Disclosure (2020) | Q&A with Tre’vell Anderson, Stacy Goldate, Jen Richards

Okay, good evening. I'm so happy to see you all here. Uh, my name is Beandrea July. I'm a film programmer here at the archive and welcome to the Wilder Theater. Um, it's an honor to welcome you to tonight's screening of Disclosure, um, a groundbreaking documentary by director Sam Federer, producer Amy Scher, and executive producer Leverne Cox. Tonight is the first night in a series of six nights um, entitled Disclosure, a trans rereading of American Cinema. And we have assembled an amazing panel u for Q&A after the film. So, I really hope you will stay. Uh, we have the editor of the documentary, Stacy Goldate. Yay. Um, and as well as two of the featured interviewees, creative consultants on the film, Treyville Anderson and Jen Richards. And, um, I need to let you know that tonight's free screening along with all of our year-round public programming is generously supported by an anonymous donor and our partners here at the Hammer Museum. So, we thank them. Um, love you guys clapping for the anonymous donor. Um, and special thanks to our community partner, Quirilm LA. Um, it's a great partner who um has worked with us on a number of screenings. [snorts] I also want to thank the archive staff without whom truly none of these programs would be possible and uh in particular our theater manager Lauren Brown, our projectionist, Alex Blevens in the booth, as well as our student theater staff that are here tonight. So, let's give them a round of applause. Yes. Um, also, you're welcome to take pictures, video of the remarks before and after the screening, but please refrain from doing that during the film. We also invite you to tag the archive uh at our handle, which is UCLA FTV archive. And, um, that's on all social media. And if you like, you can also hashtagisclosure doc. Um, so feel free to share, post, um, just not during the film. Um, you can also go to cinema.ucla.edu to sign up for our email newsletter to learn more about this series and all of our upcoming programs. And now I would like to introduce the producer of Disclosure, Amy Scher. Amy's most recent documentary project is Heightened Scrutiny, uh, her latest collaboration with Disclosure director Sam Federer. The film just premiered at Sundance. I saw it. It was amazing. And it follows ACLU attorney Chase Strangio, who you've probably heard of, as he becomes the first openly trans person to argue before the Supreme Court. It also examines how mainstream media fuels anti-trans legislation and endangers lives and threatens democracy. Uh for the past 20 years, Amy has been a leader in independent publishing and LGBTQ plus activism. I want to welcome Amy to the stage. >> [applause] >> Good evening everybody. Thank you. Thank you Bandrea so much. Um I just want to thank UCLA film and television archive. It is such an honor for the disclosure uh archive to be part of the collection in May. Thank you. It would not have happened without you. It's a huge honor. Um I wish Sam were here. Sam wishes he were here. um to thank you and to say hello to all of you this evening. Um Sam and I started making disclosure in um 2014. What a different time it feels like that was then when the rise of trans visibility seemed very exciting but also um seemed to promise um to bring a backlash. Um it seemed to come out of nowhere. where we didn't understand the context or the history. So, we set out to make um a small piece of that context and history by looking at film and television and the history of trans representation there. Um and to really think about how and you know how we could really kind of like stave off a backlash and if we could and obviously we can't and here we are. Um, I think it's just, you know, worse than any of us really could have imagined and, um, hard to stand here, um, without anything but real sorrow and and fear. Um, at the same time, I look back at the time that we spent making Disclosure was like 5 years um, before we premiered at Sundance. It was such a joy to make in large part because of the participants in that film and the crew on that film. And I really want to just take a moment to thank in particular Travel and Jen and Stacy. You like had such a huge impact on how this film was made and the impact that it had and I'm so proud of the film as a result and I thank you and thank you for being here tonight. Um [applause] and I just want to say finally we made the film um thinking that we would be watching it in community across the country and instead after the premiere in 2020 at Sundance um uh you know everything shut down because of COVID and and in-person screenings were very rare and this is rare. So, it's so gratifying to me that you came out though the film has been on Netflix for five Netflix for 5 years, but that you wanted to to sit in a theater with us. I just thank each and every one of you for being here and I look forward to the conversation afterwards and and again, thank you again for having us. [applause] >> Thank you so much, Amy. Um, I want to just give some context about the documentary to Amy's point about, you know, the backlash and the time that we're living in, Deep Breath. Um, I also want to just mention um and thank Amy and Sam for donating um for uh allowing their collection to be part of the archive and the library special collection. So um in 2020 2022 UCL library was honored to acquire the collection of disclosure which is made up of physical and digital materials related to the production and release of disclosure. These materials include production files, research, dozens of production interviews provide insight into the process of the film development, financing and distribution. Among them are research interviews conducted in 2015 and 2016. Interviews that are not featured in the final film but serve as essential primary resources. At the time, there was little to no comprehensive research on transgender representation in the media. So making these interviews is a crucial foundation for the film. You can visit the collection tab on the archives website cinema.ucla.edu to learn more about the special collections material. So, thank you again for that, Amy and Sam. Um, and yeah, I want to move to giving some direct context for the film. Um, starting off with just a few stats. Um, so approximately 1.3 million adults in the US identify as transgender. That's just.5% of the population. Yet, in the 2024 election cycle