. You meet the most incredible people, you feel like you're a part of something bigger, and that is powerful. Just being, doing something that's not completely selfish, that's not just about you. You're doing something to create change, that is a part of, that's going to be a part of history. And that is incredible. That's where I find the joy, and absolutely there's joy in this. - Well, I've got mixed reactions. 'Cause a lot of times I do feel very joyful and grateful over the work. 'Cause, even though it's only been kinda like a couple months (laughs), since November, a lot has happened. (all laughing and talking) I've had some past experiences with violence, and for me, just coming out and being more out, has opened me up to, whether you wanna call it ridicule or hostility, well, let's call it what it is. You know? - Both. - Threats of folks threatening, exuding physical violence over me, all that has happened by being out and coming out. So there is, like I said before, there is definitely a cost to be paid for being out. But I've also begun to experience the benefits, just the love, and like Mike was saying, meeting new people, making new friends, feeling more connected within my own community, within the larger extended community. Growing a larger community has really been a point of joy for me. I felt so good that it even gave me strength. I went out and came out to my brothers, 'cause I had been out to my parents, my sister, my favorite cousins, my favorite family members. But, right before that parade, I woke up Sunday morning, the parade was on a Monday, and I had a knowing within me, it's like, it's time to go tell your brothers. So, I'm not even sure if something like that would've happened if I hadn't felt connected, felt reaffirmed and reassured and part of a larger community and that what we were doing was right, and that it was time to come out in all spaces. So it's been a mixed bag for me, but it's worth the trouble, and the work has to go forward. - Absolutely. I remember when after November 4th happened, I sat down with my family, I went down to see them, and some of my close family members voted yes on 8, and it killed me. And we had discussions beforehand and I tried to change their minds. And, there are times where it's not joyful. There is definite pain in this. I mean, Proposition 8 stripped our community of a right that we so deserve to have. And absolutely, I completely agree with you. It's hard sometimes. And there's a lot of work involved too in gay activism, you don't sleep. (all laugh) - Any kinda activism, all those meetings. - Yeah, and for me personally, I'm from South Orange County originally, Dana Point. And I think it was less about my family, because my family is very supportive, me being an activist and me being gay and all of the above. It was more about my friends and people that I've gone to school with and that kind of thing, with the cultural change that needs to happen. In a culture, not just South Orange County, but that's a good example, where you're not exposed to all the different perspectives that you're exposed to when you try something new, when you get out of your routine, a daily habit. So, I think for me, it's a challenge. The challenge is, how do I educate my friends and how do I educate those who aren't necessarily-- - [Mike] Against you? - They're not necessarily, no, I mean, they're not necessarily against me, but they're not necessarily for me. They might need to like, mull it over a bit. For us it's pretty clear what needs to happen. We can go issue by issue, law by law, but there's a social and cultural change that needs to happen too. And I think I'm really, I'm primed for that. - I think that's what activism is actually for. - [Chris] Yeah. - Because I was an activist and then a legislator, and legislators, that's our job is to make law. And it took me five years to get the Gay Student Protection bill through, because there were a lot of people that just didn't wanna vote for it. Even people that had gay sons, had lesbian sisters, who are in the legislature. And, there's just a lot of sort of barriers to it. But even getting the law through didn't mean it was gonna be enforced. We go school by school, and it really kind of is door to door, and person by person. Which brings me to kind of the question, what do you see, each of you talks about what you hope for the future, what do you see as the major barriers to that? Both keeping you maybe from fulfilling all of it, but more society. - I kind of want to answer that for me really quickly, 'cause I know what I'm gonna say (laughs), and I don't wanna forget it. And I think that that's kind of, the fact that we as America, or the LGBT movement, have an opportunity to reach out to communities that have not been incorporated into the, I don't believe have properly been incorporated into the history of America, Asian Americans, Latinos, African Americans, all of the ethnic minorities, just as a start. And I think that the barrier is to get them engaged in a way that they haven't been before. And that we have the opportunity as LGBT and allies to do that in a way that we haven't before really thought about, I