Get Used to It: Ep. 142, "Transgender Youth"

(keys typing) (upbeat music) - Hi, welcome to "Get Used to It." I'm Sheila Kuehl, and I take you through the winding pathways of our show every week, every month, or however often you watch it. This is a show that concentrates on issues of interest to, by, and about our lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, questioning, and allied communities. So welcome to the show. I have a really interesting show today. It's about, if I were to give it a title, I'd say it's about our transgendered young people, but it's really about a lot more than that as you'll see from my three guests because this whole issue of gender, which has been the element of the discussion about lesbian and gay people, about transgender issues, about whether people are dressed correctly or not correctly for their sex at birth, whatever has really been the thing I think that has come to bind us altogether in this movement and has caused many of our allies to think about their own attitudes and their own lives. So I'm very pleased to have three wonderful people with me today. First, Sethestha Iraheta, who is a fundraiser, young person that I've met, as you'll hear, at a hearing that we had. Very, very bright and wonderful young woman. Welcome. - Thank you. - And Carolyn Laub, who is the founder and Executive Director of the Gay Straight Alliance Network here in California. Welcome, Carolyn. - Thanks. - [Sheila] And Masen Davis, who's the Executive Director of the Transgender Law Center, a statewide organization but based in San Francisco. - Thanks for having me. - [Sheila] Welcome, Masen. - Thank you. - [Sheila] Masen, let's start with you. People like to know a little bit about the people who are going to be giving them all this information. So tell us a little about your life and what brought you to this work. - Well, like a lot of people who've done gay and lesbian advocacy, I think I, in many ways, came out of the womb believing in the need to advocate for the disenfranchised in our own community. I come from a long line of ministers in the Midwest and knew at a pretty young age I was a little different than a lot of the people I was around in a pretty small conservative town in Missouri. And, you know, as a transgender person, as an adult, remember the many days that I would go to elementary school and get halfway to school and change clothes in the bushes on the way to school, and then do that on the way back because I had a real sense of, an internal sense of gender that was different than what most girls were expected to do or be at that time. I've been active in the LGBT movement for about 20 years now, having come out originally as a lesbian before I realized I was transgender and doing a lot of antiviolence work within the LGBT community in Chicago, and then eventually moving out here to California where I helped start a group called FTM Alliance of Los Angeles to do community building work because at the time, when you went to a transgender group, you would see only transgender women and a lot of the guys- - So male to female or MTF. - [Masen] MTF, yes. - And when you say FTM, female to male. - [Masen] Yeah, thank you for clearing that up. - Well, I mean, you know, I have to study up before I do these shows, and maybe the audience hasn't had a chance to study up. - We have so many acronyms and different, you know, in group terms to describe ourselves. So yeah, as a female to male transgender person or transgender man, I didn't see a lot of people like myself, and so started the group to help organize people like myself to make sure we were part of the transgender movement. And now, many years later, the Executive Director of the Transgender Law Center, doing advocacy to make sure that we have civil rights regardless of our gender identity throughout California. - Well, it's interesting. I think people say when you are a lesbian or a gay man, and you're kind of out finally talking to people , and we always include T now in our acronym, and people say, well, I think the impression is, well, there aren't very many people like this. And I think the reason being that people often imagine that it's at the end of a spectrum, you know, that there's been a surgery, that there's been, you know, drugs, that there's been all kinds of a pure change. And yet what we're finding is that there's really a whole spectrum. - [Masen] Yeah. - Of what a person who would self-refer as transgender. Can you talk a little bit about that? Because I think with young people, we see it even more. - Well, the truth is we all have a gender identity. And so at the Transgender Law Center, we define transgender very broadly with anybody who's gender identity or the way that they express their gender on a day to day basis is a little different than what the stereotypes are associated with our sex at birth. And so I would actually say many people, members of the LGBT community, are transgender. They may not be transsexual. They may not take hormones or have surgery to live full time as, you know, what's seen as the opposite sex, but many of us are at different places of that gender spectrum. And I know before I realized that I, or started self-identifying as transgender, when I identified as a lesbian, I was a very masculine appearing woman and dealt with a lot of harassment, not necessarily because I was identified as being a lesbian, but because my gender was really different and would oftentimes be challenged on the street, whether I was a man or a woman. And ironically now, having transitioned or taken medical steps to live as I am now, about 10 years ago, I rarely am confronted about my gender identity. People don't assume I'm transgender, and it makes it actually difficult sometimes to do organizing within the transgender community because many of us blend into the woodwork. We don't necessarily have a bar or many clubs to go to. It's hard to find each other, especially because many of us, when we first transition, are encouraged to blend into the woodwork and to not associate with other people. And so we're just now really seeing this revitalization of our community with people are willing to be out and visible, proud members of the larger LGBT community and realize that we've got a lot more in common than we have in difference. - And the revitalization, what do you think that stems from? - Well, one, I think we realize that we are stronger together than we are different. And the reality is that many of us, many gay and lesbian people experience challenges based on their gender as well. I mean, I think of a case that we had at the Transgender Law Center last year where we supported a young lesbian in high school who wanted to wear a suit to graduation, and her school was not going to let her. And that wasn't just because of her sexual orientation. It was 'cause her gender expression was a little different than what they allowed in their rules. So we had to work with the schools to make sure she was allowed to go to graduation in her suit, which was appropriate for her. And I think people see we've got, you know, a lot of commonalities, a lot of overlapping issues. And as transgender people step up and are willing to support broader gay and lesbian rights, especially given that many transgender people identify as gay or lesbian or bisexual, we see that we really are one community. - Well, it must be even more difficult, as everything is, when you're