alone, over $215 million was spent on television ads attacking trans rights. More than $100 per actual trans adult. Um, this staggering statistic, which is reported by UCLA, UCLA's law school's William Institute, underscores the urgency of conversations like the one we're having tonight. The filmmaking team of disclosure highlights the paradox at the heart of the film with this quote. We all need to be seen and often being seen is what puts marginalized people in harm's way. It is that paradox of visibility that inspired us to make disclosure. By analyzing over a hundred years of film and television history through the perspectives of trans creatives, including our panelists tonight, Jen Richards and Trey Anderson, disclosure is both a reclam a reclamation and a reputation of trans eraser. It invites us to reconsider the images we have all absorbed over time, how they've shaped us, and how they continue to influence societal attitudes today. The entire screening series, named after tonight's documentary, features six films cited in disclosure, plus six short films centering trans characters spanning from the 1800s to the present day. So, I hope you will come back for other aspects of this series. The program is an opportunity not to just critique history, but to reread it, to examine these images through an intentional lens in real time by watching, listening, and reflecting. I had the privilege of attending the disclosure premiere um at Sundance in 2020 and reviewing it at the time for the Hollywood Reporter. In my review, I wrote, "It is easy to lo It is easy to lo disclosure for its trans representation in a world that systematically excludes trans people and leave it at that. But attention must also be paid to how the doc offers innovative and entertaining storytelling with a lasting emotional effect." So, I hope tonight's screening and the conversation that follows provides that lasting emotional effect for all of us. And uh just to give you uh people who know me know I love to say the run time because I understand folks have to use the bathroom. Um disclosures run time is 1 hour and 48 minutes. And um I also want to ask you to take a moment to silence and put away any devices that emit light. Um we can see your phone even if we don't think we can. Um and I look forward to seeing you afterward for the Q&A discussion. Thank you so much for being here and enjoy the film. [applause] Give it up for disclosure. One more time. [applause] I want to read a little bit about the bios of the folks who are going to be on our panel and call them up. So, let's start with um the wonderful editor of this film, Stacy Goldate. Stacy is an award-winning editor, producer, and director who has edited 50 plus non-fix non-fiction projects, including CNN's The9s and of course, Disclosure, for which she was nominated for a best editing award by the International Documentary Association. And next up is Treyel Anderson, they them. Treyel is an awardwinning journalist, podcast host, and authoresses of the book We See Each Other, which I highly recommend, especially the audio book. Um, a black trans journey through TV and film. They were named to out magazines out 100 and roots, the roots 100 most influential African-Americans. Treyel is a sought-after commentator and cultural critic. Welcome, Treyel. And next up we have Jen Richards. Uh Jen is an Emmy nominated actress, writer, and trans activist. She starred in Mrs. Fletcher from HBO, Tales of the City on Netflix, and played Julia Lawson in Clarice, a CBS show, as well as her story, which earned a Prime Time Emmy nomination and a Gotham Award. >> Welcome, Jan. [applause] I really am just um I'm feel quite emotional watching the film. I wonder if you all have when was the last time you've seen it and what was it like for you to see it tonight? >> Yeah, it's it's been a couple years since I saw I had to step out a few times. It's it's a lot. >> Yeah, >> it's a lot of memories. It's a lot of friends. It's a lot of trauma uh and having to relive it and just the sheer amount of media that we It's It's a lot and also really beautiful and also really scary to see >> the backlash that we all kind of knew was coming but didn't expect to be this bad. >> Yeah, >> it's a lot. >> It is a lot. I kept taking very deep breaths up there just like it's but yeah, it's been I think probably a few years for me as well. >> But you know, I talk about it all the time. you know, I talk about I just haven't watched it in a minute, but it is it's a lot going on in the movie and also in our everyday life, you know, so to see those things kind of reflected back to us in our everyday while watching it back is quite interesting to say the least. >> Yeah. I mean, I like at one point I stepped out to take a break and I opened TikTok and the first thing that came up was that the governor of Iowa signing into bill removing trans people as a protected class, which is the first time in America that a civil right has been withdrawn from a marginalized group. That happened yesterday. So, >> yeah. Yeah. Um Stacy, what are your initial reactions to the seeing the film again? It it it had been a while since I'd seen it. And I think it's the first time because so much time had passed. I mean, it's been like four years maybe since I've seen it that I I think I put I kind of distanced myself being part of the team and just experienced it like a viewer and it was it was a different experience. Um I it just it really it hit me really hard too. Yeah. >> Yeah. How are you all feeling? I can't see. >> Yes. Um definitely we'll have a period of question and answer. So we're happy to hear uh thoughts, feelings, sharings as well as questions. Um yeah, the sheer amount of images is kind of what I've seen the film multiple times now and it's like just the sheer amount of them is feels kind of daunting I imagine as the editor, Stacy. So I wonder if you could talk about your approach to, you know, weaving that narrative with all of those clips as well as of course the powerful stories of the creative consultants. >> Yeah. Um I mean there was like unlimited there was there were so many clips, so many films and shows. So I think sometimes when you're editing a project um your guide you you start with the archival first. Sometimes sometimes you start with verite if if it's that type of project and with this it was the interviews absolutely it was the interviews and um the stories the personal stories were the spine