DATELINE ISRAEL

[Music] [Music] [Applause] [Applause] this is Arnold Foster in Jerusalem for Dateline Israel Dateline Israel is sponsored by the Anti-Defamation League of Benet Brit it's purp is to bring better understanding to the American people by probing in depth everything that happens here we talk to bus drivers University professors storekeepers Arabs Christians and Jews we talk to Prime Ministers and government people of every Manner and sort Israel has now passed its 25th birthday we're trying to find out what it means to Jews here to Jews across the world and to the people of the world this afternoon we have the pleasure of talking to the prime minister of Israel Mrs Golda Mayer Madam prime minister did you dream when you came 50 years ago that you would live to see the state of Israel there are no um boundaries for dreams but if you tell me that I could have said 50 years ago that I'm absolutely certain that I would live to see a state that I think I wouldn't have done that I knew that someday there will be a state of isra an independent Jewish state is no doubt about that but that it would happen in my lifetime I don't think I could have said definitely that it would be so why do so many Jews from wherever they come the moment they arrive feel I'm home of course they feel that this is home because uh they feel that uh being Jewish this is the uh Acy of self-expression doesn't necessarily have to be because they come from a country where Jews are persecuted or Jews are limited they can come from the most liberal and the most democratic country where the Jews are treated uh as equal but uh wherever a Jew is he naturally has [Music] to live according to the majority among whom he lives as far as language culture and so as so far as concerned what has the reestablishment of Israel meant to the Jews of the world what's it done for them I think it has uh given them first more consciousness of their jewishness which naturally and absolutely is not in contradiction to their being uh let's say good citizens or loyal to the countries in which they live and so on uh but uh there's no contradiction between that but they they are Jews and there's uh a connection of history and culture and religion and it makes them more conscious of that because of the concentration of all that in Israel and to maybe some of them have never known too much about Jewish history Jewish past Jewish culture and this uh has awakened in them a desire to know more about themselves as Jews Israel is a small country with limited resources why are the Israelis committed and so willing to undertake the burden of unlimited immigration because that's what this is all about we uh we haven't created something for any number of Jews that happened to be here at any given time when uh the state was uh established we were only about 650,000 Jews it would have been absolutely ridiculous if we would have thought that for that number of Jews we needed a state can you see a limitation on the number of Jews in the state of Israel never does Israel regard itself as having any special role in the family of Nations uh no I don't think that we have to be something for the nations of the world we have to be uh a Jewish state now when I say a Jewish State I don't mean that no no others can live among us God forbid we have a minority of non-jews now of about 13 14% and uh always room for people who are not Jewish but when I mean say a Jewish State I mean that vast majority is Jewish that this is where Jewish culture Jewish uh the Hebrew language uh principles of Judaism are uh carried out and implemented and uh for ourselves I would want this to be a model state in many ways would uh in the form of society and the in Justice in the country and not too great differences between various groups in society of Israel I like to picture a society where there is U where each one really has equal opportunities and more than equal opportunities that those that come to us and have been uh because of the Societies in which they have lived for instance in backwards States in underdeveloped countries where they've suffered of discrimination have been held back that equal opportunities for them is not enough they have to uh be given greater opportunities in order to reach a certain cultural level or educational level I would like a society where it's good to liveing for everybody not because we want to be a model for other countries for ourselves so that within what is called the family of Nations we would be um a member of that family that U nobody would be ashamed of us has Israel's presence on Earth added a sense of spirituality to the world I say again I don't think that we have the duty nor should we have the uh the audacity to say we have something within us that is toh be uh a model for everybody else and from from here something will go out for the rest of the world maybe there are some that think that way I don't I say that we have to try try hard to uh build our state and build our society which we think is good if others also think it's good if others think that there are some um elements in our life which is good also for them we'll be very happy but I don't think we have the state was not created to my conviction to be a model for others to be a leader spiritual leader for others I am very happy if there is enough of spirituality for ourselves if others uh like it so much the better what difference does it make to the world whether Israel exists or not I think decent people in the world uh should make a difference to them whether a people not only Israel and the African people a people that uh is a people has suffered uh throughout centuries because they have not had their sovereignty it should make a difference to any people whether they we exist or not not only to ourselves U primarily to Jews and primarily to the people who are in Israel and I think all decent people in the world why why shouldn't it make any difference to them would it make any difference to people in the world if uh any European country exist uh uh does not exist what do you mean that we don't