Get Used to It: Ep. 104, "Senior Housing"

(typewriter typing) (funky music plays) - Hi, welcome to Get Used To It. I'm Sheila Kuehl, your hostess of the day, of the week, of the year of, for pretty much always on this show. And we're very happy to have you join us today because we're gonna talk about an issue that is of grave concern, I think around the country for virtually every American and maybe as we'll see today, most especially for people in the LGBT community, and that is housing, shelter. One of the basics that everyone needs, but escalating costs, shrinking amounts of housing, certainly affordable housing. And today we wanna explore the impact that this is having on the gay and lesbian community, if it's any different from anyone else, which we'll see. My guests today are Ivy Bottini, who is one of the founders and a board member of the Gay and Lesbian Elder Housing Corporation, here in Los Angeles, longstanding activist on every issue that our community's ever faced. Welcome Ivy, happy to have you here. - Good to be here, Sheila. - [Sheila] Thank you. And to Ivy's right, my left, Brian Neimark, who's another founder and the Executive Director of the Gay and Lesbian Elder Housing Corporation. Welcome, Brian. - Thank you, Sheila. - [Sheila] Thank you for being here on the show. - Thanks for having me. And my third guest is Pam Snowden, also a longtime activist with our community. She is presently the Coordinator of Housing and Economic Development for council member Jan Perry, here in the city of Los Angeles, and formerly was an assistant city attorney for the city of Los Angeles, welcome, Pam. - Thank you, Sheila, welcome and thank you for asking. - Delighted to have all three of you here. Ivy, I wanna start with you. - [Ivy] Okay. - I don't know whether this is much of an issue for our community or not, as in different from other communities. Certainly in the legislature, we hear a lot about the need for affordable housing, for rental housing, for people to be able to own, for retirement housing, et cetera. And so, start with the sort of the particular, are there particular needs for our community? Specifically, perhaps for those aging in our community? And if so, how did that come to your attention? - Well, it kind of came to my attention about 20 years ago. When I was talking to people who were getting older and I was hearing horror stories about trying to go into a retirement home or convalescent home. And they had to go back in the closet because if anybody knew they were gay or a lesbian, they'd be ostracized, or if they had a partner and tried to go into a retirement home, they couldn't be in the same room together. (Ivy clears her throat) Excuse me. And it just sounded terrible after someone has lived their whole life as a gay, lesbian, transgender person and they have to go back and hide. It just seemed cruel inhuman. So way back, oh, 20 or more years ago, Project Rainbow. Excuse me, did I nearly hit you? (people chuckle) - [Brian] Yeah, that's okay. - I'm dangerous. Anyway, Project Rainbow, we had a committee going and there were about 20 or 30 names on it and that's how far back someone brought that list to me and said, look, you know, there's your name. And I had forgotten that, and then over the years, I've tried to work with various groups. The last time was maybe seven, eight, ten years ago, probably eight years ago, trying to work with C.O.O.L, coalition of older lesbians. There was some interest there, but we could never get enough interest to sustain it. And it just felt like our community is, is so nervous when it comes to age. You know, I mean, we've always, we don't wanna talk about getting older. You know, the guys, you know, I, I don't wanna think that I may not be this gorgeous all the time, and the women don't want to think about it either, for basically the same reason. And so it just seemed to, it was like silly putty. It kept slipping away every time we get any group together. And then about two years ago, maybe a tad over. John Forney, from the gay and lesbian center, at the village, he called and he said, "You know, I'm having a lot of seniors needing housing. So, they need emergency housing. Sometimes they're not getting along with their partner. There is nothing and so maybe we could get some people together." And I said, "Fabulous." So, I gave him a whole bunch of names of different people I thought should be invited. And lo and behold, they all showed up. There must have been 20 or 25, I guess in the very beginning. And this young man he showed up. So, we met in that larger group for about six or eight months, and then people started to drift away and I thought, oh, no, no, no, we're not gonna go through this again. But the ones that stuck, stuck. And then we, we finally decided that we would apply to the state, to see if there was any money, so that we could find out what the need was. And yes, there was. And we worked with the, what was the Department of Aging on the state level. And they came through with $90,000. - Is this to do a survey? To see if there were particular needs? - To hire someone, 'cause by this time we needed a staff, there was just too much to do and to then do a survey. So, we did a rather extensive survey and there were lots of questions, but the two questions that, or the one question and the two answers that stuck out for me was the question was, who do you have that can take care of you in your old age? And 72% of the gay men said, no one. And 37% of the lesbians said, no one. And that was staggering to me. I did not expect that high a ratio for either one of those and that spurred us on. I mean that whole survey just gave us the impetus to, we have to do this. And so, we began working and then we formed an actual nonprofit cooperation and we've been going from there. And then, we found this wonderful developer. Woman by the name of Lo Sprague, introduced me to Mercedes, and she was with McCormack Baron and Salazar, turned out that her partner was one of your ex deputies. And when you were in LA and she turned out to be this gift, you know, from the