of the film and so the the clips were it was the stories that led to the clips so things were watched like the structure it was was began with the interviews. >> Yeah. Yeah. I'm so I I've never been on a panel with Stacy so I'm so curious. How long was the like the assembly cut? >> Um, well there I would say so there were there were sections that were edited first. So like I would work on you know I think the very first thing I edited was the Jeffersons the >> was the comedy trope. Um and then I think the crying game was the second was the sec and it actually since the very first cut hasn't changed that much. I mean I think >> that one so so I think it started with many many segments >> um and then um so and some I think we you know before the the first assembly some might not have even made it into the assembly but I think the first assembly might have been maybe three hours I can't remember but um but yeah there were a lot of assembled segments that didn't make the fil final film Yeah. Yeah. And I I want to turn to Treyel and Jen about, you know, obviously being in front of the camera. [snorts] Um, talk to me about uh when you first got the call to be a part of this film, you know, was it an immediate like yes, I want to be part of this. Was there some hesitancy? And I'll toss to Treyville first. Um, [clears throat] so I write about in my book, We See Each: A Black Trans Journey Through TV and Film, about my time um on Disclosure, which is really interesting for me. I was a reporter at the Los Angeles Times at the time. Um, and you know, got this email from the team in which they wanted me to participate. But the the main thing of this doc was everybody on screen was a member of the trans community. And at the time that was not language that I had used for myself. And so I was like, okay, well, what they see? Okay, why are they talking to me? Okay. What they reaching out to me for, you know, and so it it jumpst started um a lot of really interesting introspection for me around my identity around which language kind of that I I felt a home in. Um and I eventually said yes. Um really because I was like, "Girl, this they ask you to be in a documentary. What you mean?" It's a huge yes. Um, but it it it it was I say in the book that like it was one of those moments when you are like first called something that you didn't know you were, but you like you feel it a little bit. Um, and I had been, you know, moving through the world as this, you know, gender nonconforming non-binary flower, if you will. Um, but just had this really medicalized view of transness. And so I was like, I can't be trans because, you know, we not interested in all that. Um, and through the process of even just being open to to the film, um, I think it really challenged me to to um, kind of just release my understanding of of what a trans experience is from the medicalization that some trans people go through. Um, and I think it really like opened up a world of of opportunity and language and possibility for me. >> Yeah, I love that. Before the film even started, it had this kind of big impact. >> Um, what about you, Jen? You are Did you know Sam and Amy before? >> Yeah, I'd known Sam for for many years. So, I was part of the original set of uh interviews that he was doing in New York and I guess 14 or somewhere around there. So, uh, I was one of, I think he did like a hundred interviews at first and just was collecting our stories and, um, I was friends with Sam and I just wanted to kind of participate in this oral archive. And at that time, we didn't know where it was going to go or what it was going to be. There was just a real sense of excitement in the community that something was changing and something was was happening. Um, that so many of those clips brought back like a lot of memories. And uh there was one clip in there where Leverne was at the creating change conference. I think it was 2014 and she's she seems kind of shocked by her reception. And I remember like Janet Mach and I were like there in the front row and Leverne like the way that people responded to Leverne and like how packed the house was. We're like what is this a black trans woman? Like why is everyone so excited? And it like we all felt like something shifting and it just like one thing after another and we really felt a real sense of of hope and possibility at that time and and there were so many of us who had been working behind the scenes for so long to just try and push things forward a little bit and then all of a sudden it just there was this avalanche and something that's really to Sam's credit is like from that first kind of like tipping point he's like okay but what comes next like what's going to happen after this because we've learned that you don't get this visible, particularly this fast, particularly with an identity, that there is such a history of of of hatred and misunderstanding and willful ignorance without a backlash. Um, so it it was it was always a little fraught and exciting um but absolutely worth it for the impact that the film has had on the lives of of us in it and the way that it's reshaped the industry. Uh it's it's been seismic and worth it. Yeah. Yeah. And I I want to make space for the reality of the backlash and I also want to make space for the impact that this film has had. And I know um Jen in particular with your career as an actor, you've seen some ripple effects. >> So tell us a little bit about that. >> Yeah. From the film itself, in a lot of way a lot of um so I assume everyone a lot of you here are in the industry in some way, shape or form. And a lot of what I was doing in the Hollywood for the first few years I was here was just taking what are called generals where you just sit down with a you know producer with executive casting folks whoever just kind of get to know each other and figure out like you know what we're doing here what can you offer us what are we what are we looking for and I was basically doing a like a halfhour version of the film just hundreds of times in Hollywood I would go in and just I would work my way in and then meet with them and then tell them like hey here's why you need to start casting trans people as trans people. Here's why it's dangerous and wrong to cast sis people as trans people. Here's why you should also have, you know, behind the camera talent. And just making this argument over and over again and disabusing them of all of their misunderstandings and