Get Used to It: Ep. 137, "Civic Engagement"

(upbeat music) - Hi, welcome to get used to it. I'm Sheila Kuehl, and I guide you through this hour of discussion as best I can. So welcome every so often we get three of the smartest people I know in the universe together and decide that we're gonna talk about a whole bunch of things, but I have to say that this year and well into next year, of course, everybody's gonna be talking about elections and I've seen some interesting statistics about the gay and lesbian community vis-a-vis elections. So I asked our guests to come and talk about our community and whatever impact we might or might not have on these elections and what impact the elections might have on us. So to introduce my guests, Torie Osborne, who I'm very happy to say has been on the show before my best friend in the universe. And she is deputy mayor in the city of Los Angeles to Mayor Antonio Villaraigosa. She was the executive director of the gay lesbian center in LA the national task force, and most recently executive director of the Liberty Hill foundation. What a resume Torie, Welcome, really happy to have you back here. Charles Stewart, who is chief deputy to Diane Watson member of Congress been working with Diane Watson for many years though, other members as well in other parts of the state, a Bon Vivant, and a intellect unto himself, certainly knows a lot about what's going on nationally, in the Congress, in Washington. Welcome Charles, happy to have you here, Michael Kern. Who's not a deputy, anything. - [Michael] Not yet. - but is a raconteur, an actor, an activist, a writer, and an all round really smart guy, longtime aids activist. And I'm very happy to have you here, Michael. Torie let's start with you. I saw a statistic several weeks ago, as a matter of fact, I think there was a big article in the LA times about lesbian and gay people and their propensity to vote. And apparently there was a fairly big study done by, I think a group in San Francisco, 12,000 gay men, 10,000 lesbians that had kind of startling results showing that the gay men qualified to vote, not just registered, 94 and a half percent voted in the presidential election in '04 and almost 90% in the '06, not presidential election with lesbians 91% and almost 80% in the '06 election. I guess that was stunning considering we're hearing everybody else's thinking they're not gonna vote anymore. Why do you think, just to start the discussion rolling, why do you think our community shows up in such amazing percentages? - Well, I mean, and the other piece of, of course is that 77% vote democratic, which is, you know, other, that's... - True, not a surprise considering there's really only one party of the two major parties that seem to like us. - Right. Or that does anything around LGBT stuff. But, well, I mean, I guess my answer would primarily go to the fact that the last 30 years has really been the blooming of our movement, of our visibility of our participation in society as whole of, you know, coming out of the shadows and into the mainstream in many, many ways. And so I think there's probably a part of that process, that evolutionary process that, that has a, a strong civic engagement impetus, just kind of naturally as part of it. Plus the fact that lesbian and gay LGBT visibility and empowerment has really been in part, part of our movement is based in community organizing or community organizations, because we are the only minority that gets ostracized from our family of origin. We have had to create social networks, key institutions, historian John D'amelio estimates there over 10,000 organizations. You know, everything from the recovering Mormon Stitch and Bitch club to the LA gay lesbian center, to the Stonewall Democrats, whether it's social, political advocacy, but integral, to our process of emergence as a constituency, as a community, whatever word you wanna use has been this, this organizations and organizing. So essentially, you know, whether people were fundamentally political by nature or interested in volunteerism or engaging by nature, I think it was built into the DNA of our movement. And so it was easily organized. - So, if we, because of being ostracized, as you said, we, we kind of have found other families and those families often are groups that themselves become politically aware. - Right, what we need is community, right. And community, then we've institutionalized it. I mean, some are just social networks, but my point is that it's a process of engagement. &It's not just a sort of individual by individual and, and it's, and we've institutionalized these organizations, our need for collective engagement. You know, it's, you know, we go to a rally or demonstration and it, you know, we have had, every movement has done rallies and demonstrations, but ours are sort of particularly a part of our identity of finding our identity has been to create, you know, communal spaces and organizations. But my point is that embedded as the underpinning of our political movement has been a community organizing and organization. So, but, but, but, so I think that that not only are we easy to organize and, and kind of mobilize, but look at what the aids epidemic did. It created a life or death, driver, you know, essentially it was, you know, silence equals death action equals life. And so when our lives were on the lines or our brother's lives were on the lines, people became engaged, who never thought about it. They just, as they came out of the closet, who had never thought about coming outta the closet, they became involved. Now maybe it was just showing up at aids project, Los Angeles or a minority aids project, you know, or the Carl Bean hospice to volunteer, or maybe it was signing up to vote. But the political engagement, the action of being involved outside of your own little life was critical. - [Sheila] There was also sort of this dawning realization, that we could do everything we could, we could be at every hospital bed when people were dying, we could be, you know, at whatever we could open shelters for battered women on our own with no government funding. But there was that moment, really in the, I don't even know, I guess in the early eighties where we realized, no, we had to have the government too. We had to have the larger umbrella of the government funding of the change in laws of that kind of thing. - But there was always, there was always a reform. There was always a political slice of the movement, but I bet if you had done these voter, I mean, it's a little historical, cause I don't know that people would've self-identified as LGBT in the mid, mid seventies, but let's just say you could, you could go back in time and you could do exit interviews of LGBT