Get Used to It: Ep. 132, "Voices of Our Lives: Troy Perry"

(typewriter clicking) (typewriter clicking) (typewriter clicking loudly) (upbeat jazzy music)` - Hi, I'm Sheila Kuehl and you're watching, or you're about to watch "Get Used To It." Every so often we interview an individual whose life has made a real impact on not just our community, but our world. And today we have a really, really special treat for you. It's the Reverend Troy Perry. He's the founding Bishop of the Metropolitan Community Church. And if you think that sounds kind of either narrow or uninteresting or whatever, wait until you see this interview. I'm so happy that he's here joining us today. He only had the time to talk to us because he's retired, which means that he's only working 23 hours a day. Troy, so happy that you're here. Welcome. - Thank you so much, Sheila. It's wonderful to be here with you. (laughs) - Thank you, it's great to have you here. We hear so much these days about faith-based organizations, about people of faith. We certainly have heard it from the national government, ad nauseum and everybody. And I think this is an issue that everyone in the country is taking very seriously. On the positive side, spirituality, the need for connection to a higher power or God within or whatever. But on the negative side, our community has suffered so much, really from some aspects of people who refer to themselves as people of faith. So I think that the story of your life as we, if we can unfold it kind of here for the viewers would be, I think not only of great interest, but great inspiration. You certainly have always been inspiration to me. So if you don't mind, could we kinda go back to the very beginning? Where were you born and what was your childhood like? Where was it, your family, et cetera? - I was born in Tallahassee, Florida, the capital, north Florida, where the old families live as they used to say. My parents, I remember I'm the oldest of five boys in my family and I had wonderful, wonderful parents. I loved my mother and I loved my father and we had a small community. Tallahassee, when I was a little boy, it was 10,000 people. Today, of course, it's a half a million without blinking an eye and still growing. But I went to junior high, I mean, pardon me, I went to grammar school there and part of my junior high years there. My father was killed in a car wreck when I was 12 years old. And it was very, very interesting, I'm one of those people who live a interesting life in that I didn't know what my father did for a living. I knew that we owned a wonderful home. I knew that we owned 168 acre farm. I knew that he had gas stations. He owned a large portion of the African American ghetto. It was called Frenchtown in Tallahassee. And my father had as many African American friends as did white friends. I mean, it was always amazed to me. But when you wake up and your dad is killed in a car wreck, and of course the Tallahassee Democrat, the newspaper comes out and tells you that your dad was the biggest bootlegger in all of north Florida. He was being chased by the police when he was killed. - Wow. I'm sorry-- - No, that's all right. No, no, I can joke about the son of the bootlegger bar too. (laughs) - Well, I'd say you either come a long way or not. - Yeah I have come a long way. But it was amazing to me. My dad, when he died, it became very rough for the family in that my father left my mother well off, but my mother was born on the farm. She hated the farm. Dad couldn't wait to get back to the farm. He had never really lived on a farm. So they moved back for six months until one day he's out building a fence and he's got the ax in his hand and my mother tells the story of he got a piece of wood stuck through his hand, had to get on a trailer, pardon me, a tractor, and drive into the little town, the closest little town, Jasper, Florida-- - That was just too far away for her. - And it was too, yes, she wanted to be back in Tallahassee, the big city, compared to where she had come from. And I remember them telling the story, my father, this cured him when he went, he was not used to this. And he was on the tractor, drove the tractor into the little town. It took him 30 minutes to get there with this board sticking through his hand. And when he arrived there, typical of my father, the doctor came, I can laugh today as I think about things in my life, but my dad, when he walked up, the doctor said, knocked on the door and the doctor said, what's wrong? And he said, well, I've got this stick through my hand. And the doctor took one look and said, well, I don't open for 15 minutes. And my father, being my father, jerked open the door and said, you've just opened. And so it got them back to Tallahassee. And it was there that I was born and I was thrilled. It was a friendly town, a Southern town. It was also there that I always tell people that I had my first sexual experiences with other Southern boys, my age in Tallahassee and where I really came to terms with I was different. And I didn't know what all that meant at that time, but I was different and I knew that. - Now what time of the century are we talking about here? - [Troy] We're talking about the '40s - Ah. - I was born in, you know, July the 27th, 1940. And for Californians, I'm a Leo . I always got up and tell people. You know, they said, yeah, we can tell, you know. But it was, it was that time period and it was a different, it was different. I didn't see my first television 'til 1953 and that was in Tallahassee. And my God, the first time I saw one, we didn't even have a TV station. Jacksonville, well would sort of drift in. - Troy, I was on television before we owned a television. - No. - I mean the same thing, early '50s. - Same things. - So times were very different. - Yeah. They were. - But now was your family, a religious family? - It was very, very interesting. They were and they weren't. - Uh huh. - Mother was a good Baptist who went to church when she was home visiting her mother and dad. You know, it was typical of the time that they would go sporadically. My father only went to church probably once or twice a year. And he was, his relatives were all Pentecostals. So we cut up and said, that was a mixed marriage in the South because Baptist and Pentecostals just didn't always get along. And so my father's funeral was held in the Pentecostal church in Tallahassee when he died. - Now I know when you were very, very young, you started preaching. So how do, how does a young man from a, or a young boy, actually, from a family that you wouldn't characterize as, you know, enormously religious, how do you even begin to get an interest in preaching? - Sheila, I love church. I was one of those kids that won all kind of prizes in the Baptist church for our sword drills, we call 'em. They loved me. And I was one of those kids that took very seriously Sunday school, those sorts of things. And I went without my parents. I just liked to go to church. And they didn't, of course, they never tried to stop me or anything from going. They loved that I wanted to go to church. And my Uncle Roy, my father's, I'm Troy Junior and my