haven't thought about. We are LGBT in the African-American space, in the Asian-American space, Latino, Native-American space. So, we can use all of that power and prowess to try to unite America. And that would be, I mean it's a huge barrier. It's maybe not a new idea, but we have energy and we're here and we're new and we're ready to try to do that kind of outreach. - I think a big barrier right now in my mind is just how the economy is. And it's hard for people to think about gay rights when they can't feed their own family, when they don't have a job. And that's a very real, like, fear. So, I mean a barrier, like, is it, my fear though is that people will forget about gay rights because they're so concerned about the economy. And it shouldn't be like, well, one issue doesn't affect the other, 'cause there are gay families that can't feed their families. So, I mean, I think there's opportunity for America to learn, to change. We're gonna change the economy. We're gonna change how civil rights are. - In some ways I think a barrier, and I think it's one we can surmount, that we can overcome, is figuring out how to have those one-on-one conversations. What I've been experiencing in terms of really connecting with, and in a way moving a person's opinion that they might have towards our community, has been one on one. It hasn't happened in big, larger settings. And it has taken at least 30 minutes for an initial conversation. So when you think about human power that's needed, on what to me seems like a mass scale, 'cause right now we're only speaking, I'm only speaking on a state level, but we have seen these rash of initiatives going across the entire country. So, one, it takes courage. It takes folks to be out, and it takes allies to have courage because I don't think that the work is there only for those of us who are LGBTQI to do. I think our allies have to come and also be a part of those conversations with their friends and neighbors. The straight allies have to come out. (all laugh) Not another way to put that. So, just organizing that and having that happen across the kitchen table in mass in order to really change. 'Cause I feel like what's needed is a heart change. I don't want someone to necessarily say, "Well, I think that's right." I want them to say, "I know that's wrong." And make their decisions from something that they feel inside of them. I feel that's where the true equality is gonna happen. Because, like you were saying before, things can be legislated and we can get things into law, but we experienced that over there with Jim Crow segregation. There's de jure and de facto segregation. Stuff that's in the books and stuff that happens when you walk through the front door of the restaurant. So what we wanna change is what happens in our real life, day-to-day experience. And my experience has been that it's more that one-on-one, that conversation and just trying to figure out how to have that on a larger scale in our churches, because the black church is a huge institution in our community. How do we rouse and bring out our religious allies? 'Cause they are there, in this work, in these last 2 1/2 months, they are there. I didn't know it, I didn't really feel them, but this process has also shown me that we have friends in a lotta different places. So how do we come together and organize across to really build that movement to help change the hearts and minds of the people? - Well, I've always thought that Americans really, mostly like fairness. And they think, we think of ourselves as a country that values equality and fairness. And what happened in my generation was really around race, because we paid no attention, even in California, and especially in California where it wasn't so obvious, we didn't have segregated facilities, et cetera, except de facto. But it hit my generation when we saw the fire hoses turned on people in Birmingham in 1963. And we watched it on a little tiny black and white television, and could not believe it. And you know, everybody living that life would say, "How come we can't believe it? This is our life every day." But, it just took something. And it's the same with our straight allies, I think. Many of them have said, "I'm just, I can't stand," just like you said, Yardenna, "This is wrong." And I think that change is what really does it. 'Cause the country has always been divided up into layers. We say, "Well, I don't like all these racial barriers," and whatever, and yet we have black communities, people all living together, because, not only by choice. Or Latino communities, et cetera. So we have our identities and we start our activism in that area. But then we find allies, and it turns out to be very much the same in different communities. And it's the same with really old people who have certain experiences, elder abuse and that kind of discrimination. Middle class people are going through their economic meltdown. And then what we call you guys, young people, who have their own issues about what life is gonna be like and whatever. But I always say, "I don't care." You make an organization, I don't care if it's all this or none of this or whatever, and then make