heavens, from the universe, who was, had wonderful ties and was part of this developing company. And she only wanted to work on special issues and this being one of them. And so, suddenly we find ourself being propelled, you know, it started to take on the life of its own. And so, at this point, we have an office in Brian's house and we're looking for some office space because we're really outgrowing his house. - Now, do you know of other projects that you had communication with? I mean, it sounds as though it's, it's almost an isolated project at the moment. I mean, to have to sort of develop the information about why we need it and you said that there were lots of horror stories, even going back as far as, you know, as 20 years, what kinds of issues do seniors in the community face that they might need to even seek, I won't call it specialized housing, but more, you know, gay friendly, sort of elder housing, what kind of issues do they face? - Well, I think they face kind of a common issue and that is one of isolation. I don't think that differs too much with the general public, but I believe they face special issues in having to be able to be who they are and be surrounded by people, their peers, that they can feel totally comfortable with because it's gotta be awful to be living somewhere where, you know you are hated. I mean, that's got to be absolutely awful. So, we do need something special for the seniors to have that, where there can be special programs. There can be, there will be space for a percentage of space for people with AIDS. We will be taking care of both the men and the women. And it really is funny because some men say, no, I don't wanna be with lesbians and some lesbians, well, I don't wanna be with you either, but the vast majority, you know, is fine. So, we have those little quirky things that we deal with. But, I think the big thing is the closet, is to be able to grow older with dignity. And so to me, that's one of the biggest reasons that we need this. And you asked if there were other places, actually, no. There's SAGE in New York, but they don't have anything like this. There's a group up in San Francisco, that's trying to get something. And I think Brian, you know of one or two others across the country, but what we are planning on doing is packaging this and kind of sending it across the country to help people, to show them the steps that we went through because there really, I mean, it could be a formula, because there were definite things we had to do. - Well, Brian, it's interesting to see you involved in this. Obviously, we always assume that people are interested in issues that are about them. And I look at Ivy and I think, well, yeah, you know, maybe Ivy's interested in seniors and I certainly have the same experience. I'm thinking about, you know, what, what am I gonna do, will I be able to continue my house payments when I can't work anymore? And the answer's gonna be, no, I'm gonna have to go somewhere, but what is it that got you interested in this issue and what is your involvement at the moment? - Sure, I get asked that question a lot, being younger and I do have a background of coming from the entertainment industry and I guess in my life personally, I got tired of making a, another I'm a bad movie, part five and spending $56 million and wanting to do something to make a difference. And then something personally that happened to me was my grandfather got divorced at 83 and to make a long story short, he got himself into a situation and he ended up needing help and we, my brother, my parents and myself, had to go down to Florida and help move him and move boxes and hook up TVs. And it really got me thinking who would do this for me if my partner passed away, or if I didn't have kids, I have nephews who I'm very close with, but 50 years from now, you never know. You never know what the relationship will be. And that's when I started looking into what was available for gay and lesbian older adults, what are the opportunities out there for them and learning about like what Ivy talked about, individuals having to go back in the closets. And in addition, caregivers not wanting to take care of individuals, not wanting to bathe or dress an individual, 'cause they found out they were gay or lesbian. A story about a man that was very touching to me. Two men in a older adult facility were kissing in a room and the nurse walked in and she saw them kissing. And because the man was not out to his family, the next thing you knew, he was strapped down to a gurney and sent off for mental health testing. They thought dementia had set in and that is not how I wish to live my remaining years. And I'm sure many of the people before me who had fought so hard for all the rights and freedoms that I've had the advantage of having today, wouldn't wanna see that happen either. Have us, you know, regress to going back to how it used to be. And that's when I started researching this issue, while still working in entertainment and really reading more and more about this. And I did discover, I did look at this originally as a for-profit venture. And as I did, as I met with groups out there and there's many groups out there doing it, or I should say attempting to do it on a for-profit level. I know of one or two that have actually been successful, but you're talking about homes at $235,000 or care facilities for $3,500 a month. There's just not a market just yet for that. Ivy always tells me a fabulous story about how her friends, many of 'em may have been in marriages and got divorced at 40 or 50 had never worked before in their life, were thrown out of their families, the kids were taken away and they had to start working at that age. And a lot of 'em became truck drivers. So they could drive from rally to rally fighting for gay rights. And you know, years later it didn't have a huge pension plan. - [Sheila] That's right. - So. They didn't have that kind of money to, you know, afford $3,500 or $2,300 a month for care. And I realized that this was really where the most tremendous need is in our community was for