in school because things are pretty rigidly gender defined in school, starting with bathrooms, of course, which was almost the very first thing that we had to deal with when we passed the new law in California, where we redefined gender, expanded it a little bit, saying that, in the hate crime statute, if somebody committed a crime against you because they thought you didn't look right for your gender or didn't behave right for your gender, that was a hate crime based on gender. And that law was actually used for the first transgender hate crimes case in California, although it wasn't necessarily just aimed at, you know, could be just as much a girl who wants to play basketball or a guy who, you know, wants to dance ballet, but all the way to, I think we were talking about the color of your robe at graduation, where you have to be, you know, one side or the other. What was your experience in school? - [Masen] Personally, I didn't go to the bathroom through all of high school. - [Sheila] Wow. - I just avoided the whole situation. I knew that wasn't a safe place for me, and unfortunately, that happens for a lot of LGBT students where the bathrooms are associated with violence or harassment, and that's one of the reasons we really believe that where we can create gender neutral bathrooms, family bathrooms where everybody's welcome, whether that's because somebody has young children or they're transgender or need to assist somebody with a disability, it's a much more accessible and safe place for people than the very gendered bathrooms that we've come to experience, especially in high school. I know I was not the only one who got used to not going to the restroom. - [Sheila] Wow. - And during facilities. - And, you know, I've had a conversation even with a young person recently who uses one of the services in Los Angeles, and because they've experienced harassment as a transgender person, when they go to the service, they never go to the restroom. So they'll go to meetings at this one facility and then will have to go home before they go back to school because this is an experience it's pretty common for gender different people, whether or not you identify as transgender. - [Sheila] Well, Sethestha, let me talk to you for a minute about your experience. You're probably closer to the school experience than the three of us. Not much, but a little bit. Can you tell us a little about your, sort of your life experience? - High school, I think it was worser for me in middle school than it was in high school. I think I was a little bit more educated in high school, but not by much. I mean, like what Masen said, it's very similar to the fact that, you know, when I was in high school, I really didn't use the bathroom much, but it didn't stop me from trying. I mean, I can remember trying to, I would get to school very early, and I would go to the girls' restroom because there were no mirrors in the boys' restroom. So I would go and try to apply my makeup, and a male teacher had reported me to my principal, and my principal had brought me in and was just telling me I can't be in the girls' bathroom. And for me, it was just like, I had never had anything that dramatic being pointed out to me, but I handled it. I think I handled it very maturely. I questioned a lot of it, only 'cause that's kind of how defiant I am. - [Sheila] That's great. - And he was just telling me that if I didn't comply, then I would pretty much be suspended for the rest of the semester, and he actually came up with a custom made contract on saying that I wasn't gonna go into the girls' restroom again. And I wish I could have kept a copy of that contract to this day. It was in a small town north of San Francisco. It was a high school a little past Santa Rosa, and it was just totally ignorant, I can really say. They were just so uneducated. They were lacking any diversity. There was no African Americans, but a few, very few. There wasn't hardly any homosexuals, if transgender. I mean, there was nothing of that sort. It was so unheard of. And it was kind of hard because I was forced to be expected to know how to socialize and to coexist with everyone, even though I truly had no idea what I was except for the gender identity I felt the most comfortable with myself in, and I had no idea what the word transgender was, and I knew I wasn't a homosexual because what my image of the examples of homosexuality that I had seen was males or females identifying as male or female and being with the same sex, and it was just really hard for me because I didn't feel that way, you know? - [Sheila] Right. - A couple of my friends would say, oh well, he's gay. Why don't you hook up with him? And it was just so different for me because this boy was extremely flamboyant and extremely colorful, and I was just like, that's just so fishy, just an LGBT word for very feminine, and I just, I'd never fit into that, but I stayed away from transgenderhood at the same time for that title because A, didn't know what transgender, what that word was. The closest thing to that was transvestite, and when I thought of transvestite, I thought of Jerry Springer, and it was really something I wanted to stay away from because if I didn't feel like an outcast enough, it was just, it was that much worse, but it got easier as soon as people started getting used to who I was. Like, I was very famous in this town. I kind of sort of used it to my benefit socially because, you know, I seemed to be at everyone's party, hosting everyone's party because I knew 90% of the people that would show up. And that kind of, you know, the popularity kind of made it easier for me. At the same time, the more I seemed to be in the public eye, it just was a little bit harsh. Like, I would get, I would walk to and from school and have people like a neighbor of mine flick lit cigarette butts at me through his truck, and I would go to the movie theaters, and it was just, no matter where I sat, me and my friend dared to go on a Friday night, and wherever we sat, we just seemed to have popcorn, candy, coins tossed at me. I think I had like $1.75 by the time I left. It was just ridiculous. - [Sheila] Wow. - It was so unnecessary, and at the same time, because I would have to face all of that, like, all the negativity and all the mental and physical exhaustion kind of, I just took it home with me. And because of all that anxiety that was carrying, I kind of lashed out towards my parents, and everyone seems to assume that, you know, because I'm so far away from home, or people seem to, when they think of, you know, gay or transgender or anyone in the community, they seem to think that they have problems with their parents because of it. And for me, that wasn't necessarily necessarily the case. You know, I was still really young and in high school, and my parents didn't know how to raise me, let alone a transgender. So it was kind of difficult because I would lash out to them, and it was just, I would go to school. It was never academic. It was always social. I would go to school, fight the world for, you know, being who I am, and then go home and try to call it a day, and then fight my parents for a completely different battle, and it was just so exhausting. It wasn't a good experience. - But it must, it feels very courageous. I mean, especially after Larry King's murder where simply for being who he was, as you know, because you actually went and spoke in the city of