Barbara Hammer, Superdyke | Mediated Sensuality

Good evening. Welcome to the Billy Wilder Theater. This is the home of public programs for UCLA Film & Television Archive. My name is KJ Relth, I'm a Programmer with the Archive. [Relth:] And... [Toscano:] and I'm Mark Toscano and I'm a Film Preservationist at the Academy Film Archive. [Relth:] And we are here tonight to celebrate the opening night of our retrospective to honor the work of legendary Barbara Hammer, who is here tonight with us. [audience applause] So there are some thanks that I'd like to deliver upfront. So our partners for this series, we would love to thank the Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences and Randy Haberkamp for all of his help in making sure that this program was possible. Our promotional partners, Los Angeles Filmforum and specifically Adam Hyman, for all of the work that he did to promote this series and this show tonight. We'd like to thank Karl McCool at Electronic Arts Intermix in New York, who furnished two digital files for this series, including one that you'll see tonight as the last film on this program. We would also like to thank May Haduong who helped coordinate the loan of all 16mm materials screening over these five nights, who is also here tonight. I don't see you, but May, thank you. [light applause] And then, of course, Barbara's wife Florrie Burke. Thank you so much for working with us so closely to make sure that this happened. [light applause] So, we kind of wanted to speak a bit about the occasion for the series, and I'll turn that over to Mark. [Toscano:] Well, the, the reason for this series - there's not just any one reason. I mean, maybe the most time-oriented or occasion-oriented reason would be this series of restorations that at the Academy, we've been really privileged to work on. But I mean, who - why do you need a reason to celebrate such an amazing person like Barbara Hammer? It's just like, like, you know, every day is Christmas with Barbara, right? So, I also, I want to give a little bit of background. But I also, I have a lot of thanks to give. I'll keep it short, but I also want to thank the, the Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences, especially the Film Archive where I work. Because if it weren't for my colleagues like, well, you know, not just May, but also Cassie Blake, who's also here, and Sean Savage, who have all in various times in various capacities been really instrumental in helping me work on Barbara's collection. But also Randy Haberkamp and Mike Pogorzelski and Joe Lindner. Mike and Joe are the Director of the Archive and the Head of the Preservation Department respectively, and they've not just been incredibly supportive of this project to restore Barbara's films, but just on restoring experimental and artists' films in general, which is something I've been able to do for 15 years now at the Academy, really thanks to, to them, and also to Randy. So that's a really big thanks to them, for providing that kind of support. I also wanted to thank the labs that are involved. Because, you know, this stuff - I don't just sit at a bench and just like magically make these things restored so you can see them. I mean a lot of other people are involved, like Nick Bergh at Endpoint Audio, Peter Oreckinto at DJ Audio and John Polito and Clay Dean at Audio Mechanics, where we do all the audio transfers and restorations for these films. And then also occasional partners we have, like electronics, Electronic Arts Intermix and the National Film Preservation Foundation and The Film Foundation who funded the restoration of ten of the films, I think all of which we have in the, in the series throughout. And on top of that Colorlab in Maryland. It's - they're a really spectacular photochemical film lab that also does digital work too. And I really couldn't have done this work without them and particularly Chris Hughes, the color timer there and absolutely especially for Laura Major, who is my good friend there, who is, like does everything that Chris doesn't do, like shepherding Barbara's films through the lab there. And then, of course, at UCLA there's - we've been able to do this thanks to the generous support of Chris Horak, but also we have Paul Malcolm in Programming, who I don't think he was able to make it tonight unfortunately, but, but Paul is always fantastic to work with. And then Mr. Jim in the booth, who will as always, make sure that we have excellent projection here tonight, as we always do. And then finally, yes, for Jim. [audience applause] And, I, of course, have to thank K.J. who is a dear friend and with whom it has been such a pleasure to work on putting this together, not just on this but other, other things we've done too. So, yeah. And I realize that this makes it sound like it's kind of a love fest going on here, but that's the thing. When Barbara's involved, everything becomes a love fest. You know, as we'll see with the films, as we'll see maybe in the Q&A later. You're all, I mean, you're all gonna spontaneously fall in love, if you haven't already tonight. So I - although I don't, I don't like to introduce a film screening, making it about myself in some way. I feel like I have to tell a personal story about how, about meeting Barbara that was really memorable to me. In 2002, I was working at Canyon Cinema in San Francisco, which is, I think, you could say, Barbara's primary distributor of her films on 16mm in the U.S. And we had just moved to a new space south of Market, and Canyon's not there anymore, but we had just moved there at the time that I was working there. And I got a call. I was the only one there at the office that day and I got a call from Barbara, who I had never talked to before if I remember correctly and, actually whose films I was only at that point beginning to become familiar with. I just knew she was sort of a big deal. She was a superstar. I thought, "Oh wow, it's Barbara Hammer calling." And she said, "Hey, I'm in San Francisco but I'm leaving today and I don't have a lot of time but I really want to see your new space." I don't know if you remember this. But you, you, so you called me and you