illusions just one by one. It was just long hard work. I would take auditions for things that were terrible that I would never actually be in so that I could meet the casting director or the director and say like, "You can't do this and here let me tell you why and here's how it can be better." And then this came out and I haven't had to have that conversation since. Like it does the work for it. Like it everyone in the industry saw this and it shifted the way they talk. We don't at least in America now it's still getting globally but we don't have cis actors play trans parts anymore. Like that stopped. Film festivals re reached out and said like we're no longer programming films where that happens. Like our sensibility around it completely changed. And then that created a lot more opportunities for those of us. I mean, I was on um I did a little three episode arc on a show called Clarice, which was a a Silence of the Lambs spin-off about the Clarice character that took place in that universe after the events of Silence of the Lambs. And the the filmmakers, the creators of the show, and it was like a CBS procedural, like how do we deal with the legacy of Buffalo Bill and the impact it's had on the trans community because they had seen disclosure like this has really hurt people. And so they created a character in that world like the real world of like of Clarice and Hannibal Lectar and Buffalo Bill who had been impacted by all of the media frenzy around Buffalo Bill. And then like she actually like my character got to meet Clary Starling and tell her like you messed up my life so bad and every time I see you I'm reminded that the world thinks of trans women as monsters because of this one person. So it has it just has so many ripple effects. >> Right. Right. And you were also a writer on that show too. >> I was a I started off as a producing consultant in it and yeah. >> Okay. Okay. I'm opening We See Each other because [laughter] um Tal has a really good section here about that I would like to ask you to read about the impact of um the documentary on Hollywood kind of further emphasizing what Jen was talking about. >> You want to start here? >> Yes, please. >> Okay. [snorts] The documentary has gone on to that part. >> Just want to make sure. Okay. The documentary has gone on to be a great educational resource for many. Oprah cited it as foundational prep for her interview with Elliot Paige after the Oscars nominated actor after the Oscar nominated actor came out as trans and non-binary. At the end of 2020, Federer, Sam Feder, the director, told Vanity Fair in 2021 that CBS's then forthcoming show Clarice, which is based on The Silence of the Lambs, readjusted their production after watching the film, including hiring Jen Richards to both be in the writer room and act on the show. The quote quote, "The series might have come out and perpetuated the harm that we see in Disclosure, but now that path is completely different," he said. Actor Ryan Reynolds also apparently reached out to Richards and Leverne Cox to say how the film impacted him and how and he announced a fellowship uh and he announced a fellowship he was developing inspired by the one Disclosure had with its production. Tracy Ellis Ross said on Instagram live quote I didn't think this would resonate with me but it completely aligns to how I was impacted by the media and now I have a different language and framing for it and I see everything differently now. Halle Barry was offered a role as a trans man in a film and she walked away not 48 hours after the disclosure team asked her to watch their film. And I'd be remiss if I didn't mention how participating in disclosure gave me the permission I wasn't necessarily asking for at the time to write myself into the archive of trans visibility to weave my story and lived experiences into that of transcores known and unknown. I'm reminded of an interview Fatima Jamal did with Amara Jones for the Trans Lash Media short doc, The Future of Trans. What is it that you're trying to create? Amara asks. An archive, Fatima says quite simply with a giggle. An archive of what? An archive of my existence. And that was just a little preview of uh March 16th uh where we'll be having a book signing of We See Each Other. Trey will be back. come back and see us >> commentating about Midnight in the Garden of Good and Evil um with Lady Shabi. So, mark your calendars for that. Um, yeah. I'm wondering about Stacy, like what the conversations were that you had with Sam and Amy about balancing sort of like these sort of sobering truths about representation at the same time as like the joy of [snorts] knowing trans people existed. Um, and I'm thinking about, you know, we were talking earlier about, um, the Hitchcock scene with Leverne, and, you know, that's kind of like a moment of levity in the film. So, how did you talk about striking that balance between, you know, hard truths and sort of joyful moments? >> That's a great question. I think um, it's it's like a range of experience, you I mean, you have experiences with it. I mean, I it was always good to include moments where someone said like, "Yes, this was problematic, but I also got this out of I mean, I think there's there was some like nuanced reactions to Boys Don't Cry and nuanced reactions to um the the show, you know, the Donna Hughes and the Springers, you know, and I think it it's it's people's experiences are complex, you know, and so I think that was really important I to include and also if there was ever disagreement or because everyone's having a unique experience um and everyone's growing up in different places at different times and different environments ments. So, you know, I think the the different experiences that people are having. So, trying to lean into just the real first time experiences and then maybe revisiting something later was was helpful because it's real, you know. Um, and at the same time, it was always really important. And we had a lot of conversations um Amy and Sam and I about the ending and how how really understanding that it's not like the work is over and this is a happy ending and yay we have pose and we have all you know I think there was always a conversation about you know how important it is to to make it clear that and it can change on a dime as Susan Striker said. >> Yeah. Yeah. I think and I mean to move towards the backlash. I mean the primary reason I wanted to create this series is because I thought