Oxnard, I think. It's a danger, and I think you have to live your life no matter how dangerous it feels because so many kids drop out of school, but you didn't drop out of school. - You know, it was, I felt like I had to be myself, and there was a lot of things that... You know, I can say that I never broke down and cried and called it quits, and I was kind of a little bit happy with myself on that level because, you know, there's so much depression and so much anxiety that goes through this of anyone that transitions and then someone who's transitioning in front of people. I feel like, you know, I couldn't drop out because I had nowhere else to go. It doesn't matter if I was in school or not, you know? It just seemed to follow me wherever I went. And, you know, besides all of that, I can truly say that there were people around me who really were motivated because I was the example. And even if they weren't transgender, they were a little bit more open to themselves. I was the president of the GSA at my high school that I went to, and the facilitator of the GSA had told me that she had never had such a huge outcome or a class with Gay Straight Alliance group before. And I was just so happy that, you know, it took me to bring people in to really coexist and talk to people about, you know, what we're all going through, straight, gay. - Well, I guess people would say, if Sethestha could do it. - [Sethestha] Exactly. - I mean, she's gonna have a lot more disapproval in many ways than I am, so, you know, it seems like you really led the way. - It was like kind of like suffering in front of everyone, and then people felt bad because they couldn't help me, you know? My parents couldn't even help me, you know? My house would get egged like every other week, and my parents would just have their house painted, and they'd be so upset, you know, and it's kind of sad because I know in my heart that they never lashed at me for it, you know, because they knew that it wasn't my fault. And at the same time, you know, who else could they be mad at? And it was just really, I felt so horrible, and it was just like, you know, how do you make something like that stop? - Well, fortunately we hope it's a long life, and you can, you know... It took me until my forties before I really, really, you know, came out to my parents, made up with my parents. I mean, they were very supportive all along, but, you know, hopefully these things can happen, and your mention of GSA is a great transition to talk to Carolyn about the Gay Straight Alliance Network. But tell us a little about your story too, because to be the founder of the GSA Network, I mean, that's kind of a big step. - Well, you know, in this conversation, one of the things I'm thinking about is just how important gender has always been for me as a lens and how I've seen the world. My father's a mathematician, and I'm really good at math, and that was what I excelled at in school. And so he really tried to reinforce messages for me about kind of what the world was going to offer me these stereotypes about girls that shouldn't like math or shouldn't be good at math and that I could defy those stereotypes and that it was important for me to sort of understand that injustice in the world and work to overcome it. He really wanted me to go into mathematics. Instead I started, you know, an activist organization, and he is very proud of what I do. So I began working with lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, queer, and questioning youth after college, and a transgender youth came out to me, and I was the first person he had told that he was transgender, and I really helped him through his transition and some of the challenges he had with his parents and his school. And around that time, while I was working with the support group, I learned about Gay Straight Alliance clubs, and I just thought they were phenomenal, and it's all about the courage of young people to be out and to be who they are and the allies who stand alongside them, and I got really inspired to create an organization that would engage young people in that process. The power of young people to change their own schools by getting them networked together and creating a bigger movement for equality in the schools. - [Sheila] But what led you to do this? I mean, do you ever understand your own bent towards activism? Was there an aha moment or a, oh, I'm there too moment, or, you know, I mean? - [Carolyn] You know, a really critical moment for me was going to the first Queer Youth Lobby Day in Sacramento, where you were. - Okay, I didn't know the answer to that question. I really didn't. - So that was seeing, you know, I already was interested in activism. I had done activism on my university campus. I had, you know, spoken out for abortion rights, you know, was pro-choice in junior high, debating all the folks who were anti-choice. So I've just kind of always had an adversarial kind of spirit in me, but really the core value around wanting to see things be fair and just and equal, which I think came from my dad teaching me these values about what I could do as a girl to overcome stereotypes in the world about gender. So then I had the opportunity to go to Queer Youth Lobby Day in 1996 and bring some young people with me from the support group. And I was so inspired by seeing how young people's voices could make a difference in the political process, and that was the seed that was planted for me in terms of starting Gay Straight Alliance Network then in '98. - I think it's the only reason that we got the law through in California to tell you the truth, because that grew every year, and the selection of the word Queer Youth Lobby Day was very conscious because we didn't wanna just use the words that everyone would say, okay, could we just use the nice words, because the, you know, young people say this is our word, we're going to reclaim it, and they were wonderful. So what is GSA? Well, let's start sort of one step back. What do GSAs do? What are they? - So GSAs are clubs of lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, queer, questioning, and straight ally youth working together in the schools, first and foremost, to provide a safe, supportive place to go. Usually the clubs meet at, their extracurricular clubs, they meet at lunchtime or after school. What we've done as an organization is help Gay Straight Alliance clubs do more than just provide support and actually work to change the environment in the school. So that when that group of students that's in the GSA club now, once they're gone and they graduate, that they've left the school in a better place that's safer for the incoming students, who really need the harassment and violence that's going on in the schools to stop. So there's really three types of clubs. We always talk about the support clubs, the social aspect, 'cause most of what we like to do when we're in high school is socialize and have fun, but to be able to do that in a place where you're not being judged about your sexual orientation or your gender identity or expression is really important. And then the third type is the activist GSA. - So have you found that the straight allies, I mean, I have spoken at a number of GSAs in high schools in LA County, and it's sort of like great for the gay and lesbian kids. They feel like there's a safe place to go. And in some of them, some of the straight allies were completely caught off guard