folks. And you know, maybe you wouldn't hit the 4% that they got in '06 when they did the last exit polls. There's 4% self-identified as LGBT 77% Democrats. But, but let's say you were to do that. I don't. Well, first of all, I don't think you would have the same voter registration. I don't think you would've had the same voter, you know, turnout numbers. It that's, it, not that people, I mean, there were always a few people who, particularly in urban areas who were politically engaged, there's always been a political slice look at Harvey Milk. Right? Look at the way that voter education was absolutely part and parceled over reform agenda, that had a gay liberation piece of it. There's always been a piece of it, but this huge influx, of our community into the political system and increasingly into political office or behind the scenes like myself in charge is, you know, is a very big piece. I think of the maturation of our movement. And, and on the other side, if you look at say Bill Clinton's campaign in 92, because that was the first presidential campaign that said, well, we gotta go after these guys. You know, this is a smart strategy. I mean, I remember actually being deflated. I thought they wanted us cause we were so fabulous. And then I found out talking to people it's like when I went to Washington at GLTF and I kind of knew the inside scoop, I found out that we were part of their urban strategy. They counted on urban Jewish community, urban African American community, you know, several other constituencies. And we were a big piece at 4% of the voters. They identified voters and 77% Democrats, but you know, every single.... - But you know, they can count on us, but you've seen, I know people losing heart about him, about voting, not in our community, obviously, but other places feeling like their vote doesn't make a difference. Feeling like these guys are running the country anyway, feeling like, you know, every time the voters turn out, they're fooled by the right wing radio stations or they're fooled by this or fooled by that. A lot of people are sort of losing faith and you know, the voting percentages have been going down, going down, going down. - 40% Of the electorate is non-voters in, in the United States, 40% presidential elections let alone it's much smaller. - 40% voted in '06 of those people registered to vote only 40% voted, but in we were like twice that. Why? - Exactly but see that's the legacy of an engaged social movement, a legacy of HIV aids of learning that we can make a difference in a very short period of time. We've compressed those learnings in a very short period of time. And you know, quite frankly, I think it's, it's a combination of several things. Cause if you look at the non-voters in America, if you, if you do do a demographic breakout, it's young people, it's immigrants, it's low income folks. It's single women often in transition. I mean, that's the profile. So it's disempowered largely poor people who don't vote in America and gay people for the most part are not disempowered. As we've just talked about. And you know, it's been more of a middle class movement. So you add together some of the economic dynamics with the political and just sort of evolutionary dynamics of our movement. And you get a powerful combination, especially if you're Hillary Clinton, John Edwards, you know, any of those guys at Barack Obama, they're aggressively courting, not just our money, but our vote. - Well, the other thing though, about you, what you said about you and Charles working in government, I found there's a lot of our community that have decided to work in the NGO section. A lot of executive directors of, you know, 501C3's are gay or lesbian people or bisexual people. And certainly in government you can see. And it's also an interesting thing cause one of the right wing strategies, I think, has been for everybody to lose faith in government. Government won't do any good, government will, you know, let you down. Don't even bother with government. And again, it seems like our community has said, don't, you know, you can't fool me with that stuff. I know working in government is actually a way to get us there. Not just us, but the other people we care about. - Well, the right wing has done for 30 years as centerpiece of their policy agenda has been basically to starve the beast as Grover Norquist, put it basically to what did he say was that. - [Sheila] Baking it small enough to go in a bathtub. - That's another one, but put it, make it small enough to fit a bathtub. But then the quote that Paul Krogman had in the New York times recently was to get back to before Teddy Roosevelt, that socialist, built up big government, Teddy Roosevelt in no last wasn't even FDR, but you know, their agenda is this one of those Roosevelt's shrink government, except for the military, criminal justice. They don't even want public education to exist. So I mean it's a horrific vision and it's a terrible and, and it's anti-American in, in my view, but, but so gay people, although we had to fight our political activism deeper than just the top strata of political, as you would find in any community, those 2% of insane people that join, you know, that are active for the time they are teenagers in political parties. That wouldn't be you. That wouldn't be you. You're not by one of those. You came in later in life, but you know, the aids epidemic, even though we were fighting against Reagan and Bush, we were fighting against, you know, arguable genocide of our community, you know, the federal and so that engaged people in, in act up and in grassroots stuff. And that then became much more translated into voter the voter roles and Clinton may organized it. I, you know, I think that it's a..... it's really just a part of the evolution. - Well, let me then ask you, Michael, since we were talking about the aids pandemic, certainly was a big part of shaping your work, and certainly your life. And now that your life is longer than you expected it to be continues to be a part of it. - If I make it through this show. Which is longer than some people expect. - The show you're doing or this show, this show. No, I see. - Okay. But the, the question really sort of the same question. Do you see people more engaged in sort of civic engagement in working on these things? Naturally we have a sort of a self-interest in the sort of the aids movement, but from the point of view, even of artists and just folks, you know? - I think that it, it definitely goes back to artists sensibility. I think that those drag Queens and leather boys in on Stonewall at Stonewall that night were certain, that was certainly a theatrical, you know, manifestation of gay pride. They weren't calling themselves