father, Troy Senior, his brother, Troy and Roy, Roy was the baby. And my Uncle Roy is in the Baptist tradition, he had a conversion experience. And my uncle was not the nicest man in the world. But when he had this experience, it really affected me. I was really, I just knew, I knew my uncle before this happened, and then my uncle afterwards. And my uncle, because I love church, when I'd go visit them on their, on my father's farm, but they were the sharecroppers on the farm. I would go to church with him as a Baptist minister. And he pastored these three little tiny Baptist churches. And he, I found out more about ministry for my uncle. It was hysterical, some of the stuff. I remember going once when to this one little Baptist church and he was preaching one of the three and only three women came to church that morning. And I remember that he got the offering. That was the way he was paid. And when he opened the envelope out in the car, I will never forget my uncle said. He looked in and there was just 75 cents in the envelope. And he said, if these sap suckers can't do better than this, I'm not gonna come over here again. It's like that. I mean, I'll always remember it as long as I live. - So clearly you weren't getting into it for the money. - No, I wasn't. - No. Because I didn't even know you got paid until I tell people at age 13, after my father died, it was really interesting. My mother remarried and, but going to my uncle's farms before she remarried, I had a real experience where I had felt called to the ministry. - So is, that's say more about that. I mean, I know that you've, you know, many times we describe our lives, but I'm interested, if you can remember and identify it, what does that mean? How does that feel? - Mine was after a lot of prayer. And I know at age 13 people look and say, my God, how do you know, what do you, what does a kid at 13 know? But you know, sometimes you really do. I'm one of those people, I think, that I was a young boy with an old soul. I loved adults. I liked always to hang around with adults, hear adults talk. So, and because I loved church, that meant I was very open to listening to people and what they had to say. And I knew somehow God was dealing with me. And I explained to people, even though it's hard to, when you're at that age, that I knew God had something special for me to do. When I told my Aunt Lizzy Smithy, these country names, I know people laugh to this day when I say it, but she helped found the snake handling churches in America. And she was a character. My mother was afraid of her. She didn't want me around this woman. (Shirley laughs) 'Cause she was afraid, They kept snakes around the house that they would take to church to handle. And she said to me, but my aunt said to me, she said, Troy Junior, she said, has the Lord been dealing with you? You know, very Southern. And I said, yes ma'am. I said, I believe God's calling me to preach. Well, I want you to preach in my church next Sunday. - I was gonna ask now how, what is that moment in the movie? You know, where Troy Junior stands up, goes to the front, starts to preach. So he was invited by his aunt. - I was invited by my aunt. - Uh huh. If it hadn't been for her. But she immediately said, I want you to preach at my church next Sunday. And this was very typical of Pentecostals. They were willing to let kids up in front of their congregations. They were not frightened by that. And they really gave them a lot of attention. So when here I get ready to go preach the next Sunday. Now I'm really frightened. I'm gonna be in front of people. And I've, you know, I'd been in front of people before in little school plays and things like that as a kid, but not really and not where I was gonna be front and center. And I remember that I took my Bible, walked into my Uncle Arthur and Aunt Sarah's corn field and I went in, I sat down and I really came to terms with, okay, what am I gonna say? Wow, what am I gonna preach on? And I kept going to a scripture about the sower sowing the seeds in Christian scripture. And for some reason that's where I felt like God had led me to that scripture and that's what I was to preach on. And I was just awful that first Sunday. When I look back, I think how they even sat there with me. But they did. And when I first started the Pentecostals, they talked back to you in service. They're like African American churches. They were when I was growing up. So they would amen me. And I thought, my God I've hit pay dirt and I haven't even got the scripture outta my mouth. So I kept repeating the scripture and, but I finished that sermon and gave an altar call as we called it in the Pentecostal church for people to come forward to become believers. And two people came forward and it was amazing. And I said, okay, I preached my first sermon. And it was like, I had finally just a taste of this, made me want to do it more. And my aunt and uncle who went to a different Pentecostal church, I preached there. And then the pastor there said, Troy, you need to just get out and preach. And so I said, where? He said, well, street corners. So I went into the little town of Adel, Georgia, took my two cousins, one who sang and one who played the guitar and they would do the music and I would do the preaching and we'd do a 15 minute service on a street corner in Adel. And I cut up and that's when I learned you got paid to preach. I had a drunk who would come up and flip pennies at me and I got all the pennies when it was over with. So I always told people that that's where I found out preachers really got paid. I mean, this is it with Uncle Roy. - And you indicated to me that in Florida, you also had your first experiences as gay man or a gay boy. - Yes, yes. - Was this before the I'm trying to get the, sort of the - It was before my father died. I started having an experience when I was nine years old with another young man who was about my age, maybe two years older. And he was a wonderful young man who went to the Adventist church, the Seventh Day Adventist church. His mother, they went to good schools. Later, a gay man in the Coast Guard and made a career out of it. And he was a wonderful, he had the biggest comic book collection in our neighborhood. (Sheila laughs) And I love going to Delmar's house to look at comic books, but we had a sexual relationship too. And it was very funny though. I said to him, after our first experience, I didn't want him to do this with my other brothers. That, you know, that I wanted to be special with us. Even at nine, I was pushy and-- - A Leo, as you said. - A Leo. And he liked, and he really was, it was so special. And I didn't see him again until I got out of the military. And when I got out of the military after I'd served term, which is a later story, but I ended up with going back through Tallahassee and his mother called me and said, Delmer is here from the Coast Guard and he wants to see you. And I was 29 years old then. And as adults, it was-- - Let me ask you though, at this stage in your life as a young teenager. Did you experience a conflict about this? I mean, it's here, you are not only are you a man of, or