your coalitions like you're all talking about. And I think it really works, 'cause a lotta times people are waiting for somebody to lead them. And it often doesn't happen. Even when Dr. King was writing his letters from jail, he didn't think he was like leading a movement. Everybody participated. So I think there was, there's a lot to that. But, do you see good participation in your generation? Are you just a few of a few, or do you see it kinda happening? - I see more involvement in our generation, the Generation Y or the millennials, or whatever you wanna call us. (Sheila laughs) Young people, more than the generation before us. And I'm not sure what exactly is the reason for that, but I think a lot of young people today feel that they can make a difference, and because they feel empowered to do that, that they will. And it's different from the generations beforehand, before us. Maybe not, maybe just the generation immediately before us, not before us. - Well, there was always somebody but not, not necessarily a whole lot of people. Do you see a lot of people or do you feel like it's a few individuals? - I feel there are a lotta people, when the spark happens. So, the way I think about it is that, for the march, for the protest that happened on Crenshaw, if the Love at Work organization hadn't called for it, then myself and my friend would not have come together to work and support them and try to make that into a success, and then Here to Stay would not have happened. So, it takes that spark to happen. But what I've been seeing is that when that spark does happen, when that call goes out, goes out that people are rallying, which I'm not sure would've happened to such a large degree had Proposition 8 not happened. So that's kind of one thing that I'm saying, the response, the folks' willingness to come out, without expecting anything in return, but to know that they're fighting for our rights. So, that's the thing that I'm seeing. - But when you said before, the spontaneous, well, it wasn't exactly spontaneous, I'll talk about that later, tell me more about what you were thinking. - Well, I kind of feel that a lot of folks have gone before us, especially around the AIDS epidemic. There's a lot of folks who have made our issues and fought for our issues, even to have a domestic partnership. Even though it's not enough, it didn't always exist, and there was tons of resistance before that. The amount of freedom that I enjoy, even though I feel repression sometimes when I'm out and about in public, I don't feel it's like our predecessors, you know, the freedoms that I enjoy had not existed before, someone had to come before us and do that work. So I see what we're doing is building upon it. We can take the case in point around the vetoing of Proposition 22 that happened. If nothing was organized, if folks hadn't come before us to fight that, even though the majority of Californians voted for that, how could we have had those vetoes, and how could we have had those 18,000 marriages that happened? There's obviously infrastructure that's there that has been working for our issue and getting our images out, and fighting for our rights. So I see us as continuing to build in that, in those steps. - It's interesting because like, Yardenna mentioned the infrastructure. I think the infrastructure has changed, and it's sort of like in fluid state, because the infrastructure of your generation, I think we identify with a lot. And then it seems like the generation preceding us, immediately, tried to institutionalize either lobbying organizations, or just LGBT rights as a movement. And, I'm not sure that it's as effective as people getting out into the streets and stopping traffic. I don't know. We'll have to figure that out later, but-- - Well, not that it's not as effective, but I mean, a lot of those kind of big corporations, lobby groups, or gay politics, they did great things, but it doesn't, that's not the only thing that we need. - Right. - I think the reason why you see kind of this upsurgence of grassroots movement is that, it didn't work. Like the No On 8 campaign, we tried to stay very politically correct, very PC. Let's not show the faces of gay people. Let's just do it from trickle down kind of manner. And it didn't work. We need grassroots involvement. And that's what's happening right now. People are seeing that. They're like, it's a wake up call like, "Hey, this should have happened, and now it's the time to make it happen." - Right, and one of the challenges I think is that those institutions are still there, and we're there, and everybody's there. And so, it's kind of a matter of, I mean, when you ask if there are few or many people getting involved, it's also important to consider what kinds of people are getting involved and what infrastructure they wanna see. I feel exactly like what Mike said earlier about youth feeling empowered with technology could be my number one example of being able to plan an event. There was a woman down in San Diego who ended up getting thousands of people out through text messaging. That's incredible. I don't think, that's just incredible. So, with that comes a responsibility