American Neorealism I Q&A with Charles Burnett

[Ross Lipman] What was your first... when did your first desire to be a filmmaker happen? [Charles Burnett] I think it was in the... ...'50s to some extent, and I say this because I always wanted to shoot a camera of some kind, you know, and I got interested in still photography, but never had a chance to do anything in it. And for some reason I just had this thing about wanting to shoot a film. And this friend of mine had a regular 8 camera. And I lived right under the flight path of LAX, you know, like near Century Boulevard, and out a lot. And so the planes would fly over all the time. And so this guy had this camera. I used to work at this car wash, we all did, and he had this camera, a regular 8 camera, and he let me point it at the airplane and film it, you know, and I was just amazed with it. And that was the first, and I didn't pick up a camera after that until I got into UCLA, actually. But I mean, I didn't, I never thought of like telling a story as such, but what I wanted to do, and I wanted to document, this junior high school I went to. Because it was just awful, you know. I mean, and I tell these stories about how this one particular teacher in class. He would go down the aisle and point out students, and he would say you're not gonna be anything, and you're not gonna be anything, you know... and And of course he came to me and said the same thing. "You're not gonna be anything." I was very offended by that, you know, and I remember walking back, looking at the school, and I knew how the kids in my neighborhood, how they would, how they were destroyed. And I wasn't good in English or anything like that, in writing. But I just had this thing, I want to say something about this, want to document this or something. And I went to high school, and the same thing in high school. So I had forgot about this promise that I made to myself and I majored in electronics, and that's where I met Charles Bracy, over there, one of my actors. And then forgot about it until I picked up a camera, a 35, and tried to do... you know, a shooting like... like news reporting stuff, you know, that you see like, you know, like things like these photojournalists would do. [Lipman] Right, yeah, using still cameras to create narratives. [Burnett] Yeah, I did that, and that ended my first day out on the shoot was my last, in a sense. Because I'd got this camera, I brought this really cheap 35 camera, And so I started taking pictures. And the first picture I took, pictures I took, was this young lady who had overdosed. And so I had this camera, and I just, oh this is a good opportunity, and so I went running around taking pictures. The police were all around and blocking everyone from getting close. But they didn't bother me, I was just being very obtrusive, you know, just going in and shooting these pictures of this poor lady. And there was this young lady, who was, she had cerebral palsy, and was walking toward me, and I had stopped to reload and she sort of came up to me very slowly and gradually, and she was very kind, and she said, "Why are you taking pictures?" And I said something stupid like, "Oh it's just for fun." And she said, "Even of tragedies?" And it just hit me in a certain way, I just put the camera down, and that was the end of that. So I then was going to UCLA, and I had majored in electronics, and so I got tired of that. And I got into this really wonderful writing class taught by Isabelle Ziegler, and that's when I got interested in writing and storytelling, was through her. The way she taught writing, it made me aware of the potential of storytelling. But I had sort of a visual kind of way of looking at things. So I tried to get into USC because it's right next to my house, you know, close to it... So it's this catch-22, like, you can enroll, but you have to have the money for the tuition first. And I wanted to get in to apply for a loan, and they said no you have to have the money first, and then you can apply for the loan. But I need to... it didn't make any sense to me, you know, how they had it structured. And so we argued and argued, so I just called up UCLA and they were like, "Yeah! Come on over", and, dah-dah-dah-dah! It was like, okay. I mean they were so inviting, you know, and just really... I'm obviously so glad I went there, in many ways. It was a fun time being at UCLA, then. It was only $15 a quarter, or something like that. [Lipman laughs] And that was the good and bad thing about it because we actually stayed there until they kicked us out, you know. [Lipman] Yeah, you were famous for that, right? How many years were you there? [Burnett] Oh, don't say [laughs] It was awful. But where else can you make movies, you know? You know you had equipment, you had Eclairs, you had Arriflex, all the sort of thing. You had use of the sound stage, you had all the sorts of mixing facilities. Why leave? I mean, you know. [Lipman] Did they finally kick you out? [Burnett] Yes, they did. [Lipman laughs] [Burnett] They kicked a lot of us out because we had the... you know, the only place where we can make films. [Lipman] So, you're there. Where did you get the inspiration to make, "Killer of Sheep" in particular? [Burnett] Well, everyone was making their films, basically, particularly people of color. The department wasn't really... it really didn't have that number of people of color in the department. It had a few, but not really like a mass of students. And then when some of these programs came in, Elyseo Taylor brought in... [Lipman] He was a faculty member at the time. [Burnett] Yeah, one of the first Black teachers here. And he instituted this program called, what was it, Third World Films, or something like that, or Ethno-communications, or something like that, and he brought in a quota, a number of Native American