by how they would be judged once they were in this club because now suddenly they take on all the aspects of the marginalized group. - [Carolyn] Right. - And so how does the network sort of help to advise people in dealing with that, if it does? - [Carolyn] Well, you know, it is a challenge because some of the straight youth are then targeted with harassment by their association with the GSA club, but it's really phenomenal because there's straight allies who see this, you know, some of them are in the club because they're really taking a stand on the issue. Some of them are there because they have LGBT family members, parents, siblings, friends, obviously at school, who've brought them to the club to be part of it, and some of them are really there because they see this as a civil rights issue or a human rights issue, and I find that incredibly inspiring and hopeful for the larger LGBT movement, that we have this whole generation of straight youth who see this as such an important civil rights issue they're willing to stick their neck out, potentially get called names, or get harassed at school because of the stand that they're taking politically. That's what we need, you know, in the long term to win LGBT equality. - Well, it's another reason why we put in the law that if you harass somebody because of what they are or what you think they are or because they're associated with someone- - [Carolyn] Right. - With these characteristics, it all counts because otherwise people were escaping by only harassing people who weren't gay, but who, you know, were only associated with people who were gay or transgender. So do you see this picking up as a movement nationwide? - Well, certainly, you know, that clause in the law is really important because it is about the straight youth who are the allies to the LGBT students on campus, or the straight teachers who are the allies, who are sometimes harassed by other straight colleagues. But it's also really important for the students that have LGBT parents because they are associated with an LGBT family, and they're facing a lot of harassment and discrimination at school because of that. So that is something that we're increasingly starting to talk about as there are more and more children with LGBT parents in the school system. - Well, there's a support group for kids with LGBT parents, too. I mean, I think the greatest thing that, and I hope you'll all kind of jump in and not wait for me to call on you to speak because it's not school anymore, but one of the greatest things I think has been that people sort of have their silo of issue or life experience, and I think one of the things that's happened with the transgender movement is that it came to people's attention just a little bit later than the lesbian gay movement. And the fact that the LG movement embraced it to some extent, although I'd like to hear how you think that was or if it is, it sort of has a lot to teach but also means that the transgender movement is going through some of the early stages about, you know, pride, about how to identify specific issues, specific needs. Do you see, I mean, anybody, but do you see that this movement is getting help from the lesbian gay early movement or that there was some conflict or? - Well, I think both. - Yeah. - In general, what's exciting to me in doing transgender rights work is we're not starting from scratch in quite the same way that the early gay and lesbian civil rights movement did. We know about Harvey Milk. We know the power of coming out, right? And it's taken some of us a while to remember that, but we have a history that we can draw on, and many of the people you see active right now in the transgender civil rights movement came of age in the 1970s, 1980s, 1990s. Many of us were involved with Act Up or Queer Nation. Many of us learned, when we perhaps identified as gay or lesbian before transition, many of us have been active for a very long time. And so those lessons that the gay and lesbian movement have picked up over the last handful of decades are definitely evident in today's transgender civil rights movement. We are taking those lessons learned, and as a result, I think you see that the trajectory of transgender rights is escalating pretty quickly because we're not starting from scratch. Now, that said, you know, even in the late, or sorry, early nineties, when I was working for a gay and lesbian organization, I know transgender issues were still very marginalized. And because I had not, at that point, personally identified as transgender, I still remember working with a transgender woman on staff and being really conflicted as to why she was there. You know, she was a transsexual woman who dated men. Why would she be at our gay and lesbian center? And I really struggled with that on a personal level. I didn't get it. Now I get it, but I was- - [Carolyn] That's good, Masen. - Yeah. But I wasn't alone at that time, but it really speaks to me. That was not that long ago, but in the early nineties, it was still very new, very much an emerging community. We were still wondering whether or not, you know, where transgender issues stood within the larger movement. At this point, I think we know. I mean, for the most part, we realize that we are all one. We're integrated parts in fabric of one community. We've been around since before Stonewall. We continue to be more visible in the mainstream gay and lesbian community. Now, that's still an area of contention at times, you know, and anytime I think you've got a marginalized group fighting for rights, you know, we have a tendency just to stay in our own slice of the pie and argue over that slice as opposed to looking at the much larger pie of rights that all of us need to create together. So I think it's a really exciting time to do this work, and more and more mainstream gay and lesbian organizations are realizing that transgender issues are really integral to their mission and are starting to change their policies and programs and practices to reflect that. - I saw you nodding while he was talking, too. - [Sethestha] Yeah, I mean, I absolutely agree. I feel like, you know, a lot of trans... Like as, as an activist, I feel like, you know, I haven't just woken up and just decided to, you know, I think I'm gonna, you know, do this all by myself and stuff. I've had so much support from our community, and I have done my research, you know, and it's important to really know the legends that have come before us, to really have our own voice for it to be strong, and, you know, supportive to others because you can't really speak about something that's happened to you personally without really being aware of how it's been affected in the past or how it will be changed in the future. And I kind of, something that I mentioned in Oxnard was that I kind of see it now as... I feel personally that the gay community seems to be getting a little bit more accepted than transgenders because, you know, what I've noticed is that first it's heterosexuality and, you know, people who are biologically themselves you know, it's all normal, and then it's the gays. You know, like, oh my God, it's the gays. And now over the years of me growing up, I'm only 18, but I've noticed that a lot of people tend to not pay attention, even youth my age, you know, don't seem to be pay attention too much on the homosexuals, I mean, on the gay community, then the transgenders because transgenders