to make sure that you include as many people as you can, and as many communities as you can. And then also try to have a plan of some sort. Equal Roots, our organization, has been really effective at last minute, highly successful events. (laughs) And that's because there was this energy, it was the spark, like what you said. There was a spark and people wanted to do something right then. So we'd have a week and a half to plan a conference, - You know. (all laugh) - Or an action fair in this very room. So, it's such a challenge because you really need to be engaged with your constituents, if you wanna call them that, and see kind of like what people wanna do and how much they wanna get involved, but make it universally applicable. So, for example, the March 5th oral presentations before the Supreme Court, there's a lot of discussion about what are we gonna do on March 4th? 'Cause it's universally applicable to everybody who was involved in the No On 8 campaign and rallies after. So, with our activism comes responsibility and it's hard to exactly define what it is, but we know we have to be cognizant of what we know and what we don't know. - Well, it's interesting 'cause campaigns, if you have something on the ballot, whether it's a person or an initiative or whatever, campaigns have been run, like over the centuries. You could look at how Lincoln's campaign was run, for instance, since there's a lotta talk about Abe Lincoln these days. And the whole thing has always been one-on-one, getting people to vote, figuring it out. Problem with the No On 8 campaign is that it wasn't exactly headed up by people who normally do campaigns. - [Mike] Absolutely. - And I think that the organizations are still very necessary, as you were talking about Chris, but this is sort of the it of it for changing minds, I think. So tell me what you're gonna do from now on. (coughs) Sorry. - Bless you. - From now on? - Yeah. What's the next step for your organizations, do you think? - Do you have next steps figured out? Okay, go for it. Well, we need to, I need to organize my thoughts real quick. - Well, most immediately, Here to Stay Coalition is hosting a black gay history month party. So, part of our analysis of how to help to end homophobia is to put our history out there. So, I kind of maybe think folks, folks might not think of Audre Lorde, they might not think of Bayard Rustin who helped, pretty much was the architect for the march on Washington. They're not thinking about Barbara Jordan. They're not thinking about these folks, who are integral and recognized as leaders, I'm speaking about black history right now, who are recognized as leaders, but their sexuality, who they were in their essence is not coupled with that, has been suppressed. Not thinking about James Baldwin. Every student is reading James Baldwin, usually in the public school system, 'cause I had to read him too, but that part of who he was wasn't brought out. And I know you had worked on trying to make sure that that was happening in our school system. So that suppression is something that we need to begin to work against. And so, I have historically had a black history month party, but now we need to have a black gay history month party. So that's the most immediate, next thing that we're working on. But, we have a whole host of things that we know we need to work on. We need to work with our churches. We need to work going door-to-door with folks, meeting folks in the community. We need to work across the table with other allies of different races, because, end any racism or any tensions there that may have come out, because we know that if it's not fixed, that's just gonna become a weak point that anti-gay forces are gonna use against us when it's time for us, they're gonna do racial factions. We've seen it all before, historically wide. So, we don't have a whole laid out plan. It's only been 2 1/2 months that we've been in existence, but we're doing strategic planning, we're trying to figure it out. And right now we're doing an education piece, black gay history month party. - See, that's incredible 'cause education, I feel like is the first step to kind of just changing people's hearts and minds. 'Cause I genuinely believe that people don't want to hate us, they don't. It's just that they're maybe not educated enough. They don't understand us. They've never met a gay person. It boggles me today-- - [Yardenna] Or so they think. - Or so they think, right? Yeah. We're out there. We work with you, we're around everywhere. It's incredible, because education is what is gonna change people, it's gonna change the hearts and minds. - And it's also, the point about the history I think is really important. I just listened to an NPR reporter who did an in-depth analysis of John Maynard Keynes, about how Keynesian economic theory is the trend now, and all of these Keynesians are coming out of the woodwork, when it was previously agreed upon that that's not the way to go for the American economy. But, this guy, after presenting at least a five minute overview of John Maynard Keynes, getting pretty deep into his life, failed to mention that he was gay. - [Yardenna] Was