at that point, activists, nor were they calling themselves political, I don't think, they were just acting out of heart and soul internal drama that, that forced them to deal with this situation, you know, where they were being oppressed. I think that's what, you know, and I'll echo some of the things that Torie said. I, but I think that, you know, you had organizations, let's just talk about some artistic organizations that were not necessarily politicized other than by being openly gay or openly lesbian. But once that aids crisis hit, then a lot of these artistic organizations specifically, they had something to address. So they made this transition from being maybe, 100% artistic to having an artistic agenda, which also was politicized. In other words, the theaters then started doing plays about theater, the gay men's chorus. They started doing shows that involved the, not only the issues of being gay, but also raising money for gays and lesbians, I think fundraising was also a big galvanizing civic minded movement. Some people never thought that their dollar thrown into a bucket in a gay bar would matter. So if that matters, then I matter, I also think citing the 30, 35 years or whatever, I think that we have a sense of self worth that didn't necessarily exist previously. I mean, do I count, did I count in the late sixties and the early seventies and the late, you know, I mean, and we also had so many things that were distracting us in terms of our, just dealing with being gay. That, that I think that then the evolution comes into being and we start realizing that we are powerful. You know, it's a whole thing of self empowerment equals more, more collective empowerment as a group, as a mobilizing effort. I also, those statistics concern me only because are we also talking about in there people of color, are we also talking about people who are gay at a poverty level? Are we also talking about people who are gay, lesbian, uneducated, who still could vote? So I'd like to have the breakdown demographically of those 10,000 people, who we're looking at, because my concern is, you know, that a lot of people have been kept in a certain socioeconomic position deliberately so that they don't vote, they can't vote and they've been denied access and denied self-worth tools. It denied a lot of things just simply to keep them, you know, women, certainly the African American community in America and elsewhere. So I've, you know, concerns about that. But I think that I, I totally agree with toy that this is a, this is a part of our evolution. I also would like to see the consciousness expand, you know, beyond our sort of narcissism. I certainly understand as much as anyone the need to deal with, get issues around HIV and aids. But I think that if you are dealing with issues about HIV and aids, you also need to be dealing with issues that affect women and their bodies. You can't really separate those two things. You, if you're talking about HIV, you have to also talk about abortion rights. You, you can't, the issues are the same. If you're gonna let the government come in and control your body as a gay man, then you have to be equally on the front lines, in fighting for women to not let it happen that their bodies are being controlled. - Well, well, remember when we, the last show that we did several months ago, and we were kind of talking about whether our community is, is still so narcissistic or whether our interest in activism, our interest in government, our interest in voting is broader than it used to be. And I wonder if part of the ramping up of our community actually participating in voting is not just about us, but our own sense, our broader sense of further, maybe increased participation in community where we get that, it affects everything it affects, you know, what we eat and what is, what's good about what we eat or bad about what we eat. Whether the air is cleaned or not. I can't clean the air up myself. Right? You know, but I'm gonna be breathing it. So maybe there's been more because I noticed that we have lots of members of our community working in organizations that are not gay or lesbian oriented organizations. You know. - Another interesting thing of that is I think that the issue of having children of gays and lesbians right now, a great percentage of them raising children that expands your list of concerns. You know, you're not thinking of aids sometimes as much as you are of mold in the house, potential what that's gonna do or, you know, issues around drugs and alcohol and adolescence. I mean, so these issues, there's a ripple effect with anyone who's raising a child because it's just opening so many more doors where you have an opportunity, not only an opportunity, you have a responsibility to be civic minded in terms of being the representative of your, the advocate for your child's life. - [Sheila] Interesting. So we participate maybe more in politics because we're participating more in life than we used to. I mean, we were such a hidden factor and that really truncates the way in which you can participate. - Like you can't participate. I mean, I think that the Stonewall metaphor is great. They went, they came out of the bar and I think that that's metaphorically what happened. And then the aids movement exemplified that even further because it was literally came onto the streets and said, here we are, you're gonna have to deal with us as a political force. - And that kind of understanding and sort of admission of truth to oneself. I, I wanna ask you if you are willing, I know you just came back from South Africa and some of what you've been talking about really is the incredible denial that, that you find about aids, about the existence of aids. Will you talk a little bit about that? - Well, I think that part of consciousness just has to do with self acceptance and, and that means self acceptance of every aspect of who you are, including, you know, gay men who try to deny being a feminine, or try to deny, wanting to be a father or try to deny their HIV status or any number of things. And I think that in my experience personally, has been that I become more politicized, the more I become myself. But I also in that process become more concerned about other people so that it's not, it's not so much about me as much as it is about everyone and realizing that, you know, that my, the problems of let's use South Africa are my problems. The problems of Iraq are my problems. It's not this divisiveness that they would like us to adopt, you know, in our, in our thinking that it's us versus them. That's, what political consciousness to me is. - Well, I think we'll get back to this because we always do, you know, in terms of our kind of run delay for the