is still, like you said, like, it is so different, you know. At the same time, like why would we be here, you know, if we date women, I mean, if we date men or whatever, but there's so many different types of transgenders out there that people don't seem to pay attention to, but, at the same time, that's why we get spotlighted because we're so different, you know. Like, I know transgenders who have children, I know transgenders who date other transgenders. I know transgenders who, just so many of 'em, you know, transgenders who date males, you know, and we have to come to the conclusion that there is obviously the difference between gender identity and sexual orientation that a lot of people my age aren't really understanding. So I think, you know, going back to when it all started and stuff, you know, it was all as a community, you know. That's just my... - Well, I'm thinking about GSAs and some of the discussions that I've actually been able to sit in on because there would be a variety of young people in a GSA and a lot more variety for gender expression than you would even imagine because as a young person, you actually just feel something. You feel attracted to the other sex. You feel attracted to the same sex. You feel like you are not in the right body for your sex, and absolutely anything kind of along the way. And one of the things that I saw in the group was they struggling to help each other, struggling to understand each other when they weren't the same was quite wonderful for themselves. Have you found this, Carolyn? - [Carolyn] Well, yeah, there's, you know, I think one of the things that's happening is that young people, there's a lot of fluidity around sexual orientation and gender identity and expression, which is just part of the world. That's just reality, and young people are also going through that process of figuring out your identity and also figuring out what to call it and how to express it and what to name it. So there is that process that's happening, you know, when you're a teenager in high school that's a perfectly normal part of adolescent development. And so what's great about a GSA is that there you have a safe place to kind of explore some of that and talk with other people who might be similar to you, or they might be different from you, and so you can learn from each other. And that, I think that, you know, from my perspective in thinking about the term even, Gay Straight Alliance, is not a particularly inclusive term, but the concept is an inclusive concept in the way that it's actually being lived out. And the lived experience of young people in school when they're being harassed is so often about gender expression. It's really not very often that it's actually about who they're dating or who they're holding hands with. Sometimes it's about, you know, wanting to take a same sex partner to a dance, and if they're not allowed to, that's an example of discrimination on the part of the school based on sexual orientation, but when someone's called an anti-gay name, what we often call an anti-gay name, the reason they were targeted often has to do with their gender expression. - Right, nobody knows whether you're gay or not. - [Sethestha] Exactly. - [Carolyn] Right. - I mean, they simply assume that you are because that's the only real box that they have to put you in, but it's really about you, yourself. - [Carolyn] Yeah, and young people, I think, you know, the school work that we do, the work in schools and advocacy has never really been just gay and lesbian, and then, you know, or gay, lesbian, and bisexual with transgender as an add-on or an afterthought because of the nature of harassment being so much about gender expression. So GSA networks always included transgender and gender nonconforming youth issues as not a secondary kind of issue but really core and central to the work that we have to do to change schools. - And I absolutely agree, and I sort of think that that's kind of what happened in Oxnard with Lawrence King. I think that, you know, it wasn't because he was gay. I think it was because of his expression because, like you said before, there's no way you can tell. Like, there are people that you just would have no idea, so. - [Carolyn] Right. - [Sheila] Well, I don't think people really understand how important gender is in society, even to them. You know, a lot of people say to me, I don't care if I have a boy or a girl. I'm gonna, you know, treat them the same. But I have to remind people, I wanna remind you as well, that when a baby is born, even before a baby's born, there's only one question that everybody ever asks, and that is, what are you gonna have? Do you know what you're gonna have? They don't even say, do you know if you're gonna have a boy or a girl? It's so basic, they just say, do you know what you're gonna have? You know, nobody says, yeah, a pony. Great. They know exactly what you mean. Or a baby is born, a new human being, and the only question that anybody says to their parents is, what'd you have? - And we create a whole script and story around just the assumption that, oh that's a girl. - Well, it must be very important, really. - So this is, okay, so you're gonna have a girl, so now we know she's gonna go to prom and wear a dress, and she's going to do this. She's gonna take ballet, and she's gonna go to a certain college, and she's gonna marry a boy who does this. - [Sheila] It's like the song from "Carousel." - It is. I mean, so we create this make believe world for this person who's not even born yet merely based on what sex their chromosomes are. It's really pretty incredible. And then our society just plays on that from, you know, what's the food you're gonna like to eat or the magazines you'll read, the deodorant you use. - Which aisle are gonna shop in in the toy store. - [Masen] That's right. I mean, you know. - [Sethestha] Good point. - We assume so much just based on that, and I try to say to people, okay, so for now it's female. Okay, that's a start. I mean, because, and I don't think... Whether or not somebody's transgender, we shouldn't be determining what their goals are, what they're gonna achieve in life based on whether they're male or female. - Well, but it's the thing that I think I want people to understand their own language, no matter how good we think we are on an issue, our own language. I mean, you know, one of my staff gets pregnant, I wanna say, do you know what you're gonna have? And I would not wanna treat that boy or that girl or that boy who's gonna become a girl or whatever differently, and yet, I don't know any other question to ask in a way. - [Sethestha] To keep it neutral, exactly. - It's so deeply ingrained, you know, in us that it must be the most important division. - [Masen] Wouldn't it be neat though, if somebody said, what are your hopes for your child? - Well, a lot of people do say that as well. I mean, people are watching the show right now going, I'm not like that, you know? I mean, I'm saying, is it healthy? And good for them if they do that. And you don't wanna not ask because, in a way, it is the way that we show interest to a person who's just had a child, you know, but. - [Sethestha] I don't think I've ever asked anyone whether they were gonna have. I always, from my experience, I've just usually asked what they plan on naming their child 'cause I feel like that's important, but. - I think it is important. I know somebody was saying