said, "Yeah, you were gonna be nearby but you're on your way to the airport. You had very little time and, but could you come up and see the office?" And I said, "Well yeah, just come by." So a little bit later, I got a call. And you said, "Okay. I'm downstairs, but I really only have a few minutes, you know, my friend's waiting in the car on the loading zone. And, and so you came up. You - there was a knock on the door and you came in. You introduce yourself, and this is this is how you examine the space. You're like, "Okay, yeah. Looks good. I like what you did here. This is really great. Alright, yeah, yeah. Okay, let me look in here now." And it was a tiny little space of two rooms, but she zoomed around it. "Mmm hmm. Yep. Okay. This is good, this is good." And we had filmmakers at that point, sign the wall if they visited. And I gave her a Sharpie. And she signed it bigger than anybody else. Right? And then, and then she left. And, "Yep, I got to catch my flight. You know, see you later. Nice meeting you." And she was - it was like for this two minutes that she was in the room, she was this ball of energy. And in all my experiences with her, she's somebody who has always really, like, lit up the room. And in that case, she really was like a comet, lighting up the room, like kind of coming through. And it was so memorable to me. I was like, "Wow! Who was that? What was that? What just happened? And, it was really, I think, a perfect way to meet you. Because you left this incredible impression in just a couple minutes. Like you just took over the space, you know, and I think you'll be doing that tonight, if I know you. So several years later, I was working at the Academy Film Archive and we first spoke about maybe the idea of trying to move her film collection to the Academy and to work on restoring the films. And maybe we can talk about this in the Q&A but at the time, Barbara wasn't ready to do that and I think there's some very interesting reasons why that might have been the case, and maybe, like I said, we can discuss that. But, so over nearly a dozen years, I would periodically talk to her and say, "Hey." You know, or we met up a couple times in New York. You know, May and I, we had, we came over your place once, about ten years ago. And, and you were like, "Yeah, no. I really appreciate it. I'm still sort of figuring out what I want to do. I'm not sure yet, I'm ready to really do that." And so it took a little while. And finally, a couple years ago, I emailed and I said, "Look. You don't have to put your films at the Academy, but let's at least start working on restoring 'em, because this is crazy What are we waiting for?" And you said, "Okay, now I'm ready now." And, so yeah, and maybe we can talk about that. But so, since then, it was a bit of an undertaking to get everything to L.A. It was in stored in a few different places. And I just started going through it all and immediately started figuring out what we could do to restore these films. And with the very gracious support of Film Foundation, through the National Film Preservation Foundation, and our partners at EAI, we were able to get a grant to work on 10 of 'em, as I mentioned. And, but then I also just started working on other ones too. So some of the films you'll see tonight, or maybe just one tonight, "No No Nooky T.V.", was just, just a random restoration I was doing alongside all these other ones at the Academy. So, making a long story only a little less long than it otherwise could have been, a lot of this work was done, to do some screenings and for a fantastic exhibition that Barbara had at the Leslie-Lohman in New York last year. And so, with that happening, with all these shows, it seemed like, well we have to do this in L.A. And I don't know if you know this, but Barbara was born in Hollywood. And so this is your home turf and she went to UCLA. And so it seemed like the perfect marriage, so-to-speak. And so - and I knew when I asked K.J. if she'd be up for doing that, that she would say yes immediately, very enthusiastically. And, it goes without saying that it's so incredibly meaningful to me that you're able to be here with us. I, you know, we weren't sure if it gonna be able to happen and it did. When you bought that plane ticket. I thought, "Oh, my God, is it really gonna happen? Is she really gonna? Am I - are we gonna see her? Are we gonna have her on this stage and see these prints? And so, yeah, I'm really thrilled that you're here. And so, anyway, enough from me. So, back to you. [Relth:] So, yeah, when, when Mark asked me if I wanted to be involved in putting a program together, I did enthusiastically say yes, but this, this did, you know, I kind of wanted to talk about the scope of how we made this happen. We started watching films in April, and over five sessions we considered 50 of Barbara's films, which is not even half of her filmography. We narrowed it to 30, which you'll see between now and December 15th, here at the Billy Wilder Theater. We're also working on putting - we already have a curated kind of package of her video works also, that we're looking to find another venue in Los Angeles to show those sometime in January. So stay tuned for more info on that. So tonight's program begins with one of her best-known shorts and ends with Barbara's most recent work. And we put this together in an attempt to kind of highlight her playful unfolding dialogue between corporality and artistic method. We are considering these together tonight as sort of a primer on her visual imagination and her career-long fascination with the power of touch. And with that, we would love to ask Barbara to come up and say a few words. [audience applause] [Hammer:] This is the power of touch. The power of touch goes to Mark and K.J., who have brought us together tonight and I'm humbly honored to be back at my alma mater, with so many friends that came from out of town and from across town on this rather dire night. And as we sit here today and move into a lesbian sexuality and playfulness and, and illness, let's think of our friends, who are out there in the hills, and wish the best for an uneventful evening. I have lots to say. I do