last half of the show, but let me ask Charles, because we actually focused a lot on presidential election stuff, but next year, every single member of Congress is up for election, or reelection. And there must be something that involves our lives about who actually is engaged in Congress or not. And I was very interested obviously that Diane was there when we took the majority back and the democratic party. But do you see from your point of view, in terms of the sort of civic engagement in LA and the engagement in, in politics and government, do you see our community as being the gay and lesbian community as being engaged more than even in the past? - Well, considering that right here in west Hollywood, just last week, we had a presidential forum at which we had the three top democratic contenders, at least participating in most of the other democratic contenders Republicans, I think are still working, working their issues out about our issues. But, but yeah, obviously the fact that they came, the fact that we invited them, the fact that we expected them to come and the fact that they felt the need to come, I think is very, very significant and very important. The fact that Barack Obama, who, who comes from a community that is often ambivalent on a lot of issues outside of the outside of the immediate concern of African Americans was the first candidate to accept. I think that's, I think that's indicative. I think that it is certainly the case that our issues are advancing on all fronts. And as we advance on all fronts, we, we face the possibility of dilution so that it's, it's more and more important. And lucky, fortunate that so many of us are claiming our identities as open lesbians and gays, and are becoming engaged on various fronts. As Torie said, we've always been active in other organizations in government, in non-governmental organizations, in the private sector. Now there are so many more of us who are doing that, who are out of the closet, who are open and who don't consider that necessarily the only issue that they have to tackle. We old timers here, we open those doors. We open those doors. People are walking through more and more of our community are walking through and they can now enjoy the luxury if you will. But what is for them essential to their lives, of choosing what issues and what forms and on what battle fronts to fight for our issues and for our concerns. And, and they are our concerns because as we fought for basic civil rights, I think we developed a sense of values. As we fought around HIV, as we fought for our civil rights, we developed a sense of values around what people ought to be able to count on in this society, ought to be able to count on from this society, ought to be free to do in this society. And so we, we sort of cultivated, we reared our children and we opened the doors for them and we've sent them out and yes, they're engaged, they're engaged in politics, they're engaged in government. And I can only hope that that continues and goes forward. - In the, in the district that you, that represent that Congress member Watson represents and that you work, it's a district... Is it primarily, African-American still. - Not predominantly, although the plurality of voters, of votes in any given election tend to come within the African American community so that it's regarded as an African American seat in some sense, but reality, we, our district embraces Hollywood, Los Feliz, very significant Latino community in all of those areas, parts of silver lake, as well as parts of the Jewish community in fair, in the Fairfax district. We in all of Korea town, all of little Armenia and, much of, of the Filipino community is in this district. And, and yet the African American presence remains strong, particularly in the ballot booth. And I think that that is precisely because having come through a civil rights struggle as we have, we value that there are many areas where we're playing continue to play catch up in this country, but in terms of registration and getting out to the polls, African Americans match the voter registration and participation of the majority. And that's because we found we had no other choice. We had to do that. My grandmother wasn't eligible to vote in the town and state in which she was born until she was a grandmother. And therefore, after that, until she died at the age of 90 getting to the polls, and she wasn't, she wasn't willing to trust the absentee voter. She wanted to go to those. She wanted to go there and do it because it took so long to achieve and to, and to feel that she was participating at that level. - So, do you get a sense that there's something more that we need to do, though, in terms of sort of ramping up the, the turnout for voting or the interest in voting, it's such a diverse district it's sort of difficult because you might think that the Armenian community has, you know, something that it cares about in don't know whether they're as engaged. Although I noticed that a little bit further north of the district over towards Glendale, et cetera, they were deeply engaged in a couple of elections. Of course there was a guy named Corkorian running. And so that's also, I think, a way that people become engaged. - Absolutely, I think that that minority communities become engaged, because they perceive that they're engaged in a struggle. And the government certainly is a first, if not, the only battle front on which you have to confront that securing your rights at law, just as our communities still engaged in that battle> The African American community, I think considers that while many of the rights have been secured at law in implementation. When you look at disparities in healthcare outcomes, in, in income, in housing, the, there there's still a, a battle to be fought, and therefore we still have motivation to go to the polls, but I think that's true in, in many other communities as well. And certainly the prospect, the reality of, of the possibility of an African American being elected president is something that was not even remotely within my concept of what we might achieve as African Americans in this country when I was a child. So that, that is incredibly motivating and incredibly powerful. And, and I think that it will be for any, and every community as it steps up to the plate, that is a necessity to the extent that we feel. We have something to achieve, that we feel that we have a need to, to prove to ourselves as much as to the rest of the world, that we can contribute, and we are here and intend to contribute. Then, then that will draw us out. - Well, it's sort of an interesting thing in a way, I feel that many minority communities, including the gay lesbian community are tentative in