they were naming, there were a lot of young girls being, or new baby girls being named Tyler, and they wondered what their experience was going to be because if people would say, oh, that's a boy's name, or if enough girls named Tyler happened, it becomes a girl's name, you know, like Leslie, which used to be a boy's name, right. It's just so divided, and yet what you're doing really, is saying, you have to look at the very fundamental assumptions you make in society. I think this work is so fundamental to societal change, the work that you do, and I mean, it's interesting that you are on the board of Masen's organization, that you make that connection, you know, and that you operate in a larger context with people who are going through other struggles. We're seeing the same thing in a way with race, not in terms of the ability really, to change necessarily, but in the feeling that I don't want to check any one of those boxes because by now, I don't know. You know, I could be this and this and this, and that I think is also an important aspect of change. - I absolutely agree. A couple of my friends and I were discussing on, well, what do you check in the box, or what do you look for when you look for an application and stuff? And honestly, my own personal opinion, I think that it should just be left up to the person who's filling it out, you know? I know transgenders, like personally, I absolutely accept the fact that I am transgender first and foremost, but at the same time, you know, it's a label. It becomes a label that people, she's not female, that's not a female, that's a transgender, you know? Like, all of a sudden, like, I'm an alien now, you know, and it's just, I would prefer to put in my own label, you know? Sometimes I feel like a transgender, most of the time, I feel like a woman, but does that really define who I am is what's so important, and people have so many... You know, not even transgenders necessarily, even, you know, of a couple of people in the gay community, they have names that are just so, you know, fishy. You know, sometimes they feel like females, and then the next day, they feel like going back to males, you know, or expressing themselves as males. So we can't, I mean, it just goes a little bit further. Like, there are so many types of people in our community that it's even hard to label one as a transgender or a homosexual because there's so many varieties. - [Sheila] Well- - [Carolyn] I'm just gonna say, like, we so often, just thinking about forms and literally having to check off boxes where there's only two choices, male and female, and the reality is what you're saying. I totally agree. There's such a spectrum of who we are in terms of our gender identity and also expression, and it doesn't always align into one box or the other. So, I mean, it'd be great if you could... I mean, on our forms, when we do programs, and we have people fill out forms, we just have a blank, you know. Fill in what you want. - Exactly. There's no other, it's just what it is. What is it that you? - And you're not an other either. - Exactly, you know? And it's just like, well, there's a question is like, you know, the options that they give you, I feel is so unnecessary because if you put gender, you obviously know what gender you are, you know, whether it was biological or the gender that you transition to, you know? So that's up to you, you know? The point of male and females seems so unnecessary because when you think gender or sex, what do you typically think? The gender or sex that you are, so it seems unnecessary to me. - So what Masen said was very interesting, and that is, you know, you're fine now. Nobody's harassing you. You're a guy, that's it. - [Sethestha] Right. - And so nothing about you, unless I guess they know you're transgender, would be something that people would feel even, you know, slightly discomforted with. - [Masen] Well, I have my Faye moments. - Yes. - [Masen] So, you know, I mean, I definitely identify as a queer man, but I forget sometimes that I'm transgender, I'll be honest. I mean, and I identify oftentimes more with the gay male community than I do some of the transgender communities. So I mean, many of us go through many worlds, right? We have many doors that we walk through in a given day, and I'm more likely to be assumed to be different based on my sexual orientation than my gender now, ironically, but it is true. I mean, we have people who experience discrimination for many reasons. Very few of us fit simple boxes regardless of your gender identity or sexual orientation, and I think for me, when I first started doing work, I mean, first I started off as a strong feminist and really was very active like Carolyn and a lot of the women's rights and reproductive rights movements, and then doing gay and lesbian work, and now transgender work, to me, it's all linked. It's all about being who we are authentically, having pride in who we are, and for people to have the rights they need to be safe and whole people in the society, and that's what it's all about. - I do wanna say, as far as the Cala- 'Cause I know a lot of transgenders, what we are trying to do now is change our names so that it fits on our IDs, you know, and there we have it again. Are we male or female? What does our ID classify us as when we change our names and change our sexes? And it's kind of hard because, you know, I don't wanna say that, fully, I don't want my ID to have a TG on it for sex, and so I do put female, you know, but it makes me kind of wonder how many other people are still having problems what to put on their IDs, you know? And like I said, again, there should not just be two options, you know? I think it should just be like, however represented, you know? I mean, sometimes it's obvious. I mean, I get clocked all the time, you know, no matter when my ID says, and, you know, they'll just be like- - Why does your ID have to say your gender on it in the first place? - Exactly, exactly. - Well, it's the same thing with your driver's license. I mean, you have to feel sorry a little bit for the Department of Motor Vehicles, okay, because they think they've got it down to a science. You bring in your birth certificate. That's who you are. They'll give you a driver's license. And of course, that's not the case. I mean, I changed my name when I was acting. I had to go in, and fortunately, unless you're using it to commit a crime, you can actually change your name. You can use other names, but you wouldn't be able to, you know, check both sexes or whatever, and if it's just a matter of you matching your picture, then there ought to be a lot more ways to do it. - [Carolyn] School ID cards, I mean, we know stories of lots of young people who've had their school ID card says one thing, and it says say an F on there next to their female given name, but then the way they appear, 'cause their living is who they are, doesn't match that at all, and then they get harassed, you know. They won't be let on the school bus because of that. I've so it's a really big challenge in the schools that are grappling with how do we, you know, understand how to change the systems in our schools. - And then if you have your school IDs are in one gender and name, but then you need to go get a job and another gender and name, it creates a big challenge, especially since the Patriot Act, where the Social Security now is starting to check to make sure all of your IDs