have energy. And I'll bring it forth after the show. Thank you so much for everything you've done for me. My life is enriched because of you. Both of you, the Academy, UCLA, the Archive. I really can't tell you how much it means to a person in their late 70's, to have their work restored by the best person possible, who knows all the ins and outs. Who calls me with the most meticulous details. "What did you want to have, you know, this sound coming over that sound, or did you prefer it the other way?" "Send me the file, Mark. I don't even remember." So that's the way it's gone. And we've had a ball doing it and I just hope they can get to all hundred films. [laughs] So let's talk later, and look forward to seeing these projections for the first time, many of them myself. Okay. [audience applause] [audience applause] [Toscano:] Wow, did you hear that? [microphone noise] [microphone noise and laughter] [Hammer:] We're gonna get in trouble. You've been waiting all your life to do this. [both laugh] [Toscano:] Well it's all about tactility, right? [Hammer:] All about it. [Hammer:] Oh, boy. Ooh! Well that was a warm-up. Hey, you know what, I forgot to say thank you to a couple people who I really appreciate being here tonight. And one of them is our Los Angeles County Supervisor Sheila Kuehl, Kuehl, who's right here, [audience applause] and Torie Osbourn sitting by her, are activists for many years. Sheila and I went to school together here, and were in politics back in the old days. And a couple people that have come from out of town. I'd like to mention my sister, Marcia Ebert, who's come from Northern California and her fr- her friend Shirley. And then, yeah, I can just go on a few more. Corina Copp, who's coming from Inverness today. And two sorority sisters. Yeah, that's going way back, isnt' it? [Toscano:] Where are they? Right there? [Hammer:] Yes. [Toscano:] Wow. [Hammer:] Sue Ellen. Sue Ellen, um, and Sue Kimmy, my good friends, who've been with me through all these years. And now I'm breathless. Rowl Inson [?], thank you for coming all the way from Northern California too. [Toscano:] So what did they teach you in the sorority? [Hammer:] [laughs] You know, they tried to kick me out? [Toscano:] Really? [Hammer:] Oh yeah. But I was a legacy so they couldn't. [Toscano laughs] Yeah, I was - what was it Sue Ellen, Sue Kimmy, what, was it called, that they called me? I was the mouse, the sorority house mouse. And so I used to write down all these, you know, little gossipy things that were happening and post 'em. And I'd use somebody else's typewriter every week, so they never could trace me. Yeah. And then finally they - I found one day a postcard on my door that had - oh, I know what it was. It was Band-Aids across my lips. And they said I talked too much. [both laugh] Yeah, so that's that story. [laughs] [Toscano:] That wasn't the first nor the last time someone told you that though, right? [Hammer:] Ha, ha, ha, and then I met you. [both laugh] This is a real challenge. I mean, you know how many, many hours we spent on the phone talking about timing? [Toscano:] Or texting. [Hammer:] Or texting. Yeah, usually texting. [Toscano:] It's funny, so Laura Major from Colorlab, who's amazing, she and I had a - came up with a little shortcut of emojis for your name. [Hammer:] Oh really? [Toscano:] It's the little barber pole and then a hammer. So it's Barbara, Hammer. [Hammer:] Oh, that's polite. [Toscano:] Yeah, so we use that back and forth. [laughs] [Hammer:] And you never shared? [Toscano:] No, no. I'll start doing that with you too. [Hammer:] Anyway, this was a wonderful projection for me tonight. The restoration was immaculate. I saw things in some of those films that I hadn't seen since I made them, and many that I'd forgotten. You know, there were little details in the sound that you brought forth as well as the imagery, and the projection was fabulous. [Toscano:] Yeah, thank you, Jim. [audience applause] [Toscano:] I actually wanted to start, if we could, to talk about "Evidentiary Bodies", the last piece, because I felt very very lucky to see it in Berlin, where I think you premiered it, at least as a cinematic work. And with live cello. And, I think K.J., K.J. and I had to work on you a little bit to let us show it in here and I'm wondering if you could talk about why that is, because it has other forums. [Hammer:] Well, I wanted people to have an intimate experience with the process of dying. And I felt that with that large screen, and tonight it becomes a more cinematic experience and it's out there. And I thought that I wanted to build a sculptural - well, a white box, a black box, that you enter through an X-ray screen. Three screens, on which are projected CAT scans of the body. And then you sit in a small little area, and you watch, on the three screens, you're surrounded by it. And you can stay as long as you want. So if you feel like you missed something you can continue and not be going like this, because it's pretty dense, in terms of imagery. And I'm happy to say that it will be premiered that way at the Wexner Center for the Arts. In May, they're giving us a whole gallery space, so all my work that's been - that has to do with mortality, and you see so much of it will be there, in terms of my photography and installations and "Evidentiary Bodies". [Toscano:] And I was amazed. Because although I had seen it once before, I was really amazed to see how much in it, I felt connected with the other films in the program, and some of your other interests throughout your career. So we had, I mean, "Double Strength", there's sort of the doubling of the figure. And I mean, even "Synch Touch" and certainly "Women I Love" and "Dyketactics", I mean, I felt like all the films in the program, "Vital Signs" especially, could connect to "Evidentiary Bodies" in it, it feels very much like, I mean, although you're somebody who, I think as you continue to make work you, you're like an avalanche. You're like - or a snowball going down the hill, you keep accumulating all these ideas and these tools, and you, you may pull them out at any moment or abandon them in any moment. But this one feels like you've really