he? - Yeah. - See. See. - And he hung out, he hung out with the Bloomsbury Group in London. And it's really interesting because in the thousand-page biography that he purportedly read, it was never cited on this NPR station that he was gay. And I think that that would, as an econ major, at the least, I would appreciate, hey, there's a leader in my field who I can identify with. So, that's amazing, and that's, I think something we need to continue to do, because, frankly, I'm not as educated in LGBT history as I wish I were. - Well they actually, in the AIDS movement, we always wore these t-shirts that said "Silence equals death." But the whole point of it is, it also equals invisibility and invisibility always helps the guys on the other side. It's kind of like, well, we love all these people. We didn't know they were gay. Which is why in the, back in the day we started National Coming Out Day, which kind of was more honored in the breach than not, to try to get people to try to use that to not only out themselves, but other people like James Baldwin and Bayard Rustin, and people that we wanted people to know. And we were told over and over again, "Well, that doesn't matter. We don't need to say that." 'Cause that wasn't part of their work. He was an economist not, necessarily, do we have to say he was a gay economist? And the answer is, you do. And they said the same thing about race or even gender. Where people used to, women used to hide their work behind initials so that they could get published, and then didn't want anybody say they were women, or called themselves George Sun. - Isn't it convenient though? Like, it's convenient that race and sexual orientation doesn't matter when you put it into the history books. But as soon as you start talking about a movement, all of a sudden it becomes, "Oh, well who's gay, and who's straight, and who's in the middle, and who's transgendered and you know, it's interesting how they can play it both ways. - Well, they play it for the bad, but they won't let you have the good. - Yeah. - Right. - And that's why I think what you say about history, it's always, it's why we wanted black history way back before we had black history month. People would say, "Why do you need a black history month?" Just one, a year. And you say, "Well, because otherwise it's zero a year, that's why." And I think it's the same with all of us who are discriminated against because of some aspect of who we are. So, if you had a message, 'cause we've got about three or four minutes left, for the people watching, and they're gonna be, some of your generation watching and some not, what would you say to them, Mike? - To get involved, I think. Figure out what you care about and stand for it. Get involved. I read somewhere on a blog, some guy posting a blog that he thinks that the gay movement is gonna peter out soon, that people are gonna start forgetting. And I read that and I was so upset. And, I guess my reply to him is that, it's not ending, it's just beginning. And I tell anyone, if they feel passionately about anything, get out there, take a stand, do something, take an action. Now's the time, don't wait. - Great. Yardenna? - My message would be that, yes, I understand there's a lot to lose. But, at this point it's very clear that there's way more to gain. And there's enough room for all of us, no matter our sexual orientation, our race, our class, there's enough room for all of us in the community. And I do believe in my heart that, even with the work that's just happened since this proposition passed, that if the vote were to be retaken today, that it would be in our favor because we saw that they had a lot less in terms of winning percentage-wise from Prop 22 to Prop 8. And that was with, in my opinion, a lot of our resources haven't come together at that point. So we know that they put on a full on show to get it passed and they didn't win by much. So I think just us getting onto the street and showing and fighting for ourselves to the average, on camera, in the view of the average person that we got a lot more respect to build on the work that others behind us have done. And if it were to be retaken today, that we would win in our favor. So we have to continue to move forward. - Thanks. Chris? - I would say to all of the closeted individuals out there, that there is a loving community of friends, and you can consider it family, that you can reach out to whenever you would like to. And we will be there to listen, talk if you want us to, but we're here, and we're people, and we have gone through the same troubles. So, if that's what it takes to get you active then, EqualRoots.com, I'll give you my phone number. We're all open-armed in this community. - Well, we will be showing your websites, I think, as we run the credits for the show, so that everybody can find you and you can help them find other people. I wanna say to you, thanks for watching. This may be a new generation doing the work. They talked about other generations doing the work, talked about coming out, how important it is, what the joy is of being involved. So I hope you'll do it, and I hope you get used to it. (relaxed acoustic music)