match when you take a new job. And so we're finding a lot of transgender people, especially transgender young people whose IDs may not match from, you know, their birth certificate up to their passport are harassed in the workplace, and many are losing their jobs because it makes them then come out as transgender in the workplace with employers that may not be the most friendly. - Oh, good, we should chew them all. Oh, did I say that. - [Sethestha] I know like, I've had problems going back to like the birth certificates and the IDs not matching. My California ID is gorgeous, you know, but my birth certificate... I mean, I've had problems. I've gotten harassed, just crossing the border from Mexico, you know, because you do have to have an ID and your birth certificate. So showing my ID, you know, it's all gravy, and then I show my birth certificate, and they're just like, well, who is this, and it's almost like you're automatically having to clock yourself, which is kind of hard because not a lot of people are that smart, but it always does come down to the sex. - [Sheila] Sure. - So for me, I was just, you know, they were asking, well, who is this, and why is this different, and I was hoping they weren't gonna come over that, but, you know, people are a little bit smarter than I assume, and especially on the border with our government. So I just told them, you know, yeah, well, my name is short. What's on my birth certificate is shorter than what's on my ID. I change a lot, you know, it's nicknames, it's whatever. As far as sex goes, yeah, I'm a transgender, and at the same time, it kind of helps me out because what's more American than being transgender, you know what I mean, where it's fully accepted to be just transitioned out, you know? So, but there again, it's like, people shouldn't have that problem. It's like, I worked at, here in Hollywood, I worked at a movie theater where I had to clock myself because I didn't have my name changed or my ID changed, so it was really hard because I had problems with my boss, which, in the end, I got fired, and it was because I was a distraction, you know, but at the same time, I couldn't justify that it was because I was transgender because there I was having to out myself, you know? Now, had I been fully transitioned, 'cause she knew the tea either way because of a couple of reasons, but I can't really, you know... I feel bad that I didn't fight as hard as I should have because, as an activist, you know- - [Sheila] There'll be plenty of fights in the future. - [Sethestha] Exactly, and I just hope I don't have to go through too many of 'em 'cause it's just- - Well, you may be doing it for other people, too. - [Sethestha] Absolutely. - I mean, it's interesting what you said about, what is more American than being transgender? I love that line. It's great, and it made me think about California because California is to the country the way America is to the rest of the world. It's like people go there to more fully become who they are. That's sort of been the way for decades and decades and our parents and our grandparents and immigrants and everything, and I know a lot of people changed their names. They change their names to act. I mean they change their names to show that they're somebody new, and even coming through Ellis Island, of course, a lot of our grandparents and parents didn't have any choice. They kind of shortened our names, you know, coming through, but it is sort of interesting, this point. Do you agree that this is a good place to be in a transition or to be challenging checking the boxes? - [Masen] It is. We get, and I partly say that 'cause we have a lot of folks who immigrate to the United States very specifically because it's going to be a safer place to be than in their country of origin. And so we do a lot of asylum cases, for example, at the Transgender Law Center. In fact, we just had somebody who came in from Brazil who had been horribly tortured in Brazil because of her gender identity, and we were able to get a withholding. She was about to be deported and instead will be able to get asylum in the United States. But we are getting people from around the world who are experiencing harassment, who realize that United States, specifically California, is a really good place to be, and many of us who live here in California are not originally from here. We've come here 'cause it's been a safe harbor for us as well. - I kind of, I agree to a certain degree, but personally my experience is like, being in California, because there is such a variety, it is a comfortable place. It is a place where you can express yourself, but at the same time, because of how... Like for instance, San Francisco I think would be, it depends to me where you are in California because, like I said, I went through hell in the little town that I lived in, which was only 45 minutes away from San Francisco, so that doesn't make sense to me. Now, I can go to Tijuana, Tijuana, Mexico, and be worshiped like a goddess and come back here and walk down Hollywood Boulevard and see all the little Beverly Hills blonde bimbos, you know, clock my tea, and, you know, their boyfriends just scoff at me and just, you know, harass me. So it really depends where you are in California, and it's different for everyone, I'm sure. Everyone has their own opportunities because what is passing, you know? Some people, wherever they go, they might just, you know, they may be comfortable, but does that really keep them from getting harassed or, you know, being safe to transition because, I don't know, this is my experience. - [Carolyn] I mean, the schools, you know, we are the first state to have protections for students in schools based on gender identity and gender related appearance and behavior. So I'm thrilled because that's given us an opportunity to really try to change the climate through some of the education that gets triggered when the law changes, but compared to sexual orientation, you know, most school now are beginning to, you know, well, the law's been on the books for eight years, and we're starting to see that there are some changes, and administrators understand what they have to do to protect students from discrimination based on sexual orientation, but they often still don't understand how to protect students based on gender identity and expression. So it really depends on where you are. In some places, some school districts are complying with the law, and they understand how to make sure a transgender student or a gender nonconforming student is safe in their school and has access to a bathroom that's appropriate, and they have access to a locker room facility that's appropriate for them. They, you know, are treated with... They're called by the right name and pronoun usage that corresponds with their gender identity, but in many places that is not happening at all. So we still have a long way to go, and I think it really unfortunately is sort of depends on whichever, literally down to the school site you're in. - [Masen] You remind me when you're talking. I mean, we did a survey just in San Francisco a couple of years ago, which I would say you could argue is probably one of the better places to be if you're a transgender person, and at that time, only 25% of transgender adults were working full time. The amount of workplace discrimination and under and unemployment was just incredible, and that's at one of the friendlier cities