it was a good movie just on a basic level and I also was really moved by you know as a programmer you can only program what exists right like so there are all these you know problematic representations of trans people throughout cinematic history but there's also this both end right as that the film directly addresses is and I guess I wonder like what is the value of rereading as which is a term I took from Sam which I [clears throat] think is like an academic term but like saying you know Midnight in the Garden of Good and Evil is directed by Clint Eastwood um but it has this um trans character who's really complex fully embodied and there in you know in whole form term. Um, why is it valuable to claim that? Well, [laughter] you know, I don't know. I feel like it's it's quite um a common experience of folks who come from communities who that have been like historically excluded to look at a thing and and be able to to recognize the nuance in it. to be able to say, you know, on one hand, this thing is deeply problematic and caused caused all of this harm and then on the other hand that it it, you know, was an access point of some sort, right, for us. I think of of of Maris in the film talking about um I think Reno was his name on on Jerry Springer, right? these these are sites that have been and and are super harmful to the community and also it was an opportunity for people to see slices of of possibility. Um and so and I think you know I think it's a deeply black thing to do as well, right? To to look at a film and be like but also you know you're laughing out loud at that wildly stereotypical and problematic black character. Um, and I think what it is is it's it's it is a, you know, it is a defiant effort to to claim something different, right? To to challenge that which we see on screen and and that which we can be um in in person. And I think it it also hopefully opens up something within the the nontrans people, right, who who get to now view all of these films through trans people's eyes, right? And and hopefully they just think differently about, you know, the narratives that they're seeing on screen. They think differently about, you know, hopefully how they're treating trans people in in their everyday life. The rereading is an opportunity for us to to to claim our our places, right, in these archives and in these narratives when for whatever reason everybody think we dropped onto the face of the earth with Leverne Cox and Orange is the New Black as if we weren't here, right? As Susan Striker says, since the beginning of moving images, >> right? Yeah. Yeah. Um, you know what really stuck with me this time from the film is you, Jen, your testimony and you're to me you're like kind of like the emotional kind of gooey center of this film. Um, and there's just something about the way that you express yourself and like this the word that comes to me is like countenance. Um, and also like I felt in inside I was like she snapped, you know, like you know how the kids will say it's like Jen snapped in that moment. Um, um, but I guess I just want to say thank you um, you know, for your testimony because it's really really impactful and important and you do it so well. Um, and I guess I just wonder like how do you want people to receive what you testified? >> A gooey sinner who snaps is my new B. [laughter] >> Please credit me. Thank you. >> Absolutely. I love that. I don't know. I don't you know the thing about making stuff or being in things is you you just you're present to the moment. you're as honest as you can be, as forthcoming as you can be, and then it's beyond you. You know, I I have no interest or concern in how what happens afterwards. I'm certainly struck. I mean, I still to this day regularly get messages from people like very heartfelt messages, you know, from uh particularly from uh trans people or from moms or parents of trans kids who see that the particular unicorn scene and talk about it or other clips about like the casting or like um the way that femininity is weaponized, you know, will get picked back up, someone will discover it, it goes viral. And it's it's it's gratifying to be a part of a of an ongoing conversation and knowing that everything that I say in that film is a reflection of all of my community ties. I'm able to talk this way because when I came out, I was kind of adopted by a bunch of honestly like trans women of color in Chicago um who were so generous with me and also said like now girl like you're middle class and white and you have access that we don't. So you've got to return the favor. You've got to be part of things and so that you can lift us all up. And I've always that's not a burden, it's a responsibility and it's a privilege um to get to do that. And I've had a very enviable life that is mostly free of of um of a kind of suffering that a lot of my peers have experienced and that keeps me very grounded and humble and just I'm grateful to be part of the conversation in any way, shape or form. >> Yeah. Okay. Well, um I want to open it up to y'all and um I'm just going to throw this out there. If you feel comfortable, you could share maybe something that um you're taking away from this experience of watching the film. Um if you have a question, that's welcome as well. But um I also want to make space for reflection if there's something maybe that occurred to you that you didn't think before or maybe not. But um just want to make space for that. Are um is the Lauren? Is the mic [clears throat] going around? Okay, come on down please. There's a question in the front here. >> And please don't be shy, y'all. It's Saturday night. We're in LA. It's rainy. Let's just let's talk. I'm tired. [laughter] >> Hi, I'm kind of nervous ask I have a short comment and a short question. Um the first comment [clears throat] I have is regarding perception and um again for the longest time I'm I'm a Gen X gay man, right? For the longest time the whole Stonewall riots as far as the narrative even from the gay community was that drag queens started the riots. >> And I believe that until now where in truth it actually was the transgender community that did it. right? They're the ones that started, you know, the up upheaval and such. So, [clears throat] my question is to Jen, um, tying back to what you said earlier, that uh, testimony towards the end, my heart stopped. And so looking looking if you were to look at that now, how can you still expand on that