the, in the sense of not wanting to hope too much for stuff, but seeing things open up, trying to take advantage of them when they open up. I mean, I think that minority communities in general are very sweet about these things. They, they have a lot of hope and they're not dashed by so many, you know, setbacks because there certainly have been, I was thinking when you were talking about Barack, right. You know, that suddenly a whole new thing has opened up. I mean, and with Hillary too, I mean, you look at it and think, could it be, and there's just this funny feeling of, I didn't wanna hope for this because I didn't think it could happen, but now it could maybe happen. So maybe I could hope for it. And of course, hope is a double edged sword because you let your heart go out too much and then, you know, you don't get it. And I think that's a lot of why people said, I'm, I'm not gonna vote again because, you know, my candidate lost or whatever. - But, but, but this, but the high registration and participation voting that you've, that you've talked about in our communities, lesbians and gays and in the African American community in other communities, I think is, is proof of the fact that even when we are disappointed and we have been, and we will be, that we continue to go out and we continue to participate in that particular way, as well, as in other ways, I do think it's important that we bear in mind that, that, that being right, having a, just cause isn't enough, you also have to be smart strategically. And I think that we in the lesbian and gay community have a lot to learn in that regard. I think that that we've, that we've made mistakes in the past. I think an argument could be made that we've, floundered on occasion in pursuing our rights and in pursuing our best interests. And that's okay. Every community does the, the road to civil rights and full empowerment is never going to be easy. And I suppose it shouldn't be, if it's going to be valued and respected once it's achieved, but it's always an ongoing battle. And it's an always on ongoing struggle, we have a responsibility to learn from the mistakes. Let's make those mistakes. Let's learn from the let's make new mistakes after that let's go somewhere else and somewhere different. I think that we learned, I think that we, that we learned, for instance, in, in many of us advocating during president Clinton's term for don't ask, don't tell we learned that maybe that wasn't the right thing for, for us to pursue. I think that what we learned in, in the last presidential election, when we had one candidate who was much better on lesbian and gay rights, John Kerry against an incumbent that was running for reelection, President Bush, and what we ended up with was we, Bush got reelected. And certainly one of the things that helped him was the fact in 11 states and in 11 states, there was a, there was a, an initiative to ban gay marriage. And the turnout in those states was tremendous. In some cases, it was, it was, it was approved in all 11 states in which it was on the ballot. In some cases in Southern states, often by over, over 75% and nine of those 11 states also voted for Bush and voted for him by higher percentages than the overall than the overall American public did. He won. He won by less than 51%, but in, in all of those nine states, he won by more than 51% with the significant exception of Ohio. And in Ohio, he won just under 51%. And yet many would contend that, that was just enough to put him over. So I think that we have to learn from that. I think that that was that in many, in many cases, some would argued that that was a Republican dream and that we have to make sure because we have allies. And because we have objectives that we, that we plan smartly, that we participate smartly, that we cast our votes intelligently and strategically in order to promote those things that are of value to us. - Well I think people have always been wondering whether they can find allies because we do not put the initiatives on the ballot that are hate monger initiatives. I don't mean just as a gay lesbian community. I mean, many of our communities, we do not put immigrant bashing initiatives on the ballot. And so can't we all just get along initiatives, don't we, you don't exactly turn everybody out, you know, to vote for them. And I think we are never quite secure that the good, moral, decent attitude is gonna carry the day. And therefore we get befuddled. I think when we're faced with these, with these sort of hate-filled initiatives that are only meant to turn people out, but it's interesting if you can't get a hate filled initiative passed in a state like California, then of course, you'll try a different initiative, like, oh, dividing up the electoral votes so that you don't have to carry it. The state of California, even though nobody else is gonna do that, right. Blue state gives away half its votes to the red, red state keep all its votes. It's a brilliant, you know, it's like one strategy after another. - And that's why we have to continue to pay close attention. And not just count on the fact that we are voting on the right side of issues to put us over. We also have to be smart. If you take a, take a look at what counts, what, what matters, what our, what our objectives are, both long range and short range, and, and understand the priority there and pursue, pursue our objectives in that kind of a way. It's not because that was the way it was done in all other, in all other movements. The certainly the civil rights movement on racial equality didn't proceed that way. And the lesbian gay communities struggle. Didn't, didn't proceed that way either, but, but let's learn from what we've done. Let's get better at it. And because our allies expect us to the democratic party needs us to be smart. - Well, the other thing is, I think that we need to know that we're making a difference. I mean, Torie, you told me in the election of the mayor, that there was quite a, a turnout for him in the gay and lesbian community. But I think I remember you telling me there wasn't a big deal made about it, that it was almost sort of like, wow, look, how many of them turned out and how many of them voted for him, but maybe we don't know that we made such a difference, you know? - Right. I mean, there's a huge, you know, Antonio has a huge gay and lesbian constituency he's which of course he's rewarded by having, you know, every Latina, lesbian and many other lesbians as general managers and in his senior staff, but, and a few gay men as well. You know, I was thinking when you were talking, one of the things that I've noticed, this is completely anecdotal. You may have pulled data behind this, but I, I make it a point of talking