exist that somebody destroys us well the same way as nobody no decent person in the world would want a European country destroyed a Latin American country destroyed a uh African country destroyed an Asian country destroyed why should uh they be indifferent if Israel is destroyed if any Arab country is destroyed in other words Mrs mayia you want Israel to be a state like all nations in the world um no I mean in that sense that uh all nations in the world are not uh I'm I don't know whether all people in the world in all states are all happy with everything that they have or that they have created but I would like to be a very good State I mean Society I'm not speaking now safe naturally all all states and all nations want to be safe and security and so on I'm speaking now about the internal um existence of the state I'm speaking about Society there are Societies in some states that I would not like to be like them I would like to create for ourselves a Society of everything that we have dreamt of because all those that have been zionists have included the elements of their Zionism to my mind was not merely to bring Jews from one place to another it was not merely a change of uh a geographical change it was it always included also social justice for instance when Herzel wrote his book of uh a Jewish State he included like something like an 8-hour day he included he this was one of the basic elements of social justice in the state the building of a society of a Jewish Society here and we say u a Jewish Society there are many things uh of the basic elements of social justice has been preached by our Prophets and the Jewish State should have a lot in that so that I don't say like every other state I want to be considered in the right of existence of Israel like every other state but in in the internal society that we want to build I'd like to build that I'd like to have a society that is matches the best of what there is if we can do a little better so much the better has Israel's presence for quarter of a century changed anti-Semitism anywhere in the world well I uh this is probably uh my great disappointment I believed that when there will be a Jewish State uh anti-Semitism will automatically disappear to my sorrow that didn't happen there is anti-Semitism in the world um some places very evident and very brutal in other places less but U at any rate anti-Semitism did not disappear it's made no fundamental difference in the feelings of Christians toward Jews no that I wouldn't say that I wouldn't say uh for instance back in 57 being the Minister of Foreign Affairs at that time I was entertained in some country uh by a foreign minister and he said to me look I I don't understand Jews were never known as uh outstanding Farmers or as uh soldiers what happened this was after the Sinai campaign what happened to you people he said here in my country we have a team of uh Farmers from Israel they've done wonderful things in my country for my people and now you have won this war and several hours practically you've done something which is held up as an example of um for what your army is I said yes it's because wherever we were we really had no natural Roots we grew and sometimes uh I hope that we have contributed something wherever we were as all people wherever they were contribute but as far as you you have a plant you can take it out of its natural environment and replant it somewhere else and it will grow maybe even give fruit but it will not be the same as where it came from and you go back to the country which naturally grows this plant with full roots and they're accustomed to the climate and so on it develops differently have and so this is what happened to us coming back to our land and once upon a time we were farmers we go back to the soil and then then we become good it have the Israelis changed as a people over the last 25 years it's not 25 years really we don't it it isn't correct to begin our existence here on the 14th of May 1948 first place there were always Jews here throughout the 2,000 years that uh since our dispersion there were this country was never entirely free of Jews naturally very few and over over again there were attempts to come back but in the 80s of the last century there was a more organized attempt to come here and at the beginning of the 20th century with the second alah it was more evident and so it went down so that what we have here the the state didn't uh come into existence in 48 because in 47 November 2947 the United Nations declared that the that there should be a Jewish State they would never have declared it if all the elements of a state had already been created if the basis if the foundation for that hadn't been created and that was created for many many decades now of course we had the historical rights but the United Nations would have never decided that if uh if it it were only for historical right it was taken into consideration but the fact that the foundation was already here and because the second war highlighted what happens to a people that have no place in the world which to which they can come to as of absolute right mhm uh I'm convinced for instance that um if during the Holocaust if during the second world war during the Nazi reg regime if there had been a Jewish State at that time I don't say that we could have saved all of the Six Million Jews but there's no doubt whatsoever in my mind that many of them would have been saved because during the darkest Darkest Hours of that period period we were dependent upon the number of certificates that we got from from another Power how as to how many Jews we can bring into the country if the doors of Israel had been open as it is today many of those that that are not here anymore would have been alive many of those children that were sent to the gas Chambers would have been alive we would have brought them here you had a singular experience in Moscow when you first visited its great synagogue as Israel's Ambassador your visit reawaken Soviet Jewish identity what will that finally mean in the destiny of Soviet jewy now here's uh