storyline in terms of like now it's four or five years later and here we are. How do you feel about that moment? >> Um the the unicorn story, the the parents. >> Yes. >> Yeah. Well, I should first of all say my mom and I are closer now than we'd ever been uh prior to my transition. She's mortified that she said um what she had said and done the things she had done. Uh she now forgets I was ever not her daughter. It's just so kind of normal. And looking back, we realized we always had a mother-daughter relationship. So I'm good now. Um, I've also um actually right when this uh movie came out, I met my now uh wife of uh four years and who does see me the way that that father saw his child and and helped me love myself in a different kind of way because someone else really truly saw me and loved me wholly and completely and that is really um transformative. Um I may be a gooey in the movie but I'm really generally not. So I'm going to just reframe a little bit and go abstract and intellectual with the first part of what you were saying. There's a there's a weird kind of dynamic that happens around you know any kind of you know cultural insight and commentary particularly when we're trying to like compensate for ras for for previous wrongs and like Stonewall the whole like um you know it's Sylvia and Marsha were like now who are so closely identified with Stonewall that was very much like an effort by a handful of mostly um black trans women in New York including Raina Gosset to kind of um put back their place in the larger narrative, but because of the way our culture works now, like those are the only two names associated with it. And it's as if they did Stonewall and this kind of exceptionalism that we always put like we want to, you know, hoist up like a couple of individuals and say like they did it like that's the face of it and or no, it was this person [snorts] all is besides the point like it was a community, you know, it and and Stonewall was like one of like four riots that had started happening. You know, there was Compton's and Dewys and Blackcat that preceded Stonewall. And in all these cases, what it was was, you know, the people who were out late at night, the people who were partying and bartenders and sex workers and street queens and butches and fems, a lot of whom didn't have the kind of self-reflective language that we have now. They would not have used the word trans or transgender. They would have seen themselves as gay or as queens or as drag queen. Like, there's it's not really about the language. It's really about the the community and something that I always think about when I think about Stonewall and Compton's and Dewys and Blackat is like we weren't there to riot. >> Like you know like historically we think about the riot and the resistance but like that's because other people interfered with what we were trying to do which is [ __ ] Kiki hang out, >> have coffee, eat pie, catch friends, like see what you're doing, gossip like celebrate. Like that's what those were really about is only when other people tried to take that away that it became violent and like in a movement. But what it's really about, the victory ultimately is getting back to what we're trying to do in the first place, which is just having community, being together with other people in place and loving each other and supporting each other and laughing and gossiping and falling in love and [ __ ] and just enjoying life. That's what it's really about. And so whenever we talk about Stonewall, like I I always want to come back to that. Like that's what it's really about is just us being together in space in this world safe and protected and loving and supporting each other. Excellent. Does anyone have a question? Yes. Um someone there in the middle. Oh, got two mics coming to you. Okay. >> Hi. Um, thank you all for creating this film. Um, in in reflecting on my my own journey, um, you know, I I grew up in Chicago in Boytown and um, like I was always this queer little kid. Um, and I've identified as queer my whole life, but it took me until I was um 48 years old to acknowledge u my transness. And sometimes I'm like, why? Like, how I grew up in like this queer environment. Why did it take me so long? And watching this film tonight, it's like that joke that was transess like I watched all of those shows. Yeah. >> And like I did not want to be that joke. And so like I accepted the identity that was given to me by you know society which was this gay man. And I carried that until until I didn't. And like like that unicorn thing and like like how you described that like I never thought that I would be able to look at myself and see the unicorn and I do today. Um, but it's like had there been visibility when I was little, it it might have been different. Um, so please keep doing what you're doing. Um, because kids really need to see this. So, I just wanted to say thank you for making such a beautiful film. >> Thank you. Stacy and I both lived in Andersonville. Shall we? >> Ah, >> Edgewater >> was the last place I met. >> Thank you for sharing that. >> Um, yeah, we can go to Yes. >> Um, yeah, thank you for making this film. Um, I had a comment and a question. The comment it was it's it was a bit traumatic re-watching some of the the media and uh some of which I'd like just avoided or or uh not processed. some of which I had processed. Um but it was a very powerful film. Um my question is as as uh public figures um do you have any advice during this backlash on how to protect yourself? And I guess I'm thinking about the juxaposition of being so vulnerable and so authentic in public and then having to have a thick skin dealing with uh the backlash. Thanks. >> You want >> [laughter] >> Yeah, it's a lot going on, y'all. Um, I think one of the things that I say to myself in in this moment, um, you know, I [clears throat] think a lot of folks have been talking about community. um you know getting getting in touch with um a group of folks who believe that we will win and who are interested in helping us get there. Um and that could look a variety of different ways for you. It could be the folks you're sitting with. It could be, you know, there's fabulous great organizations with folks who've been organizing long before there were legal documents that recognized their identities, right? who who are um I would say unfased by the backlash because they have pushed through and survived so much already. Um, and it's many