affordable housing, which is how I ended up going to this meeting at the center, 'cause they gave us some space at the village to hold a meeting, to find out more about what was being done here in Los Angeles. - Well, that's still not ending up as executive director of the whole project. I mean, that took, that was a big step. - It was a very big step. When we applied for this grant, the governor had set aside $14 million for groups to come up with ways or initiatives for individuals to age in place. And like Ivy said, our group applied for grant. We received $90,000. We were asked to do a study, in which we were to focus on developing social services and housing for gay and lesbian older adults, and it was supposed to be just a study, and it did open up Pandora's box, once we started doing that and in asking the questions, people were willing to answer 'em, but then they also wanted it, the need fulfilled. So, I worked with many social workers and we developed a program called Out of the Closet and Into Your Agency, where we went around town and we spoke to many caregivers and social workers and groups and said, look, whether you realize it or not, there's approximately 75,000 gay and lesbian older adults in this city based on what our research and estimates have shown us. They probably come to your facility for care and you need to be aware of that and you need to be sensitive to their needs, and don't just walk up to them and say, ma'am, would you like your husband to be here while we go over some options, when they may have never had a husband and now you've just shut them down. And as we did these sensitivity trainings, I, this is when I learned more and more about people who have gone back in the closet and I don't wanna pick on the entertainment industry, but we did go to some of the developments that they have in the entertainment industry, which is probably one of the most open environments in the world, even in their facilities they shared with us, well, we know we have individuals who are gay, but they won't tell us. And I thought, wow. - [Sheila] You mean like the motion picture home? - [Brian] Yes. - Wow. - They said, didn't wanna say the name, but- - I can say it, it's in my district, I represent them. And I mean, I think that it's not a way of castigating them. I mean, I think that a lot of people say, well, this is just not an issue I ever thought about or not an issue that ever came up. Why don't they say something? And I guess you wouldn't know what to say because you don't know exactly what, you know, what to say about the other residents. Other residents make an assumption, as you said, you know, well, is your husband already gone or et cetera. It is a difficult situation. - And it was a big concern for me to see that, especially in like, you know, in the entertainment industry. And I thought, well, if it's happening here, it's for sure happening in Tulsa, Oklahoma, and it's happening in all these other places where it's much more conservative. And you know, we did teach people to change their forms, to say, you know, from married and single, to married, single, divorced, widowed, and told them to listen for things like, as they're talking, if somebody says, well, we all went to the movie or they came to visit me, ask who they is, learn who the people are in their lives, so that you can get an idea and make it comfortable for them to share with you because let's say they lost a partner and they're depressed, but they're not willing to tell you they're gay and they had a partner of 50 years. You've just cut out so much of their history. And you'll never discover why they're depressed because they won't tell you or that they don't feel comfortable living in this environment. And maybe you as a caregiver could help them by putting them in a more safe environment where there's celebration and safety and acceptance of who they are as an individual. - So now, there's a physical project, a building or planned, what stage are we in at the moment? - We actually, well, I, to go back to your question, I was gonna say jumped when we got the grant from entertainment to being the executive director, worked with this agency and we actually just acquired the land. It's at Selma and Ivar in Hollywood. And we have received about $5 million from the city of Los Angeles and we're now in the point where we have the majority of our financing, we're waiting on an additional grant to come in, and once that is in place, we should know that by December, January, we hope to break ground in May and then be open in about December, January, December 2005, January of 2006. - [Sheila] And it looks like it's going to be a really comfortable, lovely place. How many people are we projected to be able to house there? - Well, it's 103 units. The majority of the units are one bedrooms, full apartments. There are some two bedrooms for couples and not that couples couldn't live in the one bedroom as well. Or let's say if an individual has care, a caregiver living with them. And so essentially, you could go as high as 206, you know, if you doubled up on all the rooms, but I mean to be safe, 103, plus it has about a 6,000 square foot social service and recreational center for gay and lesbian older adults that will be built on the property. So, that way you're not only servicing this 103 units, you're servicing the 75,400 other individuals in the city who may want to come and partake in activities or come and speak to somebody about, you know, I have some case management needs and we will have, we'll be able to refer them to agencies out there that we have gone and done sensitivity trainings with and send them somewhere where they won't be met with homophobia. Or we have Project Angel Food is one of our collaborators. And they're gonna provide a meal program for residents of the building, as well as those from the community coming in. - Now, what's the difference between for profit and not for profit, you were talking about price, but in a not for profit, you're saying that it's possible to actually make the units affordable. - Affordable housing