people who entered film. Latinos, and Asian, and Black and like five or six of each, I can't remember how many more of us. Then we all started talking about what is, what are we supposed to be doing? What is a film that would represent us? And those are the ongoing discussions all the time. And so, I know, like Billy Woodberry, when he came, and Haile, and people like that. We'd have these meetings all the time, late at night. We would stay up all night, basically, and just argue about films. And what are we supposed to be doing. But it was right after the civil rights movement, you know. And we all sort of felt that we had, it was our responsibility to do something to try to make, do something social, to make a social change and use film as a means of doing that, you know. So it wasn't about making a film that was going to be just indulging and pure entertainment, you know, it had to be meaningful. [Lipman] Now you began at UCLA, and your filmmaking, quite early, I think "Several Friends" was late '60s. Was this community already starting to form there, or were you a little bit ahead of your time there then? [Burnett] No, it wasn't so much on the campus, but outside. And South Central, Watts community, like that, though a lot of people who were writing in different art forms, and expressing... what was going on, and what should have been going on. You had Martin Luther King, you had Malcolm X, you had a lot of people who were... had things to say about who we are, and how we're living, and things like that, and so there are a lot of choices. And you felt that you had to be a part of that. [Lipman] Because I see, I think all of us probably see, a lot of very vibrant, socially motivated films coming from that era, but there's not too much in the U.S. like "Killer Of Sheep" happening at that time. "Several Friends", as well. "Killer Of Sheep" originated, the early shooting of it, I think, began in like 1969? [Burnett] But it began earlier... because I did "Several Friends" and... and then that, and... because I wanted to stay in school, because I just waited, and waited, and waited, and graduated and then went on to graduate school. And the funny part was that you know, you get advanced to candidacy, you know, and it didn't mean anything. So I just overstayed you know, and so they finally caught up with me and said, "you know you have enough credits, we can give you a degree." And I said "no, no"... I wanted to get a degree and I been advanced to candidacy, and that's all there is to it. And so they they made this thing where you can only be here for so many semesters, or quarter, you know. But... [Lipman] Anyway, so, but okay, so thinking back to those early days or even I guess to the present I know that you know you had a well-versed in films you were seeing films from all over the world, I think, at that time. Did the Italian neorealist films that are inspiring this series have any particular...? [Burnett] Yes, in fact, you know, there were a lot of great films shown here and Royce Hall and also there was this climate where as, You know, films from all over world all the new waves and things like that were showing. And we would, as students, it was almost as though they were films done by our community. I mean, you know, we felt a part of that, you know when when, you know, Bresson, Resnais, Who did "Pather Panchali"? Ray. [Lipman] Oh, Satyajit Ray. [Burnett] And also we were, when we heard about his films we were like standing at the door waiting for them to come here, you know, we would, you know be first one in line and things like that, you know, so we were very much aware and looking for those films. Neorealism did play a big part and impacting on me in many ways because we were all trying to get at to truth, you know, and one of the things why I did "Killer of Sheep" the way it was the way it is because it's like not trying to impose your values on a story, but letting the story sort of come, you know, on its own, in a way, because I... One of the things that I learned when I was going here was that, though I come from the community, my whole idea is an idea about things changed and so I didn't feel like I was the person to sort of like dictate or to say, "if you do this A-B-C, then this should happen, and you should follow that, you know, example." I wanted the story to come from if you were observing life in the community. You know, what are the things that's essential if you go back, what would you see, you know? And how would it resolve itself and not through you but just naturally? [Lipman] That's one of the things that interests me about, you know, you're describing this very vibrant historical moment where there's a lot of interest in developing alternative voices even in those early ages. But there's not too many people outside of yourself at that point who were doing, exploring this kind of neorealist approach like or this more open-ended approach. There was a lot of I think overt activism, which is great. I mean, I love those films too But were you aware that you were doing something different than your colleagues? [Burnett] Well, you sort of had to because you know, you know It wasn't that I had to respond to the chemo UCLA community but to my neighborhoods because these films were made To be shown in the community to have some dialogue and things like that. And and I knew that you know, I Mean among my friends. I was one of the few that went On to college in a way and and and we had different ideas, you know about everything, you know It's I didn't feel that I could be a spokesperson for anyone but myself In fact, that was brought Very clearly in many ways. That was just barbar that and Watts I used to go to and There were two older guys who from the south and would have these political discussions all the time in the barber shop and And I remember this