of those those experiences, those people, those narratives, those transcortors whose stories kind of inspire me to to to keep going, to keep being loud, and visible and vocal, and to make sure that the people who say they're my allies, the people who say they are supporting me are proving it, right? um are also showing up to the screenings and also showing up to the protests and also making sure right that that I am safe when I'm moving through the world or trying to use the bathroom or whatever. Um I think it's just really important for us all to find who your community is um and stick with those folks um and and to continue to to to for me at least it's about continuing to be as vocal as possible. Um because I do think that our visibility though it has made us as a community more vulnerable that it is unlocking so much within you know those younger folks right who who don't know what could be possible for them um on on the other end. Um, and also for those older folks, right, who who also, right, for various different reasons of indoctrination don't yet know what possibility is out there for them. Um, I I'm I'm personally super convinced um in not only our humanity, but also our divinity. And I think it's important for us to to to keep hold to that um in this moment. That's my advice. What's yours? >> That was good. [laughter] >> Yeah, I agree to all that. The only only thing I would add and I do want to underscore one point that they they made, which is um know the history. I mean like things were worse when I came out than they are now. It's what we're seeing now is a roll back of the things that we've earned and fought for over the last decade, but like we didn't have them not that long ago and we still existed and we still found each other and we still thrived. Uh the only other thing I would add is that hope is a practice. >> It's not something you just like have like we think of it that way and it's not something that it's you know it's easy to do in like good times but hope is a practice like you have to commit yourself to it. the discipline like anything else. I choose to keep having hope and then allow that hope to then energize my my efforts and like that's what ends up transforming the world. But unless you choose to have that hope and in the wake of the of of you know true obstacles, it's meaningless. Like you have to commit. >> Um I think we could take one last question. Yes, Leslie. Yes. Um, I had a question. I'm just curious. If you're given unlimited resources to produce your own project, um, what would it be? Um, >> yeah. Um, I I actually will say I have a feature right now that I'm um uh starting to produce that's uh an indie feature about a girl uh she's a senior in high school um who's transferred to a new school and we don't exactly know why and she's a theater techie uh and then she decides to audition for Juliet and gets cast as auditions for Romeo and Julian gets cast as Juliet falls in love with the boy who plays Romeo and then you find out that she's trans and it plays out you know what happens because of that and it puts you every single scene is from her perspective as a scripted film. Um, and it just puts you in her lived experience in her lived reality. That's what I want to put out in the world right now because that, you know, um, 215 million um, that we discussed earlier in Republican ads or the 600 bills last year that were proposed um, specifically to curtail trans rights and the vast majority of those bills aimed at trans youth. And there is nothing to check all that. like the actual lived experience of trans youth in America, their story is not being told. They're just getting vilified and being absolutely drowning underneath the tsunami of of just vilifying propaganda. And there's nothing that puts you in their shoes and talks about what their lived experience of like what it's like to be a teenager and just want to like do theater and fall in love and like have a normal experience and then have your identity be politicized against your will. So, that's the movie that I I want to make at in this current moment right now. >> Um, I don't have a movie, but um I'm really in a moment of diving into the queer history of historically black colleges and universities. Um, and so, well, yes, it could. >> I would see that. >> Talk to me afterwards. Um um but I went to Morehouse College in Atlanta uh which for those of you who don't know is a historically black allmale institution. Um and I just know that institution's history of queer and trans folks who have helped transform this institution that is so pivotal in in black community and black American spaces. But that history isn't often uplifted and regarded. Um, and so I'm deeply interested in in documenting, you know, what our experiences have been on on these campuses, especially in this moment in which, you know, not just black history, but queer history and other elements of our culture are um at least folks are attempting to erase it and ignore it and disappear it. What does it look like to to unearth and and shine a light on those folks? That's what I'm interested in. What about you? >> Um, well, I want all the money for the projects I edit them to get they get the money they need. Um, I try to be really particular about what I work on and, um, and so I love when they get the funding they deserve. um for personal project. Um so having been working in documentary for so long and having the privilege as an editor to watch the interviews and the RAW and to witness the relationship between the interviewer and the interviewee. Um, I've really been thinking a lot lately about um what it means the the relationship between between an interviewer and an interviewee and how transformative transformative it is for both. Um, to be an interviewer um there's something about wearing the earphones if you're monitoring the sound and if holding a mic up say if you're doing an audio interview or or video interview. But um just this um it it just really puts you in a place of like radical empathy and listening. And a great interviewer for a documentary is not trying to persuade, is not trying to set somebody up, is not trying to educate. They're just there to listen and understand and be curious. And I I feel that really has an impact um on somebody to be an interviewer. And then I think when you're being interviewed um especially if you're someone who has never been interviewed before um there's something about