a boy who's, you know, who's been called by God to preach, but you are also having sexual experiences. And really, we were always told, especially in those days that it was just wrong. - Yes. - So did you have any concerns? - I had no guilt feelings about my homosexual relations until I was 16 years old. And I went to a youth camp and at the youth camp, something happened there. I and another boy were discovered having sex together. And that's when I came, I mean they came down on me so hard. For them though, their attitude was as long as it was what it was, was masturbation, no more than that, then that was perfectly all right. But I had to get married. That's what they kept shoving me. Because they viewed, they didn't believe there was a homosexual. They believed that you were a heterosexual who was doing something naughty and something that you shouldn't be doing. But there was no such thing as a heterosexual in that church. They viewed it as a, not a lifestyle at all, but something that heterosexual men do sometimes. - And did you get married? - And I got married at age 18. - Whoa. - Here I am preaching and I'm already evangelizing, meaning that I'm being invited to churches to conduct revivals, but I couldn't pastor until I married. And I ended up with the daughter of my pastor. That a new pastor came to town and when I laid, when I saw his daughter, it was just incredible because I looked, she played the piano. Not only was she attractive and not only was I attracted to her, but she was attracted to me too. All the young women in the church said, watch Troy Perry. And she said, I discovered, 'cause they were all interested in Troy Perry. And she said, and when I saw her in the Church of God, the denomination I was in, they paid a 1/3 more to pastors if your wife played the piano and she could conduct music. So it was really funny. So it age 18, she and I married and we were just kids. - Well, yeah. - She was, she was the first. I was a virgin, she was a virgin, as far as sex was concerned between heterosexuals. And they didn't tell us what to do. I mean, there was no adult eduction. - No they never did. Never told us what to do. - Right. - And for me it was, you know, what do you do? I tell people, she and I, we married, and yet these feelings wouldn't let me go. Even though her father knew about it, I'd had discussion with her dad. He had told her and, but she was determined to marry me. And we did. And we had a good life together as much as we could. But it kept bothering me. I kept wrestling, what am I gonna do? And finally, no matter what people tell you, there is no, just this is gonna go away. - Right. - It doesn't work like that in our lives. And so for me, it didn't go away. - So the marriage ended? - The marriage ended after five years. We moved to Southern California through a fluke. I was putting my way through bible college until they threw me out, when they discovered when all of that happened, that I was gay. And so I ended up with the company I was working to put my way through school, to pay for my schooling. It was a plastics firm. And they said, we wanna, we're opening a plant in Southern California, Torrance, California. And would you be willing to go out and help us open the plant? I said, well, you know, I'm gonna be in the ministry. And they said, yes, but if you could go out there, you don't know how much we would appreciate it. And so my wife and I, we moved out. I was here when John Kennedy was killed. I was working at the plant. I remember it like it was yesterday. - Sure. - And I'm looking around. I'd written the Bishop of the church that I had joined here. And the church Vow to Prophacy and said, I'm Reverend Troy Perry. And I was licensed in Illinois and here I am and I wonder, is there a church, you know, that I could preach in. And he contacted and said, yes, there is Reverend Perry. And he said, Santa Ana, California. - Wow. - He said, the pastor just had a stroke there and I need someone to go in there. And I went in and it was amazing. The Pentecostal church was very strict, but they loved me. I was the liberal pastor. The women did. - In Orange County. - In Orange County. - Right. - Because in the Church of God of Prophecy, women weren't supposed to wear shorts or they weren't supposed to wear slacks. And it was just to me, you know, they majored in minors, I always said. And my women, one day we were gonna paint the church, because you know, as we started growing, it was still largely women. And they loved me. And I said, we're gonna paint the church. I need you women to come help me. And the women said, sure. They said, well, how should we dress? I said well, if you'll buy a pair of slacks, you know, put on slacks so you're up on, nobody can say anything. They were thrilled. They'd never own slacks in their lives. And they rushed out, their pastor had given them permission to do that. - Oh wow. - And finally the day came, when I walked into a bookstore in Santa Ana, California. And when I walked into the bookstore, it was just amazing. I had, there was a magazine article that, on television, they had mentioned it and I wanted to quote from it in my sermon. And so I went into the bookstore and that's where history was made for me because when I went in, I went in to buy the magazine, but I ended up with something else too. And the first thing I did, I had never, this was not an adult bookstore. It was just a, you know, but it was a California bookstore, which means they carried things that surprised me. The first thing I did was picked up, I saw a "Physique" magazine. And I tell people, this is when they were still wearing bathing suits. I mean, but I knew something in me said, what is this about this that just eats you alive? And then there was a book. Finally, I got up the nerve to walk up to the woman behind the counter. I know today she was probably a lesbian, but you know-- - Could be. - I really mean this because I look back, I had nothing to compare it to then, but today I did. And I asked woman, do you have anything on homosexuality? And she said, yes, I've got a few things. I said, well, could you gimme a copy of whatever you've got? And she, when I got back, she put in two little novelettes and while they turned me on, they didn't really teach me anything. - Right. - But there were two things in that bag that changed my life. One was a book called "The Homosexual in America" by Daniel Webster Cory. And the other one was a little magazine printed by the oldest homophile organization in America, One Incorporated. - You see we have, although we I don't think we could show it to our audiences, but some of our set, in wide shot, show that we have these magazine covers. - Yes, I think it is incredible. - Yeah. - And one was the, when I read that, oh, One let me know there was organized homosexuals, something I didn't believe. And it was just amazing to me when I read it. And there was a article in one of those One magazine articles later that just gave me a whole different perspective on scripture and homosexuality. It was written by a former nun who had joined One Incorporated and was a writer and read an article