is of course, based on the individual's income, the way our building is structured, is it's a percentage of market rate and it starts as high as 60%, 50, 40, 30, 20% of market rate, which generally for that area is about $1,100. So depending on what the person's income is, and for which level they qualify, it would depend on what their rent would come in at. - So these are rental units not for, to acquire. - That's correct, that's correct. And our building has set aside 30% of the units for special needs population, for us the special needs population is comprised of two categories, homeless, or at risk of being homeless, and those living with HIV and AIDS. For the majority of the units, there ages 62 and older, but for the special needs population, it goes as low as 55 and older for the individuals to be able to move in. I do wanna make sure that it is clear though, that this building is not limited to gay and lesbian older adults. It is open to anybody who is interested in living in environment that where they are accepting and they are tolerant of individuals of all lifestyles. - Sounds wonderful. - [Brian] Thank you. - Well, Pam, this must all sound very familiar to you, being with the specialty in housing, working for a city council member, is this very different in terms of the needs of this community from needs that you see across the broader community. - Actually, the needs themselves for shelter are not different. It's the way that the need is met or not met, the specifics, as you pointed out earlier, Sheila, shelter is obviously a very basic need, whether you're thinking in terms of a long term shelter or short term shelter. For instance, people who find themselves in transitional situations, let's say a divorce or a breakup or a refugee from domestic violence or a person who's struggling with mental illness or perhaps substance abuse. When these people find themselves looking for a residential shelter situation, if these persons are LGBT, then the isolation and the prejudice that you brought up a few minutes ago are issues that have to be contended with. So, these issues cut across sexual orientation. They cut across age, they cut across income, except for those at the very top, who at the position to buy, who have the resources to buy whatever it is they need and create their own, their own special situation. Gay and lesbian, LGBT foster youth, emancipated foster youth, who find themselves in group living situations have to contend with these kinds of issues. So, it's also just in terms of resource challenges, people who are, let's say, single persons or single parents or families with children, who are not, who don't conform to the stereotype that the media sometimes puts out as our community of being composed of high income, double income couples with no responsibilities. These people also, these members of our community also, are dealing with finding shelter and then catches catch can, and market warehousing is priced so high. And then also, that isolation and prejudice issue. Is the neighborhood, is the home, is the shelter, the residential, or the group home that I can find, am I going to be welcome there as I am? Will I have to pretend to be someone else? Will I be in danger? As we all probably know for instance, refugees from domestic violence have a very difficult time. Lesbians in particular in those situations. - 'Cause there are so few resources and places for people to go. - [Pam] Exactly. - Well, you know, the issue of group living, it's kind of a, it's an interesting issue because we don't think of it very much in our day to day life. Most people in most areas, even if they live with a large family or with, you know, a large extended family, they think of it as a single family dwelling. But as we age and we look at the inability to care for ourselves on our own, if we don't have somebody, if we can't afford to have somebody there to do it. And that's a trust issue as well, you know, a whole different sort of kettle of fish, as my grandmother would've said, we have to start thinking about whether we're going to make a collective of our own. And you know, what group of lesbians around a dinner table hasn't said, oh my god, we've gotta all move in together, you know, at the ends of our lives, but rarely does that happen from what I've seen. I mean, the seniors in our community who have been having these conversations for 30 years are still living on their own or really unable to kind of do this. But I wonder whether it's very different from the senior population say, that you see through Jan Perry's office. It's different in the sense of the issues of the homophobia. But in terms of the isolation and the feelings of powerlessness and the neediness, those are present in the heterosexual population as well. In this society, one needs resources to be able to live comfortably. And to the extent that the senior population, particularly in council member Perry's district, which is, you know, one of the poor areas of the city, it's very, very difficult for the seniors. I know as a, just as a personal aside, for the last few Thanksgivings, my family and I have delivered meals to shut in seniors. And the community center is in Jan Perry's district. And it's a sobering experience, because I mean, perhaps some of these seniors that we deliver to are gay and lesbian, although I have no way of knowing that, but the conditions are really shocking and horrifying and sobering. And it's very important for us to do this and to take our spoiled 15 year old with us. Because when you knock on that door, and they open the door, you never know what the smell is going to be like, you never know what the conditions are gonna be. We've had, we now we buy plastic forks and knives to take with us when we deliver the food, because there's some people who don't have utensils. It's a very sad situation. And so the answer to the question is that those, the problems of lack of resource, isolation, no apparent family, whether you a biological or extended family to help care for you, are also present in the elderly heterosexual