to young people about politics, particularly now that I have this odd midlife, you know, job foray into politics, who knows how long it'll last. But I about asking them about the presidential election, whether they're 18 and can vote or, you know, and without exception, gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgender, black, white, brown, whatever, they're all for Barack Obama. And I mean, I wanna tell you, I have never seen anything like it since my generation was for Bobby Kennedy or Eugene McCarthy, I have never seen anything like it. And it's like the excitement among young people. And I haven't seen enough written about this. There's been a little bit about it, but, and I mean the queer youth as, and everybody else, they are with their generation on this, and it's not, I mean, and it's well informed and it's about, it's about hope and it's about vision. And it could just be, you know, young people resonate first to vision. But I also think that one of the legacies of our, or one of maybe the stages that our movement is in is that the young people, young people in general, coming up straight, people coming up are all pro gay rights, right? I mean, this is totally generation. We just gotta wait for the old farts to die off. And marriage equality will be the law of the land. We know that, right. Cause under 25 it's a 70% or under 30. - [Sheila] Like my niece says 'no big whoop'. - Right? What's the big whoop. But I think in terms of political engagement now, I don't know if this means that the next, the millennial generation or whatever, they're calling this youngest generation coming up is going to be like the sixties again, I've been waiting for that for about 30 years, but, but. - [Michael] Woodstock - [Sheila] Well, we need another muddy field for a music. - [Michael] I can't wait, count me in. - I mean, I do think, And I think all the polls are that they're more engaged in the high school community service and they're more involved through their churches and synagogues. And you know, there's a lot of kind of indicators that we may be seeing upsurge of activism and civic engagement in the young generation. But what I'm so struck by when I talk to these young people is just nobody, but Barack speaks to them. And what is it about him? It's about his understanding of the world, his sense of him being sort of, of this country and yet of the world, him being mixed race speaks to them. Cause even if they're, you know, a young white lesbian, queer, is really about crossing mixed race. The young folks coming up, queer, I mean whether they use that word or not, it's, it's about multiple identities and that's what they understand under understand intersection, you know, and all this stuff. And it's so interesting and he speaks right to them without exception. - [Sheila] And they're taking leadership too. - Well, Tia's entire school could be called 'queer' - [Sheila] Your 13 year old? - [Michael] My 13 Year old? - [Sheila] Is your daughter for Barack? - She is, she, I mean she fluctuates from day to day because she pays attention and they all do. I mean, Tia's the only kid who polled the school as to whether, every parent was Democrat or Republican. This was a couple of years ago and I was like, oh no, you really didn't. Oh yeah, there's one Republican. I said, well that's pretty good. Law of averages, among 60 or so I think another reason these kids are so informed and so on top of things is the internet. Say all the negative things we wanna say about it. And there are plenty, believe me as a parent of a 13 year old, yet they are seeing the world larger than their backyard. I mean I saw St. Louis in my little yard when I was growing up, they are seeing the world. They're seeing multiculturalism, they're experiencing it. Even if they're not traveling, they're experiencing it on that internet. And not to mention the fact that they're seeing all these clips of politicians that they find them using, but something seeping in, in all that. And also a lot of them are going to schools where they're empowered. You know, they're, at Tia's school, they are learning... Social studies is the biggest issue there. And, and you know, they have elections and they have debates and they have, you know, they're learning critical thinking now is something that's being taught more than it was when we were growing up. You know? So I think that that's a big part of it too, it's expanding these brains and these panoramas of, what it is to be a human being in 2007. And that encompasses a lot of things. - Well, it's true. I've never had so many young interns in my office. I mean, so many people calling, do you find the same thing? - [Michael] Yes, we do, as a matter of fact, summer, terrific. - We're having to turn them away. We don't have enough slots. - I think people are saying, you know, I, I want, I wanna learn something. I wanna do something. I don't wanna just sit in school and talk about it. - Or the number of people who wanna go into nonprofits, the number of people who wanna do something, of course they wanna make a really good living. They wanna have a family and a career. They wanna make a really, really good living and they wanna do socially useful work. I'm going 'okay'. - Well, but you know, a really, really good living and socially useful work can go together. It's just that you don't have to be so greedy that you think a really, really good living is having, you know, too many cars, two, many houses. - Well of course they have, they come outta college, even a state university with 30,000 in Credit card debt, I mean, it's ridiculous. We've hooked them into the system through this insane financing. And this is all part of the rental. - I buy therefore I am. But still there's, there's kind of excitement about it. Of course I've seen it a lot around the healthcare issue because I've been fortunate enough to be sort of in the middle of this revolution, whirlwind, this revolution, this movement, I'm not in the middle of the movement, but I mean, many of. - Any of you guys see amazing grace? The story about Wilberforce. He was a member of the British parliament. And for 15 years it was his sole job was to try to end the slave trade to Britain. Great Britain. He just, it became a passion. It almost destroyed him because he became so obsessed. Well, Sheila is a healthier version of Wilberforce. In California. I know, hey look, this single mindedness on single payer while everybody's out there talking interesting real reform, I'm telling you Sheila Kuehl our favorite State Senator is gonna be responsible for single payer coming to Los to coming to California. And it may happen after you term out. Right. But it will be your legacy. - Oh, but I have such good members that