on homosexuality in the bible. And it was incredible, because it really pushed me to rethink what scripture said. But I'm still afraid. It's very, very bizarre, and yet I'm not. Because when I get back to the parsonage and I read them, I hide the books. And-- - Of course. - Then of course I start looking around. And the next thing I do is end up in bed with a man. And he was frightened. But he was a Marine. You know, it was really, really interesting and he was frightened by me because the next morning he tried the old, old trick of, I can't believe what happened last night. - Sure. - I said, you know what you did. And I said, what I did? What we both did. And I just couldn't be shaken from that. Because when I read those two magazine, that magazine and that book, the next morning in the parsonage of my church where the pastor lives, I was shaving and broke down crying, looked in the mirror and for the first time in my life said out loud, Troy Perry you're homosexual. And I tell people that was my first born again experience outside of church. And that, I made up my mind then and there, I'm gonna, you know, I'm going to go talk to one of the officials of the church, let them know what I've discovered and now I know I've got to get out of my marriage and whatever else happens, I know what I am now and I'm not gonna lie about this anymore. - Well, it's interesting because in your life, of course, which we'll continue to talk about and see how you then took leadership and you know, established at least this one organization, one of the greatest in the world, Welcoming Church. But interesting I think for people to understand that every person's life is a struggle. Every person's life to come out to themselves and how frightening that moment is. I don't care if it's 2007 and we think it's very safe now. You know, somewhere someone's watching thinking it's not safe where I am, and we know it's not. - That's true. - And I think it's really good for people to understand how difficult it is for every single person, even the one that they see as the most empowered, as the most, you know, a professional gay person as it were and how it must be frightening even to look yourself in the mirror and say, this is who I am. Because it's kinda like, no going back on this one. - That's right. That's exactly, I tell people over and over again, that some folks, as we used to say in the early days, you know, quickly move to a big city, (laughs) you know, we're try to give a list of big cities, but it's not that simple. And as you said, where people will see this show, there will be somebody who's there who says, but you don't know my town. Well, I do. I've lived in those small towns. I know what it's like before I got to the big city, I knew what it was like. And you come out over and over again in different ways. It's just not once. It's the one time, for me it really was that one time, I'm not gonna lie about it anymore. But I still want to live, quote as a good American. I come from the part of the country where, you know, families give their kids as fodder to the military and they'd have ever since the Civil War. In the Civil War, that awful war where so many Americans died here, and I had relatives who died, who fought for the South. And so that all those stories were told to me as a kid, so I was well aware. But you know, you've gotta do it. You've gotta come out to you, if not to anybody else. Once you've come out to you, you start feeling that empowerment as I tell people over and over again. Certainly I did. I didn't know what it would ensue. My mother, when my wife and I, once I had told our district overseer about me, he immediately said, oh, this is a trick of the devil. What makes you have you molested some little boy in your Sunday school? I said, no, sir. He said, what makes you think you're a homosexual? Well, these books say I am. And I, you know, I feel comfortable with what they, oh, no, this is the trick of the devil. And he said, I had an experience like that too. Then he told me, had nothing to do with homosexuality about his experience with the prostitute in France, during World War II. I didn't know how it applied to me. (Sheila laughs) But I was just all-- - Just though it was abhorrent behavior. - Yes. That's the way he viewed it. - Right. - So I said, well, would you tell the Bishop what I've told you? And three months, took the Bishop about three months, two to three months before he came to Southern California. But the overseer told him, oh, by the way, Reverend Troy Perry came to see me. He thinks he's a homosexual. The Bishop almost had a heart attack. And he said, oh my God, if he thinks he is, he is. That was the Bishop's attitude. And he said, I want him to removed tonight. So he then came himself with two other clergy. That's what it took to excommunicate me from my church. Didn't, my wife, when I get home, I'd been to the beach and when I came home, my wife had gotte home, but she had some running around do. So she said, you go to the beach and they didn't believe in that either. So that was another thing, you don't go to bed, I mean, you don't go to the beach where there's mixed bathing with women and men. That was another thing. And I thought that was just stupid law. I wasn't going to bathe with women. I could assure them that other than my wife. And so that part of it. - But going to the beach, that was a problem. - [Troy] But going to the beach was a problem. - Right. - So I get back and immediately my wife said the Bishop's been here. Well, I knew what it was. And now it was the time. I was fixed to make this giant step in my life. And so she said, what is it about? And I said, well, I don't even know where to start. About that time he showed up. And I said, sweetheart, I said, I'll talk to you after this is over with. And I said, I'll tell you what, what it is. And so I went into the meeting. He asked me, he said, do you want me to tell you? I said, no, I don't need you. I'm an adult, I'll tell my wife. And then it's frightened him. He didn't know what to do with me. - Sure. - Because I was not acting the way he wanted me to. - Right. - And-- - No shame. - No shame. And I said, he said, get up in front of the crowd and tell 'em you feel like you failed the Lord. And said, then you can leave. And I said, okay. And he said, don't use the word homosexual. I don't wanna use that word tonight. I said, okay. And I knew it would be a lie. And I got up in front of my congregation. People started arriving. And I told my wife we'll even go out to a coffee shop, get the kids ready as soon as this is over with, that I can go in and do this. And she still didn't know I was fixing to resign. I hadn't even told her yet. And I walked into the congregational meeting who were my good members. And 15 minutes after I left, after I did what he said, they verbally had the Bishop backed up into a corner. They said until he finally used the word homosexual to describe my behavior. And everybody took, it just sucked the air out of the room. - Sure. - And then nobody said, but before that, they were saying he and his family, this church has tripled since he's gotten