absorbed all of this and then kind of compiled it almost, in the, in this piece. [Hammer:] Well that's a beautiful way to speak about it and it surprises me that I was so concerned about death so early. I mean, I guess we, you know, we all are. We all make work to delay it or to have a legacy. But I really couldn't have made this film without a very important person in my life, and that is my spouse, Florrie Burke who has been with me for 30 years, and is not only a lover and an emotional support but she's also a caretaker now. And Florrie, I thank you, with everything I have. You - I could not have made these works, in the last 30 years that we've been together, without your support and your stability. Thank you. [audience applause] [Toscano:] So, you recently did a talk at the Whitney Museum, and I encourage - have, has anybody looked at the video online? So, a number of you, okay, that's great. This really remarkable talk called "The Art of Dying". And if you would like to see it you can see it on the Whitney Museum website. It's pretty easy to find and I really, really urge you to check it out. But I was wondering, I mean, on one hand we know why this has been on your mind a lot, because you're dying. What is this - I mean, it's, I'm not asking you to summarize your talk necessarily, but what is, what is - how has that affected your creative practice, I mean, in the last decade or so? That this has been an - because you, you had cancer previously, and then now it's back. What is, what has that done? [Hammer:] Well, you know, with ovarian cancer, endometrioid ovarian cancer, I've never, it's never left me, because it was found after it already metastasized. Oh, well, you know, what have I, I've had 12 years. You know, I was only asking the heavens for five, so I feel blessed with the amount of time. But of course, not all that time have I been well enough to work. And "A Horse Is Not a Metaphor" I made, because I felt like, we hadn't seen films, what it was like to go through chemotherapy. You know, to really experience the body as you have the injections and the change of physical shape and, and then pull through, to find pleasure in life. And so, it's always been about living with cancer, not dying with cancer. And, you know, some of the metaphors that are used in our television and in writing, to talk about cancer as a battle. To talk about, "Oh, you know, she made it through her war with cancer." Let's talk about war. Let's talk about Syria if we're talking about war. We're not gonna talk about cancer. This is an illness. It's a disease that hasn't yet been reconciled by our medical establishment, which are doing everything they can. And those thoughts have come out in performance, as well as film, and... you know... It's something - you know, we didn't experience birth, but we can experience death. And I want to live a conscious death. And this is the other political dilemma I'm caught in. New York does not have right-to-die with physician-assisted suicide, so that I could say goodbye to everybody, choose the time when I know I'm not going to be any better and don't want to feel any worse, and I could go to sleep. You know, if this were possible, I would be so happy. And that would be a total, I don't know, embrace for me, of everybody I've ever known, every tree I've ever visited, you know, I mean. So I hope that that point came across clearly in the Whitney lecture. And also then we don't want to hide. You know, it's like all the work is about let's, let's talk about it. You know, let's talk about sex and menopause and, you know, lesbian bed death. Let's not leave out anything. And so why not talk about dying? You know, and in the art world, it's pretty tricky, you know. Are you gonna get a grant if they know you have cancer? [laughter] I'm serious. I'm really serious. I have friends who, you know, don't want me to mention that to anybody else. So it's... our inability to be frank and in discussion, I think, is at the core of the political difficulties in the nation right now. And this is one part of it, that we don't know how to talk to each other. [Toscano:] Right. In a way, is that what prompted you to make "Vital Signs"? [Hammer:] "Vital Signs". [sigh] You know... I don't know what prompted me. Well, what prompted me... I had a residency to work with the Amiga computer again. They never had an artist residency at this school and I didn't know what I wanted to do. I had images of my father who was dying. But I also found an old skeleton in the biology department that was female. And I took her for company into my little room for a month. [laughs] And I played around with the Amiga, you know, and looked at death through that period of time, in which I was living. Or I could also find pleasure in color and form, and say goodbye to my dad. [Toscano:] And then, I mean, but of course, it's a very different experience thinking about the deaths of people you were close to. Curt McDowell is mentioned as well, in the credits and, and Vito, and then as you became ill, you started making work that was addressing your own health and your own illness and your own, your own death, as you saw it may be impending. And did you feel that meant working on "Vital Signs" and other work around that time, like "Snow Job" prepared you for that in a certain way? [Hammer:] I don't think you're ever prepared. I don't think because, I mean, one of the things I was studying back then was how we put death far away from us, like in the Middle Ages. And well, we used to have the, the burial right outside of our door, so that we walked over the ancestors. You know, we couldn't forget them they were right there. And then as the cities developed we put the cemeteries further and further away. And with that, went language about it and discussion about it. So I don't know that I was preparing myself really, and except for, I guess, the fascination with the history of it and then, of course, with the AIDS epidemic, that was so devastating to the communities. And the death of so many talents, you know, so young, you know that wouldn't, couldn't have it in the forefront of your mind in the mid '80s, and after. [Toscano:] Yeah, I