population. - Well, I'd always imagine it was somewhat exacerbated by the fact that the population in the gay and lesbian community, both gay and lesbian, that's now in their senior years, were part of a generation that did not generally have children. Although many of the women had had children and then, you know, discovered their sexual orientation and may still be in contact with their children. But there were a lot of lesbians and many, many, many gay men, who were either denied the ability to even think about having kids. I mean, we didn't think we could do that, or their children were taken away, et cetera. And I think that we sort of assume that straight elders have families to care for them, where that's not a 100% assumption either, but that it may be exacerbated for the, that generation in our community, who really didn't build that family. And then, you know, the biological clock went by and we started to have the sort of the Gayby boom, as I guess they call it. I'm very happy to see that many of our younger and even middle-aged lesbians and gay men have really devoted themselves to establishing families and fought for the establishment of families. And I don't think it's just so they'll have somebody to take care of them when they get older. But do you see a difference between, because it sounds to me like straight people that you go and visit are abandoned by their families or at least not taken care of by their families all the time either. - That's certainly the experience that I have found now, of course, I don't mean to suggest that that's universal for all of the elderly persons, you know, who are living at lower income levels. There certainly are many strong families out there, but I think it's a mistake to assume that children will want to take care of their aging parents, that they will be able to take care of their aging parents. Substance abuse has taken a terrible toll in the heterosexual, as well as the gay and lesbian community. And so it's, perhaps there are children out there who might, if they were in full control of themselves, be willing to lend a hand to their aging parents, but who can't take care of themselves. So even for the heterosexual community, it's not a certainty that the children will be there to help. The heterosexual community is probably aging. Aging heterosexual community is, may well be more likely to have those children, whether those children are in fact on the scene, is an empirical question. (Pam laughs) - Well, in my family, we had the seniors would come and live with us. I mean, my grandmother lived with us. My, you know, we were not, we were working class or I don't know, lower working class, or I don't know what you call it, not much money. And so we would share our house a lot, but it was a good situation. And that simply has not been the case with people who have been sort of sent away from their families, when they, you know, were found to be gay or lesbian. Ivy, you were also talking about the devastation that AIDS has created in a certain generation of our community. - Basically the age that would be needing. - There's that swinging arm again. (all laugh) - [Sheila] I didn't know you were Italian. - [Brian] Do you have a resentment against me? - No, I'm very fond of you. - [Brian] I know. - But, in that generation, where AIDS really was devastating, a lot of couples, one died and one is still living and expected to be together. So AIDS hasn't only devastated people physically and emotionally, but it has devastated retirement, hopes and dreams of what kind of a life, as you age, would you have. And now, people are looking at a very lonely existence because they were kind of up there in years or starting to move up there in years when AIDS began. And by the time it reached its peak and started to taper off, they were up there and their partners died or their whole social circle just died. So, suddenly we have people who really had to reset their minds in a whole other kind of way than they ever had thought. - Well, you know, there's a lot of positive stuff though, about this as well. I was thinking about the choice, if you could, to live in a senior community, now that we have more seniors and the seniors are more seniors, I mean, you go to the drug store to buy a birthday card, and there's more than one birthday card for people who are celebrating their 100th birthday. And you think, whoa, if the market is there, there must be, you know, people growing old, gracefully or not. And I know places like Leisure World, where people want to be, you know, in a senior retirement community and you were talking about the programming, don't you think it's a better thing? Not just because we're all so isolated and we're all so lonely, but don't you think it's a better thing to have these senior communities? Do you see a positive aspect to it? - Well, you know, I, I was interviewed for some story that appeared a couple of weeks ago and, I mean, I really got into what I hope this is going to be, you know, I mean, I think it's going to be a joyous, celebratory place to live. We really are special people when it comes to having a good time and the way we communicate, we kind of have our own language and how we communicate with each other and it's very up and it's very beat and it's very today. I mean, it shifts, we kind of stay current. So, I'm really looking forward to seeing what this first project is going to be. I think it's going to be a great experience and, you know, the gay men, the lesbians who don't wanna live with each other, get over it, (Sheila laughs) you know, because you're gonna have a great time. So I think it's a great, I just think it's gonna be wonderful. - If I can be a devil's advocate for just a second. Is it possible that the level of joy and celebration might even be increased if we thought in terms of multi-generational housing. - Possibly and that may be the next thing to look. - And one of the things that we are looking into for the program, it's a very good point, is we would like to have intergenerational programs, like maybe have some gay youth who have been