here. We've raised money. He's fixing to build a church here. And you know, what is this all about? And I left, took my wife, we went to a coffee shop. And it was at the coffee shop, I said, I don't know where to start. And she says, does it have anything to do with those books you found, you know, in between the mattresses, and I found between the mattress in cleaning the house. And I said, yes it does. And she said, well, she said, I read those books. And it says, there are some homosexual men who are married heterosexually and maybe we could work something out. And I said, you know, you couldn't live that way and I couldn't either. I said, I have to know who I am. - But Troy, you said an interesting thing too, among all these interesting things about also wanting to feel like you were still a real American. - Yes. - And you mentioned military service in your family and a tradition in the South. And I know you did go into the service. - That's correct after-- - Shortly after this, right? - Yes. After she and I separated her parents didn't want her to come back out to me and we kept talking back and forth, but I was busy. I was finding myself. And finally I said, I just can't come. I said, that's all there is to it. And so we ended up in a situation where I received a letter from my draft board in Mobile, Alabama. Is it true that you and your wife are no longer together and you're no longer pastoring? See during the Vietnam era-- - Two exemptions, right? - Two exemptions. And mine was 4D, the clergy classification. - You lost them both in one fell swoop there. - One fell swoop. And they said, I wrote back and said, well, I pay support for the kids. And they wrote me back and said, no, no, Uncle Sam will take care of that. We need you. And I was drafted into the military three months before my 26th birthday, when they couldn't have taken me in. And I went the military, served without any problems whatsoever. Openly gay. I would not back off from that. If somebody asked, I didn't go around all day long and said I'm a gay person, I'm a gay person. But I wouldn't back away. And I would always be honest, even in joking, always said, the GIS would say to me, let's go to town and pick up some women, you know. I said, if she has a brother. You know, like that, I always said that to them. And they would, then the GIs would talk about, I found out years later. And people who were stationed there with me, who's become, who are still friends. And they said that it was amazing. They said, you were talked about, but said, no one ever believed it. They said because he cuts up and he has this sense of humor and said he's always gotta come back with everybody. And said, all you've seen them, those young prostitutes in the town, Kaiserslautern, Germany where we were stationed, they love him. They're all over him. Said he has women. There's no GI on this base that has women. Well, they didn't realize the women were taking their breaks in a gay bar and I got to know every one of 'em. - It was a nice, safe place for them to be. - [Troy] It was a nice, safe place. They were not hit on. - But let me make sure that I leave a lot of time, or at least certainly sufficient time to talk about the founding of the church, because of course, all of that is incredibly important and interesting too. So let me see if I can lead you from-- Yes. - Getting out of the military and then what connects then to your decision to found this incredible organization. - I came back home and tried to find a church to attend. I still was a deeply spiritual person. I like to say I'm not very religious sometimes, but I'm spiritual. And I can be very, I'm one of those preachers that I totally agree with people who say sometimes the Christian Church, some aspects of it is too pushy. And I'm the first one to say that. And I say, you know, I don't want to have people coming to my church 'cause I'm preaching hell. I wanna give people heaven. And there's a difference. And I believe in a positive gospel, not some negative gospel that every little thing you do is gonna send you to hell. I don't believe that. It's hard to go to hell, I tell people. I say you gotta really work on going to hell and you gotta wanna do it. And I said, it, it's not easy to go to hell. Not like the Christian Church has taught in the past. And so for me, two things happened. I come back from the military, fall, deeply, madly in love with the man for the first time in my life. Six months later, he walked out of my life and it wasn't fair. I'd still just, even though I knew I was gay, this thing about God and religion and my parents, I couldn't find a church to go to because I was too honest. My mother said, why do you have to tell everybody you're homosexual? I said, because they asked and I'm not gonna ever lie again in my life about this. And so at church, it would always come up by the third Sunday, and I'd be frozen out of the group. And with this young man, after he walked outta my life, again, I walked into a restroom, was shaving, broke down. I'm sure it was the closest thing to a nervous breakdown I'd ever had. I was just in love with him. And he said, but you're the most domineering individual I've ever met. And I said, I'm not domineering. He said well, let me go out without you. And I said, but I like to be with you. I wanna be with you. No, I can't live like this. And he was a fine young man. And, but he walked outta my life. And as I was shaving, I broke down, just crying and said, I don't have anything to live for. God, you know, I can't talk to God, God hates me. The church hates me. My mom and dad, when I try to talk to them, my stepfather keeps telling my mother, he's not a homosexual. He doesn't dress in dresses. That was his version of a homosexual. - Sure. - And so when I cut both of my wrists, my ex-partner and my roommate came into the house when they heard water running in the bathroom and I didn't answer, they broke down the door. And I was in the tub almost unconscious. I mean, I was just very weak. Got tourniquets on my arms. Got me into clothes and rushed me to County General Hospital. Neighbors next door came running over to help them. And when I got into County General Hospital, something sparked my spiritual life really again. Even though I had my spirituality, I just didn't realize, you know-- - Sometimes when a bad things happen, when a bad thing happens, we think it must be a punishment. I mean, it's interesting to be a religious or a spiritual person. - Yes it is, yes it is. - Because if you believe in God, there's a lot of tension about whether God's making stuff happen to you. - Yes. - And here this young man walked out of your life. - Yes. It must have made you think you know-- - Well, it was so it was all so-- - Everything's abandonment. - Everything's abandonment. - Sure, sure. I mean, that's, you're absolutely correct. I felt abandoned. I mean, for the first time in my life, finally, I met somebody. He was a school teacher from Montana, a cowboy. You know what I mean? He and I were just-- - Sounds wonderful. - You know what I mean? We were a, we were a couple. And so it was, it was very interesting. But why