didn't, I didn't mean to come up and just dwell on this topic, but... [Hammer:] Yeah, this is getting... Let's dance. Let's go back to our... microphone play. [Toscano:] Yeah. Partly, it's, I, I've gotten such a - an incredibly - I've been incredibly moved by your work having to do with illness and aging and, and death because I feel like you have such an insight creatively into how to investigate these topics really provocatively. But, also really honestly, really personally and intimately, but in ways that we can, I think, a lot of us relate to, in a very intimate way. So, which is why I wanted to talk about it. It's very present, obviously. [Hammer:] Thank you. Thank you. [Toscano:] But I, I have been really looking forward to also asking you about "Women I Love", because this is really one of my very favorites of yours. I absolutely adore that movie. And for the... [Hammer:] Even though I have to say something. [Toscano:] Go for it. [Hammer:] It's not Florrie's favorite film. [Toscano:] Yeah, I'm sorry, Florrie! [laughter] I'm sorry. [Hammer:] She wouldn't even hold my hand during it. [audience laughter] [Toscano:] It was a long time ago, Florrie. It's okay. [both laugh] But it's - you use all these different techniques to give us a very vivid sense of not just the personalities of these women but also of your feelings for them, of just the the emotional space that you shared with them. But, and for us, I think it's a really vivid experience. But what is that like for you to watch? Because obviously you lived it and you felt it. And so how is it now to watch this, that was made in '76, and what is it like to see that now? [Hammer:] Well, you know, it was a rainy day. And I didn't have anything to do. I was living on the Peter Adair ranch in Northern California and I brought out all this old footage and here are all these old lovers. And I just had the idea that each one of them I could express through a different feeling. That's why, like, the, the onion opens up the Ruth Mahaney section, because she was just a person who could easily make you cry. You know, and there's one woman who wasn't a lover in the film and you can feel the distance with Cynthia MacAdams, the photographer, who's twirling the used Tampax pad in the window. And... seeing it now is probably less difficult than watching the, my autobiographical film - my even more autobiographical film with "Tender Fictions" where I kind of cringe... a bit. [laughs] And, you know, watching it just takes me back to the time I was working on it, and the different relationships and the wonderful Gloria Churchman, who never got recognized as an artist, living in Bolinas and northern Mendocino. Always saying, you know, "you're gonna be famous because you're out there and you're not, you know, shy like me." And a talented female artist, you know, lost to us. So I think of those things when I watch it. The stories behind the imagery, I guess. [Toscano:] Yeah, it functions as kind of a personal archive, but then a lot of your work does. [Hammer:] All of it. [Toscano:] Yeah. And then speaking of archives, [ clears throat] I alluded in the introduction to [Hammer:] Yes, you did. [Toscano:] this idea that over, over many years, we would every so often, we'd talk and we, we, you know, May and I visited, and my sense was that because you have such presence, you have such vitality, and your work is such a part of you and also has that presence and vitality, I imagined that you were hesitant to put it into an archive because you thought, "Well no, but I'm still here. I'm not being put into the archive so why should my work be there too. I'm, I'm not done with it yet." Is that right? [Hammer:] Well that and I needed to do a lot of investigation of archives. And so I started doing that both for the paper archive and for the film archive. I would visit archives and see how they're handled, and how the material was given. You know, I went here to UCLA surreptitiously without using my name and asked to see Tom Chomont's films. You know, I was treated beautifully. You know, they were brought right out and VHS, they were, and I had a room to - Florrie and I were there, we had a room to ourselves. And I thought, "Not bad." [both laugh] But then, when you talked about restoring, you know, that made all the difference. Because and - to be in an archive is respected. And as encompassing. An archive that takes not only traditional Hollywood work that we're so familiar with, most of us, but also the avant-garde, the silent film. You know, and that made, you know, me go, "of course." And, you know, really I can't tell you - I can tell you over and over again and I hope you hear it. This has meant everything to me, to have my work restored by you. And it's not just the archive restoring it. It's you, Mark Toscano. I love you. [audience applause] [Toscano, emotionally:] I love you too, Barbara. I don't know what to say now. I have some notes that I don't give a shit about suddenly. [laughter] [Hammer:] You know, I love this Q&A. It's because it's so intimate. And I only had one other one like this in my life, and that was at the Tate Modern, when we showed "Medical Work" and a medical anthropologist who I'd never met but who came to the Luxury - lives in London - but he happened to be in New York the other, the last few weeks ago, when I gave it, talked about death and dying in the theater space. We couldn't see the audience. It was just us who were illuminated and we had this kind of a talk, and wow, it's special. [Toscano:] I agree. [Toscano:] Yeah, I really don't know what to ask now. [Hammer:] We can ask the audience. How unique! [Toscano:] Yeah, do we [laughs] - there must be questions from the audience, 'cause I think I need a break. [laughter] Would anyone like to ask Barbara a question? I know there must be somebody. [inaudible talking from audience] [Toscano:] More about the women in "Women I Love". [Hammer:] Okay. Here you go. I still can do it. Creak, creak. Okay. Max Almy, was the first woman. She was the one that introduced the world of daffodils to me. You remember her? Okay, she is now director of... well, I don't know what, Director of Art at Savannah