thrown out of their homes and who have been taken in, you know, through the center or shelters or whatever, come work at the building because you have individuals at the building, some of who were probably parents. And now you have these youth, who don't have parents because they've been thrown out in the streets. And we always joke and say, you know, if you ask some of the youth, you know, what is Stonewall? They say, oh, well, it's a coffee house, you know, and they don't know the history of the gay community and here you have these older adults who made history, you know, of the gay community. And we see a great chemistry. You know, we see a great interaction between them by having them be together in the same building, you know, working together and maybe in the future, possibly living together. - [Ivy] And it'll be, go ahead, Pam. - Here's another thought, there's been a lot of research about the effect that having pets, companion animals, has on seniors. What about having a young person, a teen as a companion, so you could enjoy the person, but then he, or she would go live, you know, live in another unit. So you wouldn't have all the difficulties of that the parenting relationship brings. - Well, are there examples outside of our community of multi-generational places that are welcoming to seniors as well? 'Cause I mean, we have multifamily, multi-generational family units, and sometimes we even have programming, in some community units, but I don't know that anybody's found a really good way of doing this. We have some retirement places where you can be there as a senior, but you can have anybody live with you that you want. In other words, your qualification is that you're a senior, but you don't have to have all seniors in the unit. I mean, if some, a senior wanted to move in with her grandchild into one of these units and qualified, I don't think you would say, no, I'm sorry, it has to be two seniors, right? I mean, maybe you don't even know. - Well, actually, you know, we don't know yet it, and I just wanna jump in and say what's interesting and I'm actually gonna use a line that Ivy used a year ago when we had our first event to raise money. Is that not only does the nonprofit have to raise money to continue development, we also have to raise consciousness about the idea of gay and lesbian older adults. And this is what Ivy had said in truth, this is really the first generation of gay and lesbian, bisexual, and transgender older adults that we're dealing with and it's opening up so many new ideas and programs and things that were never in place. So, there's a lot of things to think about, to try and put in place. Just like you said, about having grandchildren live with a grandparent in the building or having intergenerational programs. So a lot of this is all in the planning stages because it hasn't been done before. - Also we tend to put a lot of hopes on our community, I've noticed, you know, in a way. It's kind of like, well, if you're doing this, why don't you do this and this, and these are only 103 units, but I think we have the ability to set a kind of an example and I was also thinking, when you said Ivy, our community's afraid of aging, that it's been kind of a looksist community and we don't, you know, wanna get old. We don't wanna look old, et cetera. It seemed to me that this might be a joyful place and a way to say, you know, nevermind about age, look at me. I mean, not just active, but we're all here. I mean, there's like hundreds of us here, but the idea of not being also shut away into just a senior community, that's not just an issue for our community as well and some people have complained. There's nothing but old people here. I went out to the motion picture home. Actually, when they dedicated it to Lou Wasserman, named it after him. And the people are saying to me, there's nothing but old people here. I thought, well, you know, there's a place that's set up, so you can get around with your walker and you know, your elevators and everything you need. But on the other hand, it can become kind of like an age ghetto. - [Brian] Well, what happens and this is what I learned going through a lot of the programs with the social workers, is people want to age in place where they feel most comfortable. Like if a gay or a lesbian had to go back in the closet, they tended to go back to their religious or their ethnic background, 'cause it would be the second place where they felt most comfortable. And if you look at a lot of the retirement communities, you know, they're predominantly something, whether it's the Presbyterian church or the Jewish groups or African American churches. So, everybody tries to go where they feel comfortable. And it, it would be great too, to try to not have that isolation just with youth, but just have it be gay and lesbian, you know, we're isolating ourselves, you know, and putting our ghettoizing ourselves, you know, but we can have a good time there and have it be predominantly gay or very predominantly open environment, where many gays come to. - I think there's more experimentation with senior housing. You're mentioning of foster youth who are emancipated, who don't know where to go. Now they're 19 and suddenly they're, you know, on their own. And they get some transitional services. Now only a few, minimal, but single parents, I mean, there are not really community facilities. Well actually there are, I guess, NEW Economics for Women, in Los Angeles, which is a virtually a single parent, kind of facility run by the people who live there. There are some experiments going on, seems like a very vital time for people, but housing. So central. - I wonder if those issues have been thought about by NEW, in terms of whether that housing is lesbian friendly. The units, the housing is beautiful. - [Sheila] It is, and it's wonderful programming, B and others have done great work with it. And I know that this is true in other cities as well, where ever there's energy, you know, to do this. But I think the issue of going to the various agencies and saying, do you know that your clients