in which to live around the world. So the amount of harassment and discrimination that transgender people face, whether they're youth or adults, is still incredible. We've got a lot of work to do. - [Sethestha] Absolutely. Like even, well, I'm very fortunate. I work amongst a lot of diverse people. There's a lot of different personalities where I work, but it's still in the CNN building, and the people who work at CNN, yeah, it's their job to report news and to work for Larry, but at the same time, there are people that work at the door, you know, that I still get like, you know... I walk in knowing exactly how my outfit or how my appearance is going to affect what they have to say or how they feel about me. Inside, I really don't give a damn. Excuse me. I really don't care because I can't change how they feel. You know, sometimes I look good. Sometimes I don't. I work on the phone from one to nine o'clock, you know? It's just like, sometimes I go in my pajamas, you know, but of course I take the stairs 'cause it's not really something you want to... But anyways, the door people, like, there are two people who stayed in the lobby or in the foyer where they greet people and sign people in. I always, I can always guarantee that they will have something to say when the elevator doors close. I know. I can tell when I walk straight through the doors that these people are not used to transgenders, A. B, they honestly think that, you know, there's something about me being a transgender that they, you know, feel like I think I'm better than 'cause I've heard them. I've eavesdropped on them before, and I think it's still, I think it's wrong that, even today, these people who are getting paid to work in the CNN building of all places, you know, can have that sort of, you know, freedom to just express themselves like that, you know, without having any kind of... 'Cause I can't turn around, and, you know, I can't report them to anyone because they never said anything to me, but it's so obvious. You can tell. I mean, if I even feel uncomfortable, that says enough for me, you know? - [Sheila] Right, and I think we're putting a lot of expectation on the schools in a way because one of the places that we can get hold of people in a way is students are, you know, they're prisoners really in the school. - [Sethestha] Exactly. - And theoretically, we're hoping that we have certain kinds of education, we have certain kinds of training. We ask the school to protect the kids if they can, and, you know, that's hard enough, but I guess in a way we imagine there will be a new generation of people who will be those door people, who will be running, you know, the businesses that have to hire people, who will be themselves different in their gender expression, and I think that's why we put so much on the school. - [Carolyn] Yeah, you know, I gotta tell you a story about from last June. A student in Fresno, and I know that that Masen probably knows this story, too. A student from Fresno got nominated, her name's Cynthia Covarrubias, and she was nominated to be the prom queen at her school. She identifies as transgender. She wears boys clothes to school. She looks masculine. She still uses female pronouns and the given name of Cynthia, but she did not want to be the prom queen, and she said, I'd rather be the prom king. And she had to fight her school to be able to, with the help of the Transgender Law Center and GSA Network, and we did some advocacy, and she won that right. And it created a ton of media attention, and then at a nearby school, another student named Crystal Vera, who's a transgender girl, said, well, Cynthia can do it. Even though she didn't win, I could do it. And Crystal won as prom queen as a first openly transgender prom queen in the country. And the quotes from the students, other students in the the Fresno B, really impressed me 'cause they said, oh yeah, there's transgender people at our school. No big deal. - [Sethestha] That's awesome. - That's what we can look forward to, really. And for it to be happening in Fresno, you know, a conservative city. - [Sheila] Right, but for the rest of you who aren't in California, is sort of in the middle of the state and a little more conservative than much of the state. - [Carolyn] Right, and I think that is what, you know, someone called it a gender revolution happening in Fresno. - [Sethestha] That's amazing. - Because for students to know there's openly transgender students at my school, I know who they are, it's no big deal. They're my friend. They're in my class, you know. I respect them, and they can run for prom queen or prom king. I think it's great. - Well, I think the students were so upset at the murder of Lawrence King. We saw students from not only that high school and not only that school district, but students from all around the area come to memorials, have memorials in different parts of the state, and frankly, in the country. - [Carolyn] All of the country. - You know, it's interesting. It calls on us to really take out our own prejudice and look at it and think about it. I'm sorry, Masen. I start to interrupt. - [Masen] No, no that's, please. - Both of you. - [Sethestha] I absolutely think that it's kind of ironic how that fell into place, because like you said, just before that we were at the Saban theater in Hollywood, just talking about, you know, what we can do and what we need to pay attention to, and hearing a couple of my peers' experiences in schools and like, you know, what needs to be done. And then this goes and happens, you know? And it's kind of just like, wow, where do we go from here? - But you know, sometimes that will give you the wake up to the world feeling. - [Sethestha] Exactly. And I think a lot of the schools, like the school I went to was called Windsor High School, and I feel, it was in Windsor, California, and I think overall, they had training. I do think they had knowledge because it was one of the top high schools in California. So I think they did have training, but they didn't have the youth or the students to put the training to use, and I think because I feel like they couldn't really... They got lazy, I think. They chose not to really put protection where it needed to be because there was just one, one, you know. How can one person make a difference? - Well, let me, unfortunately, you won't believe this, but the whole hour has gone by. I mean, I just, I love it. Let me, Masen, you just were about to say. - [Masen] The one last thing I wanted to say is I think the Lawrence King situation shows us the way that we can't separate gender identity and sexual orientation because my experience is gay men look at Lawrence King and they see a young gay man, and transgender people look at Lawrence King and see a young transgender person. - [Sethestha] Exactly. - We don't know who Lawrence was gonna grow up to be. We know that, regardless, Lawrence deserve to be safe, and we have a responsibility to make sure that the future Lawrence's are safe and that we create a great state where anybody can grow up to be free to be themselves, regardless of the sexual orientation or gender identity. - I will take that as your closing argument, counsel. Thank you so very much, all three of you, for being here. Thank you all for joining us. It's a new world. If you don't know about it, it's the same world for you if you've been living it. Either way, I have to suggest, get used to it. (upbeat music)