was the hospital something happened to me and I've said this now for 38 years, since the founding of Metropolitan Community Church on national television shows all over the world, everywhere I go, when they asked about it. I tell them that once they got me to the hospital, a woman walked in, an African American woman in a nurse's uniform. But she had a magazine, some news magazine. I can't even tell you what it was, just enough to get my attention. And she said, the doctor will be here in a minute. But she said, why have you done this? She said, you're too young for this. She said, my goodness, isn't there somebody you can talk to. Can't you just look up. She pushed every button on me from my religious background. And I broke down crying all over again and she left the room. And when she did, I prayed. And I said, God, I do wanna ask forgiveness. I have committed the sin in Romans 1:26-28, not the sin of homosexuality, but the sin of I turned my partner into God and all at once, when God has clay feet, here, I am in this mess, and I asked forgiveness for that. I asked forgiveness for this mess. And we Christians sometimes talk about the joy of our salvation. And for me, there for a minute I felt so good all over again. And yet it wasn't 'til the next morning. Well, the doctor, I've gotta tell you walked in first and he was not nice. He started stitching up my wrists on both of my hands and he was the Dutch uncle. And he said, do I need to lock you up for 72 hours or are you gonna be okay? I said, well, what do you think? He said, I think you need your ass kicked all over the hospital. That's what I think. (Shirley laughs) But he says, you tell me, you're responsible for your life, I'm not. He said, you tell me. Life is about choices. He said, you tell me, are you gonna be all right or not? And I said, no, I'm gonna be all right. And Willie Smith, whose home it was with me, he was my best friend. We were never sexual partners. We were not lovers, but my best friend, it was amazing. We ended up in a situation where we lived and he took me home and he asked me, are you gonna be okay tonight? And I said, yes, I'm gonna be. Well, next morning before he leaves, he said to me, he was a projectionist here in Hollywood, and he said, are you gonna be okay or do I need to take off? Said, nope gonna be all right. And while I was laying in bed, Sheila, something happen to me. I immediately started thinking, oh my God, now I've got to pay my bills, I didn't die. I've gotta, what about my job? Oh my God, I've gotta get long sleeve shirts. I've gotta hide this. They would fire me. - Totally inconvenient. - Totally. - But, thinking about the future. - Totally. But thinking about the future. - Right. - But something happened and all at once I'm laying there I'm thinking about what had happened. You replay it again in your head, and the night before. And all at once, I remembered that woman with that magazine and my prayer. And I all at once felt that wonderful joy again. And then it dawned on me. And I said, God, this can't be you. You can't love me. I'm still a homosexual that hasn't changed. And the church has taught me you can't love me. And with that, I tell people all these years later that God spoke to me in a still small voice in my mind's ear and said to me, Troy, don't tell me what I can and can't do. I love you. You're my son, and I don't have stepsons and daughters. And with that, I knew without a shadow of a doubt, God loved me, but I'm a practicing homosexual. - Well, that is , that brings tears to my eyes because I think the moment, there's a moment or two or three, if we're lucky in our lives where we really do understand. - Yes. - And it doesn't even always stay. - That's right. - You know, there's a moment of clarity. - A very, very-- - I think it's what people mean when they say God doesn't make any mistakes. - That's right. - When you say, I have no stepsons or stepdaughters - God doesn't create garbage as we always say in MCC when we have to fight the religious right. - Right. - But for me, it was, it was the most pivotal moment of my life. I've been invited to the White House, all kinds of things but this event in my life so changed me. And the next thing that happened was I start dating somebody. But then I start thinking, oh my God, you know, and I'm trying to go to church again. Can't find any place to go to church. Well, I start dating and I date a young Hispanic man. We go to a gay bar in Wilmington, California, first gay dance bar in the city of LA . And my God go there one night, and he walks to the bar purchases both beers, brings me back mine. The police come over and arrest him and my best friend for lewd and lascivious conduct. One had slapped the other one on the rump. That was the crime while they were telling a joke, because it was so funny. And it took-- - Now what part of the century are we talking about here? - You're now talking about early 1968. - Right. - And here I am all at once in a situation of where when I get this young man home, after I bail him out of jail and we bail out, a group of us went to the Harbor Division of the LAPD. Scared him to death. The owner of the bar walk, Tim says we're here to bail our sisters out of jail. And I was just taken back. I mean, that's not how I would've talked. And they said, what's your sister's name? Bill Hastings and Tony Valdez. And it was, we got them to, they kept losing them in the system. Back then our police department was one of the worst in the nation. And when we got him bailed out of jail, though Tony said to me, when I got him back the house, I'm trying to talk to him. And he broke down just crying and he said, I've never been treated this way in my life. And he said, the police officer said to me, he says, he spoke in Spanish to me and told me, I'm gonna call your employers and your family. I'm gonna tell 'em all about you. And he said, they're probably gonna make me lose. I said, Tony, he's bluffing you. I said, he's not gonna call your employers and he's certainly not gonna call you parents. Well, I'm not so sure of it. There's anything I've learned from this experience nobody cares about a queer. That's the word he used. And I said, Tony. I said, even if I believed that people don't care and I don't believe that, but even if I did, God cares. Now all at once, I'm a Christian again. And so I wanna start talking to people about that. - And a little preaching too. - Little preaching. And so he says, no Troy, God doesn't care about me. I went to my priest when I was 15 years old, I told him how I felt and he ordered me out of Catholic Sunday school. He was afraid I would contaminate other children. He said, no Troy, God doesn't care about me. And he said, would you take me home? I took him home, came back, played, replayed what he said in my head, went up to my bedroom, and knelt down and prayed. And I said God, you know something, I've got a revelation here. I said, there must be people like Tony. I've tried to go to church and I can't find any place to go. You called me to preach. Now I've always been taught you knew me in my mother's womb. You told me, you loved me, not in spite