are, and they're used to being out, but it takes a lot of energy to come out. And I was thinking, the older I get, the less energy I have for this. I mean, fortunately I'm out, so out, you know, I'm everywhere, television and everywhere that I don't know that I think anymore that I have to come out to people, but many, many people it's always been one at a time. And as a senior, you don't want to, you know, after 20 years of being out, you don't wanna go through that again with a bunch of people that you're just moving in and you don't, you're not happy anyway, moving into a retirement home for the most part. - Perhaps it's time for the developers who are, who have the experience and who are friendly to our community to step up to the plate and compete for public resources at the city level, the state level, probably not at the federal level, that probably wouldn't go over too well these days. But, to compete for those resources that are out there, to help ensure that the housing environment, whether you focus on the seniors or youth or intergenerational or single parents, however you focus it, that the atmosphere is welcoming for our community. - I was actually gonna add that like when myself and this woman, Christie Finser, did a lecture for the Department of Aging, up in Sacramento, you know, we asked the question, just to kind of get the ball rolling. We said, you know, when you think of somebody who's older and you're working with them, do you think about, or ask the question about gender? Do you ask the question about age? Do you ask the question about religious or ethnic background? And everybody just kept raising their hand. And then we said, well, do you think about sexual orientation? And not one person, out of almost a thousand people, raised their hand. And you know, I can probably guess that this is not just with older people. It's probably with housing in general and many of the programs that are out there that people don't think that sexual orientation should fit in with some of the other criteria. And this is, we should be thinking about this as we're developing programs or housing or whatever it is. - Yeah, it's unlikely that for instance, residential substance abuse programs, ask that question or care about the answer. - Well, some of them I think are sensitive the other way. And that is, they think that perhaps the question would be offensive or people would feel that they might be excluded if they were asked. And I think the more education we can do about encouraging agencies and programs to ask, I went through the same thing with a number of medical groups, because I had heard from a number of lesbians who had gone in for just, you know, regular medical treatment, they would say, are you sexually active? And they would say, yes. And then they would say, are you taking birth control? And they would say, no, and they'd get a lecture, you know, about how they should be using birth control or some kind of protection or whatever. And they, it was almost like you had to come out, in order to get appropriate treatment, but it was not something that you particularly wanted to do, 'cause you don't always have the same doctor in some of these groups, you know? And it was, it created a new difficulty, in terms of deciding. So we're trying, instead of educating the patients one at a time, trying to educate the professionals. That there's a variety of ways that people live their lives. - And, yeah, I was gonna add, that like when we did something at the motion picture home, somebody talked how her partner came in and she said, well, I'm her partner. And they question, well, what does that mean? And so, we're trying to learn to teach people that, you know, you don't have to come out and ask somebody, are you gay? You know, you can just say, Sheila, is there somebody important in your life as we go over some options that you would like to have here with you? - And I would pull out a picture of my cat and wonder. (all laugh) - Well, there you go. - Is this pet friendly, is this place pet friendly. - But, that's a big part of your history. Then they would know this is somebody that pets are very important and she would like to live in a building that has pets, you know, but it's all in the way that you ask the questions without having to be direct and offend someone or make them think it's homophobic or having pictures on the wall of heterosexual couples and interracial couples and homosexual couples. Makes somebody say, oh, this environment's pretty open. - The key, I guess the, the symbolism of it is, is very important as well. This is certainly this project's gotten some very good press and I think people are, you know, sort of thinking about it at least and about the needs that our seniors might have. How do you keep affordable housing affordable? You probably don't know yet, but what's your thought. - Well, most of, we are using to finance the building, the federal affordable housing tax credit program. So, it has to be affordable housing and it has to remain affordable housing. That's set, the levels are set by the government. So we're locked into that and that's what's set by the government each year, Mercedes Marquez, who's with McCormack Baron Salazar, has spent her life in housing. She was deputy general counsel for HUD, for Cuomo and she and her firm. That's all they do is affordable housing. And they've built in 21 states across the country. So, this building will be in affordable housing period and they will manage it for us and make sure that the individuals remain qualified within the federal housing tax guidelines. - Pam, how do you see the city doing on affordable housing on its own? We have a housing trust now and seem to be doing better, but I, I don't know how, across the board, we're doing on affordable housing. - The city is doing better. One of the problems is that the city is a bureaucracy. It's a bureaucratic institution. And so, delays seem to be built into that process. And so, even though the city is doing better and there's money that has been set aside, the actual process is still very