College of Art and Design. She's the Dean. [Toscano:] She's an amazing video artist too. [Hammer:] And she is. And you've just brought her work back recently. We were talking about it. [Toscano:] Yeah, I sent it to a student to check out, who wanted to know about cyber punk, like cyberpunk stuff. [Hammer:] Yeah. [Toscano:] Yeah, yeah. [Hammer:] And she's also stars in "Superdyke Meets Madame X". Yeah, so there's more to look forward to. And then... Ruth Mahaney, I mentioned, she taught me about communism. If you want to know about our lives, she's... introduced me to the world of socialism and communism. And let's see who else is - well I've already mentioned Gloria Churchman, who was Gloria Churchwoman during her lesbian period. A woman who was married to a professor emeritus at UC Berkeley and who had a complicated life. And who only recently when I called up - well, when we were restoring for the, the retrospective at MoMA. I got in touch with a granddaughter through many phone calls. And she said, "Oh, we threw everything away." You know, including the print that we had of "Moon Goddess", which is a film that we'd made together. So really, she knew it was coming her way. Who else is in the film? Florrie, do you remember? [audience laughter] [Toscano:] Um, the sequence with the still photos? [Hammer:] That was, yeah, that's Ruth Mahaney. [Toscano:] That's Ruth, okay. [Hammer:] Isn't it funny, I didn't know how to do credits back then. [laughs] Now I'm giving you the credits for the full - I think there were more than that, but Cynthia MacAdams is the photographer, L.A. Who's - was not a lover and I think you feel the distance in that section. And not the intimacy that the others have. And so, you know, back in the '70s when I would show the film, I'd have the audience decide who was, who was the lover and who wasn't. You know, there are all these ways for have audience engagement. And that was the way, so I really appreciate that question. [Toscano:] I think there is a microphone too actually, so if somebody... There's... Is that Kelly? Yeah, yeah. Hi, Kelly Sears. [Woman in audience:] Okay, I would like to, you know, how am I going to say that? I wannna just like a kind of, think about it, you know, like in a seeing your films. Like and, you know, make me think about it, like, and I know the body is the language. And, and are you showing the this senses now, like the relationship between the brain in the body and the mouth, the touch and all these layers that you put in this image. And, and then in the end you have a body trapped in the strip of film. [Hammer:] Yep, yep. [Woman:] And they're, you know, like in a - make me feel about like and think about the idea of the body be, also be - have, be a container, be trapped in, because you show this in and out, of the, you know, the images of the organs or your brain and et cetera. I do not know, like if you can, you know, talk a little bit about, you know, all these layers that you put in this series of the films, about the idea of the body, the language, the, the idea of touch but also like, you know, like I know that you're presenting they're your lovers, but I don't know, for me, goes beyond that. And I just like, would like to hear from you about. [Hammer:] Why, I think people who work in experimental film or at least some of us do. Some of us, maybe choose it - I choose that medium because it's the only way I can express who I am. Of course, you don't have to, you can, you know, if you're a conceptual filmmaker maybe you're not working about expressing yourself. But my work, which has always been about biographical changes in my life, as seen on the screen, goes back to my sense of sensation. That - I mean, sometimes like this one what I'm gonna say right now, I didn't know when I was making the films that Jung had talked about four different kinds of intelligence: intellectual; emotional; another one; [laughs] and, and sensational. I never heard about that as a way of understanding the body. And that is knowing the body through sensate experience. So in the way I often explain this is, if I look around and for instance, this floor, I can feel the texture through my eyes that go - that relate to my body. My body feels the texture that my eyes see. And that's what I try to put on the screen. No, it's not about this particular woman or that, it's about the way I experience life. And if - it's like if each one of us took our own uniqueness and expressed that in our cinema or paintings or our writing, you know, how wonderfully diverse the world would be. And that's why I don't follow any strict form of, you know, narrative filmmaking. Because I don't experience the world that way. The world is like that: all together, all at once. And I don't think we can divide it into, you know, birth all the way to death. So that brings us back to that discussion, you know. [Toscano:] A reason comedy separated from tragedy? [Hammer:] That's true. We saw that tonight too. Yeah, so birth and death are the same. And that's not from any religion. That's just from my experience of living, and reading Gertrude Stein. [laughter] [Woman #2 in audience:] So this is actually a questions that's very much in conversation with the question that was just asked. And also I'd like to say, it's so wonderful to see your films and thank you for this beautiful work tonight. I have a little bit disclosure. This is the third Barbara Hammer screening I've seen this week, in multiple cities. I'm calling myself a "Hammerhead". [laughter] Kind of like a "Dead Head" who goes around. But in all the screenings, I've been thinking about the architecture in your work. In kind of with "Tender Fictions" really thinking about the architecture of storytelling, and a resistance to a singular narrative in there. With the shorts program at CU-Boulder, I was really thinking about a resistance to a singular frame. How it was ruptured, it was layered, it was mirrored. And kind of in conversation with this question tonight, I was thinking about the one film which kind of anchored this question for me, where we see the text "mind and body," and it wasn't "mind or body". And I was thinking about, as