wanna take the bill over after I'm gone. They're all like applying, you know, I mean, and the, the issue of Wilberforce was an interesting one because he was all alone in parliament. At first, everyone thought he was nuts because of the commercial activity that the slave trade was. And they listed in their speeches, all the ways in which England was going to, you know, die off on the vine because, and of course they were very, very dependent on it, but it was activism by first of all, a little band then an expanding band, et cetera. And I think that people are picking up on that too. - But it's a really good example. I mean, they focus on the individual cause the story, you know, movie's better about the individual, but it was, it is a story about somebody over 15 years who never let go of his passion on one single thing. And of course there was a movement behind him and a movement that grew and a social movement. You can't do what you wanna do on single payer without the 700 organizations, the healthcare for all coalition and the huge amount of people and, and behind you. And the time has come on, I hope, on this issue one way or another over the next five years. But I think it's, it's an example of the one person on the inside who can carry, who can be the leader of the identifiable person. But of course you have to have the social movement and the outside, the wind behind you. - It's also the cross movement issues. And I think that we've seen this before on other things, but the conversation we've been having about how, you know, people connect on things, I'll tell you, it's just like, I remember you went to a conference many, many years ago where there were representatives of the various minority communities and every one of them identified the same general issues, healthcare being one of them that's right. It was different. It was aids in our community. It was sickle cell. It was, you know, a number of issues, but they were all suffering in exactly the same way from exactly the same sort of people. But I don't think people are turning out to vote in these huge numbers that we see in our community. And I, I guess the question is not so much, why are we so different? But what I think, how can we participate in spreading that more widely in, in getting people more, to have more faith? I think it's a matter of faith. I used to say, I like those punch ballots. You know, everybody's asking, do you like the touchscreen or to fill in the dots? Or I like the punch ballots cause I think people go in there and they go, I hope this SOB does something. That's the way feel. I hope this SOB is gonna do something for me. - See, one of the reasons I brought up Barack, is because if you look at the demographic breakdown of the non voter in America, as I brought the 40% that never votes that isn't registered young people is a huge 18 to 24 is a huge swath of it. Barack Obama's candidacy, even if he doesn't end up being the candidate is motivating and activating and into the ballot box, a whole piece of the non voter. And frankly, one of my big beeps with the democratic party is their obsession with the independence, with the 15% who are independent, if they would spend just as much energy going after the non-voter, they could change the equation politically. So that's, that's part of what the, the energy and the positive appeal of Barack Obama is that he's gonna bring people into the voter booth, who haven't been there before. - [Charles] I think, that that's true Torie, but I think that the, God knows that I'm, rooting for Barack. And like I said, this is something I never thought would happen in my lifetime. But at the same time, I think that we make a mistake when we rely, when we count upon the charismatic candidate, when we rely up on a ground swell of based on faith, I think we have to do some hard calculations and some, and some figuring we are not the only movement that is growing. There are all, there is also a greater growing commitment toward, toward a narrower set of values, a narrow set of definitions around family issues, a move back to what many call a purest form of religion, and of values. And there is a resurgence in, in those communities as well. They're not headquartered here in west Hollywood, but they're here. - [Michael] And we have to be very aware of them - The Evangelical conservative Christians are only 15% of the population, but they're 25% of the electorate. - Now the clothes lines now are being devoted to pure young women, haven't you heard that there are clothes lines attracting these religious movements so that you're saying I'm abstinent and I'm, I mean, it's that, that, you're absolutely right. We have much to still be on top of and listen to and pay attention to. - I was gonna say, I'm not sure where this falls in, but I think that somewhere along the line, this issue of being political has to do with conscience. And at some point I think you, I mean, if I didn't vote now I'd have a guilty conscience. So in other words, I think that... - [Sheila] Were you Catholic? (Group laughter) - Don't accuse me of that! Call Roger Mahoney, somewhere along the line, you know, you, you can't sort of tell a teenager what to do. I mean, she's about to be a teenager, but I insist she comes in votes with me. I mean, I wanted it to be a part of her, not only consciousness, but of her conscience that you understand that this is what you do in life. You take part, you, you grab life, you become active, you pay attention to people around you, you, you know, and, and I just think that ultimately we have to follow, you know, that conscience. And also we talked about this is, is, is enjoy the fight, enjoy the process. Whether you win or lose, you're not gonna win every election. You're not gonna win every ballot initiative, but enjoy that, fight it. You know, it, I mean, I love just getting out there and, and, and saying, this is what I deserve, and this is what my community deserves. - I think it's also one of the things you realize as you get older is that you're not gonna win every battle. But the joy of the struggle, I mean, some struggles are so horrible. There's no joy in them. I mean, you can, you see them in parts of this country? You see them in other countries, as we were talking about before, I, I don't wanna minimize any of that, but simply to be engaged in a fight. I mean, the four of us, as I look around this little room, that's way, all four of us have lived our lives. And we haven't said, oh, I'm making a big sacrifice here. You know, I'm, I need to do this for the greater good. No, it's a joy. Yes. It's a joy to do it. - [Tori] It's a privilege. - Well, that would be the end of the show, but we haven't run out of time yet. - [Michael] Later! - I don't