of my homosexuality, but you loved me. I was your son. Now, if you love me, you must love other people. That was the revelation for me, that then God had to love other gay people. And I said, Lord, I said, maybe you called me to preach and I've been preaching and I'm so hungry. I said, maybe, maybe I need to just start a church. There must be people like me out there. I said, and just let me know when, if this is your will. Small voice in the mind's ear again, now. And with that went to the bar owner and said do you know anything about this gay newspaper "The Advocate" that they throw away here, you know, and there's four pages in it. And he said, yes, I said, he said, I do. They're coming right now, he said to meet with me. I have to renew my ads with 'em. I said, then I wanna talk to him. And so when Dick Michaels and Bill Rand, the names they used at that time, they didn't use their real names. - Right. - It was amazing to me. They, when I came in, they were just immediate, their idea of religion, I don't know what it was, but they were not interested in selling me an ad. And they said, why? There's a lot of charlatans in the gay community, I said. Tell us why. Well, I just testified to 'em. After about 30 minutes, they said, look, we'll give you the first ad, if you'll buy few more. - If you just stop. - If you'll stop. And I said, absolutely. And the bar owner put up, permitted me as people were leaving, I had an ad here, Reverend Troy Perry and a photograph of me. And they, it was very, very interesting. The ad came out in "The Advocate" and here Reverend Troy Perry. Gave my home address in Huntington Park, California. Went home and my roommate had a heart attack, Willie Smith. You mean you have taken out an ad in a gay newspaper with our home address. He said, you are the craziest, why this religious thing you're so caught up in. He said, nobody cares. He couldn't, Willie said at first, I just couldn't get through to what Troy was trying to say. He said, why would any gay person wanna go to a religious group to a church? Why would they wanna go? He said, all of us have had problems with it. I said, I don't know. But I said, God has called me to do this thing and I'm gonna do it. - Do you think it's interesting so many of these organizations started in LA. - You know-- - I mean we did, as you said, we gravitated to the large cities and that is one of the reasons. We gravitated to the coasts. That's another reason. I mean, certainly there was a, the ability to stay alive instead of, you know, getting killed. But still LA seemed to be such a creative place for so many of our organizations. - I think it was Hollywood, movies. I think it was World War II. I think all those gay males who came through here being shipped out to the Pacific, ended up coming back through here when they were let out of service and they looked around and thought, I need to be here. I sometimes say that, and I learned very quickly in California, 'cause we had some of the first demonstrations here too. - Right. - I led demonstrations downtown before Stonewall. - Right. - And people don't get it sometimes that, here, oh, it was easier being gay in this regard, I wasn't near my family. - Right. - And mom and dad, mom and my stepfather had left and gone back east. And so it was, it's just different. And I think like you said, there are creative people here. Some of those early people were writers in the movie industry, television, all of those. And this is a city that, where people could come, where you could be an individual, even though you couldn't be a homosexual. They view it, people do a little differently in California. - Right. - And so for me, this has been one of the most creative places in the world. I tell people that after I founded MCC, you know, in 1973, I was named to our Human Rights Commission for the county of Los Angeles. Within four months, we added sexual orientation to our county charter by vote. And it was done without, I mean, you know, we had the votes there. It was done unanimously. - Did you find some resistance in the gay community to actually trusting a place of religion? - It was-- - I mean, it was so welcoming and people seemed so, I'm gonna use the word relieved. - Yes, yes. - Relieved to find a place where they could be whole, you know, instead of parking your religion over here so that you could be gay over here. - I've heard this story over and over again from people. They said, the first time we heard about a gay minister, a homosexual pastoring a church, we said this is some queen playing church. (Shirley laughs) That was the first reaction. And people who came and drove around the building wanting to see what they looked like, the people attending church. they drove around the building once, twice, three times, four times, five times, and then got up the nerve because they could, they kept looking and they kept saying, well, that can't be the crowd. They don't quote, look like the stereotype of gay people, because we were serious. All of us wore suits when we first started. - Sure. - And all the women wore dresses. Then, you know, as we went on, we didn't care. I mean, we said to people, we don't care whether you wear cotton, linen, or lace or leather, you're all welcome here. And I meant that. And I, they, you know, people have told me who never joined MCC that they used to come, one man described it as the most elegant, he said service I'd ever seen in my life. He said, you're an incredible speaker. And he said, you're choir in robes said, I mean, you know, when you had bought that building down at 22nd in union with the balcony, two auditoriums and the balcony and it was packed to the rafters. And he said, there was just something about Sunday morning, he says going there, that was just incredible. And he said, you were just two things. And he, of course he had heard me say this. Well, he said, Reverend Perry what you said in a sermon one time: I was faithful and I was fearless. Those are the two things that I tell our church we have to be. I said, those are the two things we have to remember. Faithful, be true to ourselves, whatever we'll be, true to God, true to what we believe, but be fearless. Nobody's gonna stop us from doing the work we need to do to make this country different and then the world different. And of course in my 36 years of being moderator of our denomination, thank God I was both of those things. And the things that really upset me was when people murdered people in my denomination. To this day, I think there's something about seeing people who believe what you say, die believing that, but are martyr's to our movement. - Tell me a little more about that, Troy. I know it's difficult, but I think it's important for people to know. I don't think people know that your churches have been burned down. I don't think people know that your congregants have been, you know, murdered. - Murdered. Always tell people that I had, God had spoke to me, and let me know I was to move to really be full time with my denomination. So announced in the LA church, I said, I won't be pastor here anymore. I wanna build the denomination. I wanna make sure