you were putting these films together, I really felt across all the work, it was the exteriority of a physicality and the interiority of an experience. And yet and many of the frames through techniques of abstraction, of painting, of crayon, of superimposition, be that with another layer of film, be that with the CAT scans, that you are making a place in between those two. And thinking about how you negotiated that with the different stories or subjects you were approaching in each film. [Hammer:] Well I was trying to think of a real smart, answer like [laughs] how I queered the space or something? [laughter] But maybe I did, because really all I'm about is giving myself pleasure. I'm really egocentric. [laughs] And it just delights me to be creative, to make one thing change to another. Or to have a new idea and see if I can pull it in. And, or to edit so complexly that one will have to go, "Oh, now I get it," at the end of the film. If there is an architecture of film, it's an architecture of pleasure... for me. And I can't see how one can live their life in an experimental genre, without embracing that. Because there's so little payoff. I'm so lucky that my boat has arrived. Very late in life, but it has arrived. Hoh. Many of us don't have that privilege and that pleasure. And that's why I did show the body trapped in film, because that's been my life. And I can celebrate it, but it's also a sacrifice. There are so many things I might have done, pleasures of adventure. I mean, physical adventure, not lover adventure. You know, experience of the natural world, living as a, as a ranger. Or, you know, just being a person who raises horses. There's a lot of things I let go, that I would love to have done, for film. So that architecture has defined my life. And what I was saying in Boulder, why I made this film "Available Space" that would not be shown on that rectangular screen, you know, which was devised by a man, Pathe, as well as the camera, which they talked to each other. We got a guy with a screen that works with the camera. Why didn't we have circular forms, you know? Or octagonal? Why are we defined in cinema by our traditions? And that's with "Available Space". I do go into a traditional cinema, but I show it around the, the architecture. And the images is - this is 1979 - a woman breaking out of the frame. That's not always the image but it refers back to that, trying to change the shape of film. And we can do that in many ways as we go forward in, in installations, projections. And that was part of the projecting on the inflated weather balloons, that people could circulate around. I did that at the Woman's Building here, back in '75 or something. Maybe after that. There's many ways to imagine cinema. And, that's very exciting. And I hope you radio me in the years ahead, as what's happened, you know, because I'm sure there'll be changes made. [Toscano:] Is there a microphone hanging out somewhere? Yeah, I think... [Sheila Kuehl:] You've said a lot about how personal each of the images in each of the films is to you a personal expression, and the pleasure of it and the pleasure of making it. And yet, you make a film and someone else is gonna see it. And it must occur to you that someone else is gonna see it. And when you talked about how people don't talk about death, we don't talk about it. It occurred to me that virtually every image in any of your films, are things people don't talk about. So, can you talk about that? [audience laughter] [Hammer:] You see her skill with language, don't you? You should have seen us on City Council. [laughter] I was Underdivision Womens Rep, when you were? [Kuehl:] Both of us. [Hammer:] Both of us were at the same time? [Kuehl:] Lower Division Womens Representative at UCLA. [Hammer:] Yeah, yeah. [Kuehl:] On State Legislative Council. [Hammer:] You're right. And then my career got ruined because I ran for Vice President of the student body and I had tried to get [laughs] toilet seat covers put on all the toilet seats. I'd been to the UCLA doctors and talked to 'em. They said, "Yes, if you have an open sore you could, you could be contagious." And because one of my representatives came to me and said this is important to me. And I was so like not politically focused, that I would take anything in, and try to follow it out. [Kuehl:] You were ahead of your time, Barb. [Hammer laughs] [Hammer:] So your question was...? [Kuehl:] About making things - all the things that you talked about, nobody talks about. All the things that you showed whether they were done personally for your own pleasure. Sure, but you were also talking about things nobody talked about. [Hammer:] But Sheila, I really have to confess, that for the most part, I don't think about the audience. I really, I mean with some of my documentaries most of which aren't going to be shown, because they're not film, they're become digital, later in my life and I bring in my brain more than my body and it's maybe even more traditional, although I like to think of them as expanded documentaries but... When I'm sitting there, I really am thinking about him. Oh my God, making love with a woman. I'd been heterosexual for nine years. Changed my life, totally turned it around. I had a different worldview. True, I had a different worldview when I saw the films of Stan Brakhage too, but it turned my life in a different way. So that when I make work, it's really about me! That's why I said I'm so egocentric. And I don't think if you make work thinking about audience - who knows the audience? Let's poll them here. There will be so many diverse answers. And I don't want to make something that everybody likes. That's not what I'm about, otherwise I'd be in politics, right? [audience laughter] Uh oh. [laughs] And I think that way, you can make the most brave work. And that's what I was inscribing in the books today, you know, "Be bold. Be brave. Follow your own vision, your own heart." Just things we've heard over and over again. But as students or beginning filmmakers, we so often, [sighs] can't take that big breath, to be totally ourselves. You know, I was really afraid when I made "Dyketactics" in my - when I was in