know. I, I actually think that, you know, when I look around, I think it's a really tough time for people. I mean, you're talking about joy, but I think it's a very tough time. I think finding faith in a future for social justice, for perhaps the survival of the planet. I think the dislocation that people are experiencing in their personal lives, the addiction, the divorce, the depression. I have so many friends, you know, going through so many sort of difficult times. And I, you know, we've heard me say this before. I think we're in the Badlands. I think we're in the desert. I think we're in this, like the old order is crashing the Imperial. I mean, so many old ideas and orders, sort of old ideologies, are dying. And the new ones haven't quite yet been born because it's not gonna be the way it was before. It isn't gonna be as simple as big government expanding and then little non-profits, you know, put the pressure campaigns and we get money. And then our, we, we get to bring our issues, battered women or whatever the issue is or build our community center. I mean, every formula is breaking down. I mean, I'm working in government for the first time. And my most shocking takeaway has been, I'm in the, I'm seeing the bones of the starved beast. You know, they, they talked about starved the beast of government, the right wing when they took over 30 years ago, their plan was to decrease funding except for, of course for war and criminal justice and jails. And, but it's done. I mean, I'm telling you right now, city of Los Angeles has no money. We got no money. We have no money. Every single discussion is about how we're gonna, you know, is it, is it homelessness? Is it putting a little money towards service towards homelessness? Or do we get a few more cops on the street were the most under police city in less in the, in the country. It's crazy. And at some point, some of those old conversations about progressive taxation perhaps are gonna have to come back up again. Liberals are gonna have to be unafraid, start, start talking about, I think we're beginning to have some of those conversations, but when I look from, from kind of a, look at the big picture or what I see, I think, yes, there's joy, but there's a lot of uncertainty. There's a lot of insecurity. There's a lot of economic insecurity, a lot of people aren't, aren't you, friends? I mean, now that we're in our fifties, you're in your sixties, friends talking about your, well, I thought I was gonna retire at 65. Hell no. - [Michael] Nobody can. - Nobody can. It's not just us, obviously. So I feel as if the, the, you know, the wisdom of getting older is you're able to see complexity, but it's very, it's a really iffy, it's a challenging time, - [Charles] And it's no accident Torie, I mean, the reality, we talked about the fact that, you know, the reaction to the sixties has, has brought us forth and there has been a reaction that's been ongoing. And that is, and that is reshaped has quietly desperately fiercely through talk radio, and through other means, has reshaped our values and our sense of expectations. So that now increasingly the argument is the, you know, the world is flat and capitalism is the way, right? And it will lift all boats. If you, if you, if you're willing to allow some boats to sink, right. That's really what the argument is. That's what that's really what it boils down. And increasingly what we're being taught is there is nothing that can be done about this. What you do is you train people to retrain themselves so that when they, so that when instead of working in 30 and 40 years in a, in a particular job at a particular place, as our parents did and rose into the middle class and provided more opportunity for us. Now, what you do is you expect to get fired every two or three years, you expect to have to go out, learn a whole new set of skills in an area that you've never worked before, and then go out and market yourself and you're, and, and you're expected to do this joyfully and joyously because this is the way the system is supposed to work. We're in a market driven life, right? And that's the way it is. Life Your life is about, is about the marketplace. And your life is a marketplace and you're on the market. And so you, and so, you know, you're 70 years old, just go out there and, and get yourself a new job and get yourself new skills and get back in it and just keep doing that until you drop dead from exhaustion. - [Michael] Cause you won't have a journey - That's the philosophy that now prevails. - Well, I think it's amazing though how much the national government affects that. I don't think people really connect to how until Ronald Reagan was president. There were no homeless people running around in Los Angeles. And we know that in Santa Monica. Yeah, no, no. Santa Monica, the ocean park community center was an open place for people to get help. And they have the numbers, 1980, I mean, we, we went through it 1980, it started and it was always nice. - [Torie] They cut 80% of the public financing for the hub budget. 80%. - [Michael] And the mentally ill were on the streets - But maybe we get that's why it makes a difference. Maybe not just gay and lesbian people, but maybe people are really getting that. It makes a difference. - Well, now on the street, Iraq veterans, right now. Are on the street right now, here in, in downtown skid row. Yeah. I mean, so I mean, we're in. - Along with Vietnam veterans. - Absolutely. - And the crack epidemic in south LA veterans and the heroin, you know. - And the crystal meth epidemic in, in west Hollywood, et cetera, based on grief and a million other issues. - And those are the boats that are allowed to sink. So that a few people can rise really, really high and kids saying, don't worry, kids buy a lottery ticket. You'll be one of me. - Right, exactly. - And the mentally ill and the queer and the veterans, and, goodbye. - Well, this always happens. We get to the end of the show and we've just started to just begin. Well, we don't have to end, happy so much. It's just that we never know how to end because the truth is the interconnection of all these issues of, you know, the lack of funding of how that's been sort of set into cement so that you can't raise funding and even make us more communal, et cetera, but okay. We're out of time. So I wanna thank you so much. I mean the, the range of issues and the, you know, the contributions that you make to it. I'm just, I love this show and I'm so happy that you were with us. Thank you Torie. Thank you Charles. Thank you, Michael. And thank you very much for being with us. Remember there's there's an opportunity to participate in life in your country, in your community. Just get used to it. (upbeat music)