being seen and heard that I think is really transformative as well. So, um I have been thinking a lot about that and about um um have been working a little bit go I think this is a good time to kind of go back to your hometowns right now if you come from a smaller hometown especially kind of getting out of the bubble and and listening to people's stories. So, I'm working with some friends and some colleagues about trying to share some of the skills um that I've learned in documentary and people I know who do documentary and teaching people how to interview and having them share, you know, interviewing and interview getting interviewed. So, >> yeah, it's it's a little project I'm working on. >> That's really cool. >> Yeah. Um, I know I said that was the last question, but was there was one person who you you will get the final word. Pass the mic to that person. Hi. Okay. Um, thank you all for obviously the film and staging it uh for us to see. Um, thank you all for being here. And I wanted to say thank you for being so thoughtful with your words um and what you choose to to put out there. Um, I know that selecting the stories out of so many hundreds of hours for the film, you have to distill it down and make it digestible and accessible to people who are not trans or people who don't have the vocabulary, whatever their identity. So, thank you. I also want to thank you all for what you're saying tonight. Uh because it feels like we all have a lot that we kind of want to say and we also all probably those of us who are trans especially probably feel like we have to be on good behavior right now and [laughter] a little bit in certain space you know depending on the space the content. So I just wanted to extend that like I I just appreciate how you all have communicated tonight. Um, [sighs] [gasps] my question is more of a fun one that I wanted to [laughter] end on. >> Yay. >> Um, I don't know how how many folks here have seen uh, you know, this film was only current right till 2020. So, obviously there's been a lot of media since. I'm sure we could all probably gab about it for hours about what we're watching and love. Um, but in the spirit of the film kind of celebrating good depictions or even lovable problematic depictions, I had a question for the full panel because it's not just for, you know, trans people, you know, or sis people, which that itself is a binary that I have issues with, but whatever. Um, I wonder if there was a key piece of media like a character or storyline that you saw growing up or maybe that felt pivotal because you saw yourself whether you kind of saw yourself aesthetically um like demographically or like you were like that is me. I'm seeing me reflected back from like a parallel universe um and uh and how it how it shifted something in your life. I would just love to hear that from whoever wants to share. Thanks. >> I'll go. Um I'm going to go with him from the Powerpuff Girls. Powerpuff Girls for those who don't know the cartoon. Um it is a cartoon and him is a villain I think technically in the series who has like they're red. They're like devilish looking, but they have crab claws for hands and they wear these like Lady Gaga type high heels and they have like a little tutu situation going and and like in the show they like play with their voice in all these different ways. So you get a little masculine, you look a little fem. And I just remember back in the day being like, "Hey girl, what's going on over here?" [laughter] you know, I just remember being like I think there's I don't know, but you know, so that I would go with him. Him would be my my character. Changed my life. Okay. [laughter] >> Are we Do we have time still? >> Yeah. Go for it. >> Um I'm not going to answer your I'm going to answer your qu a different question you didn't didn't ask. Uh cuz I saw I was thought you were going to go with like is there anything that's come out since Disclosure that that really strikes us? And uh has anyone seen um Chaos on Netflix? It's um a series uh really really brilliant and they canled it after one season as Netflix is want to do. But there's a story in line where one of the characters is a as a trans guy who grew up on um he he was a a child of the Amazon and in that culture uh once boys became you know men like when they hit puberty they had to to leave the island and so this trans guy on the island you know in ancient Greece is considered a a girl but his own mother recognizes in him like you we all know that's not who you are. Like you have to leave. >> And I thought that was such an interesting twist where like they they basically foregrounded the reality of its transit. Like that's the undeniable part where it's usually like sis depictions are are the opposite. But this was like a who you are like you are a man. Like that nothing else can change that. You staying here the world thinking you're a woman like not going to change the reality of who you are. So you have to leave. So like I have to like lose my child. You have to like leave this community because the reality of who you are is undeniable. And that kind of narrative um approach to transness is not one I'd seen on film before where you were questioning or trying to advocate for the reality of trans. It was just a given that you have to navigate. And that's that that's the kind of of step forward in narrative that I'm most excited about. >> All right. Well, I'll then take both of your both of your ways of responding. So, Yoda actually I had a period I had a Yoda phase where I would I would after a rain particularly there was a particular puddle that would accumulate under the swing set and I would sit and stir the mud and [laughter] Yoda my Yeah. [laughter] So, there there was a Yoda. I also really wanted to be Annie, but that's that's another um [laughter] um in terms of what I um what's what's on like I I would say what I want to see and what has started um there's her her books are starting to be adapted, but I'm really looking for looking forward to all of Octavia Butler's films being made um being made into films and possibly series. But um I I find that Octavia Butler, more than anyone else I've ever read, for better or for [laughter] worse, offers guidance for me, but also um feels very frightening sometimes. [laughter] I highly recommend reading if you have. >> Well, I can't think of a better way to end than with Octavia. So, um thank you all so much for coming and um have a good night.