that it grows too. We've got all these churches that are coming in and I need to do that. And I remember that I, in 1973, January of 1973, in December, I'd announced in '72, that would be my last year with the church. I believe in giving people, they knew, I gave them a notice, you know that, and January of that year, our LA church burned down to the ground here. And you know, I always look back to that as the start of problems. And we went through a real period. Next one was Nashville, Tennessee. Our church was arson, burned down there. Somebody set the fire on church in San Francisco, California, and then wrote, you will die with an arrow at the pastor. And I flew up as I always did. It was very interesting, Diane Feinstein, she and her first husband came to us and she was, you know, she was on the Board of Supervisors there, not the mayor of the city. - Right, right. - And she, that wonderful Jewish woman and her Jewish husband donated the first money for us to buy a building in San Francisco. - And I... The real thing that came up, was finally on Gay Pride Sunday. I'm at the beach, 800 of us out doing our wiener roast and feeding everybody out there. And that night the police helicopter came along. We're all there, cause we're still singing and all. And they come in the file and they tell us to leave the beach And we waved at 'em and we did. I said the benediction, we left. I went to hear gospel singers at a gay bar here in West Hollywood. A first that no gay bar ever had a gospel group, so I wanted to be supportive. And then I get home, and there's a note on my door that says you have to call Reverend John Gill said the district coordinator, it's an emergency, something about a fire in New Orleans. And when I got into my home, the phones were ringing off the wall. And I got into my phones and immediately someone called and said there's been a bad fire. It was John. He'd just kept calling. And I said, what's wrong? And he said, there's been a fire in New Orleans. There are 32 people dead. And I said, 32 people are? And he said, yes, and it's 12 members of our church. They were in this gay bar. A man had donated an air conditioner and they were there to accept the gift. And they had used this bar that had a little theater in it for worship service. But they had just got their own little place to worship over on Johanni Street in the city. And immediately they said, I said, how bad? He said, who? I said, what about the pastor? And he said, he's dead. And the assistant pastor and his partner died in the fire too. They had left their kids at a theater to see Disney films like people used to do in the South 100 ago. - Sure. - And kids were safe. Everybody looked after everybody's kids. And they were both part of that. And I flew into the city and the one thing, the police before I could get there said, this was a place where thieves, burglar, and queers. And we can't find out who they are because you know what I mean, they don't carry IDs. Well, by the time I hit the town, I had and I have talked, I immediately found out what the truth was. And I called the FBI office and the FBI had been called in and they had removed, the only thing left where the jaw bones of people, the bones were seared to the floor. It was the most awful fire. Most of them had died of smoke inhalation, but our pastor had died hanging out the window. - Yeah, that's terrible. - It was just awful. And to end this, I tried to get a place to hold a Memorial service. And I couldn't until finally, thank God, somebody said, have you tried St. Mark's Methodist church. And so they have a Black pastor with all white women on their board. And I went over there and they let us use their property. And, but the awful part was fighting with the gay community. The gay business owners in the Vooku Rayon on Bourbon Street came to town and said to me, you know, why are you holding these press conferences, et cetera. It scared them to death because I was putting spotlight on them. Morris Kite was with me. Marty Manford from New York City flew in. And then John Gill, our pastor and another Paul Britain, who is a pastor of the New York City church, but worked for Social Security, so he knew how it all worked. And it was the first time ever that the gay community, The Advocate, we were able to raise money to bury all the bodies. But the city refused to let us bury the three people who they couldn't find their identification and they insisted on bury them in a pauper's grave. And we-- - Let me ask you, because time runs so short and you know, it goes by so fast and it does in life and it does in it does on this show as well. - Yes. - And I think through the course of talking to you about your life and the founding of the church and the ups and the downs. - Yes. - Which there have been, and I assume will be. - Yes. - I just wanna ask you a sort of an obvious question, but just since there's only a few minutes remaining to close the show, was it all worth it? - Absolutely. I tell people today that there are few regrets that I would've done things a little differently. That's human nature. We all do it. But I'll tell you, I wouldn't change my life with anything in the world. The bad times, the good times. I remember the good times. I also remember the bad times, but those don't play up front in my life. I wanna remember the good times. - You've touched so many people's lives. I mean, people you don't even know as I'm sure you've recognized. The church has grown and grown and grown. It's such a welcoming organization, a welcoming church. Certainly not just gay people going to MCC church. - No, that's true. I mean, heterosexuals too. - Everybody of every, you know, stripe. - Right across, that's right. - I think you've done more than many, many people I know, to sort of cause that convergence of God and gayness. - Yes. - That has given us all I think a lot of hope. Are you still doing your work? It's not really retirement, is it Troy? - I'm still doing my work. I, when I, I've made it my business to go out of the U.S. and every country I visit now, I visit with local gay groups to encourage them. I visit with politicians. Everybody wants to meet with the president of Brazil. But the last minute he couldn't see me, but I met with cabinet members. That's Willa's loss I'd say. - That, you know what I mean? It is, it is, I continue doing it. And this year, Philip and I are going to China and I plan to meet with the gays and lesbians while I'm there, and try to meet, I don't mind this. I'm not a, have never been a communist basher. I don't get caught up in that nonsense. And mine is to see if I can meet with politicians too there. And luckily the title Bishop opens a lot of doors for me to get in visit with a lot of people all over the world. - Well, it's been wonderful talking to you. It's as I said, you're an inspiration certainly to me and I think to so many people in the world. Thank you very much for joining us and for listening in as Reverend Troy Perry talks about his life. And I guess the main lesson for me is the sort of the ability to be united, to be whole as an individual and to "Get Used To It". (upbeat music)