undergraduate, becoming - no, I was a graduate - becoming a filmmaker because all my professors were men. And there was nobody out in, in the school. Even the woman who shot us making love, I didn't know she was gay, until later. You know, it was a very... closeted time. And of course, it was just the beginning of the feminist, lesbian, feminist revolution there in the '70s. And it wasn't talked about at the school I went to, San Francisco State University. But now, there's a Barbara Hammer Queer Filmmaking Award in the Cinema Department. We gave the first one last year and the second will be this year. So yeah, things have changed, as you well know. And you've helped make them change. [Toscano:] I was just thinking, you, I believe, told me and you've written, that one of the first screenings you had outside of the lesbian community was with Filmforum, here. I mean, it was originally was Pasadena Filmforum at that time, but and L.A. Filmforum, which I'm also involved with and Adam Hyman is here, who runs it, you know, or co-sponsoring the screening too. And I mean, it makes me really happy to think that L.A., like, was ahead of the curve a little bit. [Hammer:] They called me, Terry Cannon called me in San Francisco and said, "Would you come down and show your films?" And I went, "Really? I'm a lesbian filmmaker, you know." And I'd only shown in women's coffee houses, you know, and at the Cinematheque. I hadn't really traveled with my work. I didn't know it was possible then. And I went down, and there was this lovely audience and they loved my work. And, you know, was the tradition there that you take a coin and you put it on the train track behind the theater. And we did that and, you know, straight people like lesbian film is what I found out. [audience laughter] And, and so my life has gone on and then and never, I had a little problem with "Dyketactics" because I really, I was naïve making many of these films. They weren't made for classes, by the way. They were all made because I had to make them. And with "Dyketactics", I had put Alix Dobkin's soundtrack on my film. You know, "anyone can be a lesbian". It's, it's really fun to look at that film today. And, and then I found out you're supposed to get permission. [laughs] And she said, "Sure, as long as you could promise me, you know, no man will see the film." And I thought, "Uh uh. Not going into that closet." I said, "No, I can't promise you that," and so I had to make that second soundtrack, which is what we heard with the Moog synthesizer. Now, years later, I'm in Woodstock, New York. We're both in our sixties or more and I said, "You know, would you ever reconsider?" And she's walking there with two grandchildren, who are boys, and she says, "Oh, I'm not a separatist anymore." [laughter] So then I made "Dyketactics" times two. It's really fun to watch because you have these two different soundtracks in the same image, and yet you see it totally different. You know, it's like the control of sound over the way we perceive. Yeah. [Toscano:] Maybe a couple more questions. Over there. [Man in audience:] So what you just said and your earlier delight in rubbing the microphone on the chair, sort of compels me to ask about your sound. I don't have like any kind of way of wanting to elaborate that. Your approach, your... priorities. Just your sound. I'm very curious. [Hammer:] Well, with every film it's a different approach. You know, I don't have any - I like experimental avant-garde music. Let's start there, with what do I listen to. If I have an opportunity, I'm all alone, because most other people don't like it. [laughs] To talk about the last film "Evidentiary Bodies", Scott's a friend of mine. We did a performance together where he was going around the room and cello, playing the cello, pushing 'em. A container of liquid that would go into my body and I was dealing with cancer in it. And their projections about cancer is, you know, not a battle and on and on. And we jammed together. And through that jamming I found it a lot of fun. And I said, "I wanted a track, would you be interested?" 'Cause I made the film. And I guess I could say that. I make the work first visually and then work with the sound or leave the film silent. So that is a standard approach. And he said, "yes." I said, "You start it out with Haydn," and I said, "Oh, it's gripping, but we can't have, you know, a classical tone, except for little tidbits of it here and there." And then, of course, when it was finished, he decided that he'd like to make a new soundtrack. So, he doubled the soundtrack and I haven't even listened to that yet to determine if it should maybe go into the, the three-screen intimate piece that we'll do at the Wexner. You know, with "Women I Love", it was that same thing as with the imagery. What kind of sound can evoke? You know, and of course Gloria was a fantastic person and a very skilled lover. I like the ocean and the foreverness of that ocean. So it just really varies according. And always collage. Always a mixture and a cutting up, so that the audience is active. Because if I give you a soundtrack that'll put you to sleep, or if I don't challenge you audio-wise, as well as visual, you know, I haven't done my job. My job is to bring the audience to life, so that when you leave the cinema, you'll do what you can for the people struggling with the fires. You'll continue the great work you've done about getting people out to vote. You won't be left in a dream state, in an escapist kind of a cinema. And that's the same thing with why the body's in the film, and the body is moving and, and there's so much collage. You have to be alert. And then when you're alert, you've got blood running through your body, through your brain, and you make wiser decisions. That's my job. [audience applause] [Toscano:] I feel like that's the perfect ending actually, right? I gotta let you off the hook. [Hammer:] I think we heard it was. I thank you so much. [applause until end] [Toscano:] Thank you, Barbara. Yeah, thank you everyone. Thank you, K.J. [Hammer:] Thank you, Mark. Thank you, R.J. I look forward to talking to you tomorrow. Thank you, Mark. [audience applause]