a very concrete uh example of what the being of a Jewish State means for Jews uh supposing there wouldn't be a Jewish State there they say there are 3 million three and a half million some say even four million Jews in uh in Russia nobody really knows um many of them and don't forget this is the second some third generation of Jews after the Bolshevik Revolution where for decades these Jews were cut off from contact with any other Jewish group group and certainly with us here before the state uh the study of Hebrew is prohibited that's a crime Zionism is certainly a crime and uh this would have gone on with forced assimilation although Jews are supposed to become non-jews as far as the religion is concerned concerned as far as their history is concerned you can't teach history as far as the Hebrew language is concerned but be having become non-jews does not mean that they're really non-jews as far as the government is concerned because on every Jewish uh identity card it says so that he's a Jew therefore this is the situation of Jews and the Soviet Union they're not to develop to develop anything of their jewishness but as far as their government is concerned they're Jews so in that kind of atmosphere in this double kind of existence they would go on living until I don't know what would have become of them with the establishment of the Jewish State those that remembered their jewishness and those that knew very little of it all all of a sudden became conscious that they're Jews and that they are not entirely dependent that their um um fate is not decided only and entirely by the Soviet Union something has happened there is a Jewish state with which they can identify themselves to which they can go and be equal in every way and an end to this schizophrenia that as far as the government concerned they're Jews as far as really being Jews the uh contents of their jewishness the essence of the jewishness that they are not allowed to develop and uh this is the result it took years what's happening now in the Soviet Union is something I think that nobody really has yet grasped that young people some of them that really didn't know that they were Jews anymore because their parents tried to hide it from them maybe life will be easier for them if they will not know that they're Jews if it will not be known that they're Jews all of a sudden they have come aware of their jewishness and the heroism with which they fight for their right um they don't fight against the regime all they want their struggle is for their right to come and be them eles to in in a Jewish State since they are Jews this couldn't have happened it would have been impossible they couldn't have done that in the same way a struggle to go to uh to Canada or to go to France because that would mean that they want to they they want a different regime instead of the bulvik regime they're going to another country but if when they when they struggle to come to Israel it's not because they're struggling against the regime the Communist Regime they are struggle for their self uh identity and their self- expression as Jews and what they do is something I think that nobody could have dreamt of a possibility of something like that happening there and they come here but they're not the only ones this the only place that they can uh come to this self-expression what about Jews that are uh in Arab countries in Muslim countries for instance the small group of Jews most of them have come here uh hundreds of thousands of them uh the few thousand for instance that are left in Syria are not only discriminated against but uh the most U brutal uh way in which they are treated in a ghetto not allowed to come out of the ghetto not allowed some anybody to buy anything from them and all these few thousand W is merely to get out and could come here the only reason that they despite the um situation in which they are despite the treatment for instance of the Syrian government are the Iraqian government where there are really only a few hundred Jews left and still some are put in prison the same in assria the only reason that they can go on and not give up is because there because there is an Israel for which they hope eventually they will come here we know Mrs Mayer what has happened in the last 25 years what'll happen in the next 25 you know when somebody asks me a question of this kind I think I can there's no limit to uh my dreams for 25 years because nobody will say to me 25 years from now ah 25 years ago you you said this will happen but it didn't happen I just won't be here I hope that one thing naturally comes to one mind first that there will be no problems of security for Israel that we will live in peace with our neighbors or rather that our neighbors would live in peace with us not merely formal uh peace treaties but but really this will be a region of cooperation but between the countries great development in the entire region to which Israel here I can say in all modesty that Israel can contribute and is anxious to contribute and we'll be millions of Jews here with the fine decent Society good culture I hope we will live not only in an area in the region of Peace we will live in a world that knows no more Wars and then Israel's final Destiny final Destiny of millions of Jews here with uh participating in all the good things that all decent nations of the world participate I can I'm convinced that 25 years from now uh Wars will be something of the past be more cooperation among peoples of the world the scientific developments will go on and bring people closer together it'll be more a community of of nations with not with anybody forgoing a specific identity but people will grow closer together uh I hope that the disparity between nations in the world of the halves and hav Knots of uh black Africa that uh that will disappear there will be more equality among not only individuals in each Society of each people but more equality and more cooperation between peoples of the world all the good things that one can just go on dreaming thank you madam prime minister thank you [Music]