slow. And so there's a gap between creation of programs, creation of funding sources and the actual building of the, you know, of the shelter, of the housing. And, in this particular market, as the time passes, the affordability gap only increases. So, we're still treading water, basically, in the city. And we also have, there still are NIMBY problems too, in the city, I, you know, don't wanna name any names or anything, but there's, it's not a sure thing, that an affordable housing development proposal will be welcomed throughout the city of Los Angeles. It's well, it's, you know, as you know, it's a very heated, political issue. And, if the entire city were open and welcoming to affordable housing developments, we could make a bigger dent in the problem than we're able to now. - Some of the smaller cities that are more affluent are actually paying other cities to build affordable housing for their residents who are poorer, I mean, you know, we're kind of- - [Brian] Wow. - Oh, yeah. - [Brian] I didn't know that. - Oh, it's very interesting. I have 12 cities in my district alone and they're a very interesting group of cities, but, you know, I was thinking also about transportation. Many other cities do better, way better, than Los Angeles does on public transportation, though many I noticed in the Midwest, for instance, do not necessarily do better. Depends on how car dependent they've become. Transportation is a big issue for seniors as well, because you either have to have everything you need around right where you live, which we have not done very well. Although we have some neighborhoods, or the ability to get back and forth, how does that look for the project that's being built in Hollywood? - It looks absolutely wonderful. The exact location of the property is the Southwest corner of the intersection of Ivar and Selma. Right now, it's a maintenance yard for the city of LA. So there's, you know, trucks and stuff in there, but that's the lot. It's like one block behind the Doolittle Theater. It's just off Vine, where there is lots of shopping and the bus lines. It's one block above Sunset and maybe three blocks below Hollywood Boulevard. So, it's very well located for seniors to get around. You wouldn't need to have a car. I mean, you can have a car, but you really wouldn't- - Is there a Metro stop nearby? - Yes, yes, there is. - LA has a subway now, in case you all didn't know out there. - I know it's an oxymoron. LA has a subway in earthquake country. - [Sheila] Three subways. - Never got used to that. (all laughing) - [Brian] Not to get too technical, but to apply for affordable housing tax credits, it's very competitive. And you score points for certain things. Are you a quarter of a mile from a bus stop, a half a mile? Are you near a subway? And are you near a grocery store, a library, a school, a hospital? And we scored the maximum number of points, actually. I'm just gonna to correct one thing, it's actually the northeast corner of Selma and Ivar, northeast, just, and, and we- - In case you're watching in Florida. - [Brian] And you feel like coming to visit (both laughing) and it's Northeast corner and we scored the maximum number of points in this location. - No, it's not, oh, you're gonna argue. Now this is the LA, this is the experience in LA. I'm surprised we didn't spend 15 minutes talking about how each of us got here to the studio because this is, you know, the greatest subject of conversation. So now, we hope when the MTA strike is over, it'll be bus lines again. How did you get to this place? Well, have you already had a number of people, so many people express interest in the place that you start to worry about the inadequacy of it already? I don't wanna say inadequate in any way, except numerically is all, I mean. - We believe so. We believe there are many more people who will come forward than we'll be able to fill this, or that can fill this building. The community is still getting used to hearing about it and still getting used to saying, well, maybe I could live in a retirement place, you know, and not being panicked by not having their own isolated place. So, that will play out as we move. Where we're expecting, this is the first one we're expecting to go on to another and another and help people across the country. - That sounds great, Ivy, you know, when we, well, when you were in your 20's and I was in my 10's, I guess, (all laugh) did you ever think we'd have to think about these issues? - No. - [Sheila] And wonder about them? - Absolutely not. Absolutely not. - You've never actually, I give you great credit. - [Brian] Thank you. - For even thinking about this. Although we do end up worrying about taking care of aging parents. There's no question about it. - [Ivy] Well, I know I grew up, there was actually a matriarchal home in my growing years and everyone, all my mother's sisters and the uncles, and they all seemed to end up in the matriarchal home. It was really run by women, you know, three sisters and two of which were twins. But, they were all end up in that home. And I do remember thinking I don't ever want to end up there. I do not want to go back to that matriarchal home because as a child, I didn't find it a, I didn't find it happy, that I come from a fairly strict background. You'd never know it, but I do. (all laugh) - I'd say you had something to rebel against. - I was just gonna say, that's probably why. So, but that was the only thought that ever entered my mind. I do not wanna end up back here in the matriarchal home. - Well, I, you know, I can never believe how fast the hour goes by, but I wanna thank all of you very much. Congratulate you on this project, congratulate you on the work that you're doing in the city of LA on the, you know, on the broader housing issues. And for those of you who have been sharing this hour with us, thinking about your own retirement and wishing you could join in and live in such a wonderful place. I hope that there'll be so many retirement homes for our community and mixed living facilities, that we'll all just get used to it. (upbeat music plays)