there's one particular day that there was Paul Robinson's birthday and You know, I was all hyped about that and going into the barbershop and and and changing the conversation about Oh Paula was and this and that no, no no no no and and and they looked at me and and we got in a big argument about that and they had this attitude that they Respected Paul Reubens as an artist but not as a patriot because he had talked against against this country and I was really shocked about that and I'm saying like you guys for Mississippi and you're talking about You know Criticizing here's a man who's trying to talk to you about, you know, the conditions of human conditions, you know And you're upset about because he said something Against America that you're upset about these hasn't been to the army and stuff like that Yeah, they're right Mississippians suffered all sorts of indignities and I thought they would be just right for right? No, they were like really pro This is what's not Pro-american and all that stuff and then we ended up and his heated argument They told me that look I'll give you ticket to Russia if you promise not to come back, you know And so I knew that thing it was all over you know I can only argue and speak for myself and and and there were other incidents like that way And now you've got the whole didn't kill her. If you've got the beautiful ambiguity of ropes and singing in the film kind of raises all those questions in a beautiful way So then flash-forward it took many years to make killer of sheep between the time was begun in the late 60s and the time was finished in 77 You've got the LA rebellion Or what would later be called that starting to form and I think at a certain point along the way would it be correct to? Say that you grew into a mentor role for a lot of the the filmmakers who were coming up around I mean you were helping them out and teaching them how to do things Well, I think it one of the good things about UCLA at the time was that When you win here I mean you you you had to work on everyone's film if possible because this way we can make films, you know basically its share and and And be a part of the community, you know here and we would all work on different you know films and so it was just a part of your makeup at a certain point, you know, and and then when This large group of students of color came about you know They sort of depended on on you and you didn't think that you were doing anything special except for that was a part of the being a student and being a filmmaker and to to be there for people because we all You know worked on each other's films It's men among them was at a certain point Billy would bury you tell us about your early meetings with Billy Well Like We had started I tell you about these meetings we had that went on all during the night and things like that and And we would talk about you know making films and what films should be about and so we had agreed to sort of work on a film together and And so this came about this this working together Billy asked me would I work on a film with him? I said sure and killers she posed was unoccupied she my best little hearts wasn't result of that and And we shot it and That was it Do you have any thoughts looking back on these films now or well We didn't know I mean we didn't know what they were going to be or how long they will last because it wasn't Meant to be shown theatrically or such, you know, we just thought it was you make the film and you have this limited Release an audience, you know We had the opportunity to discrete the film's Throw Bowser Who's known for? her Involvement in trying to get films shown throughout the communities pretty back east, you know, and she put on a program and an Oliver Franklin who did the same thing of getting these black and independent films together and took and Tutoring them, you know around the states, you know, so we had an opportunity a couple years to visit these different cities and the black community and Talk about what what we did and what sort of What kind of venues were you playing? And when you did those tours from churches to theaters having small theaters or whatever, you know They would flow wall that I rented or whatever it is community Places so they would set up a 16 projector and or they set up a 16 projector Because most of the films are 16, and I don't think anyone maybe can't the colony it had 35 or something like that my quite sure but most of the warrants were 16 Okay. Thanks fascinating So then after bless the hearts and I guess in the middle was my brother's wedding But your later films then started moving a little bit away from that neo-realist aesthetic I would say maybe I'm wrong to say that but do you feel that that's true. And if so, Why did your why do you start moving into different directions? What what factors led to the Advancement of your career in a different direction. Um, I think you cannot Trying to get a wider audience and trying to grow And do something different. I remember when I did kill a sheep there was this response that oh, it's just a dry film and it's only represents a small segment of the population I was mean but the film is about my friends You know and everything in it, and it may be exaggerated to some extent but it all happened you know in a different way and I would just read I I was just Recreating the things that I saw whereas As opposed to imposing as I mentioned before I'm opposed in my value of other thing It was then I'm trying to make sense out of what I saw, you know, and and that sort of thing You know, but but other thing, you know you and the thing is like when I went off to do something else, you know Some of the critics would say well, you know, yeah you you've changed You know you your values. No, I don't think it just just moved on and you know, you always it's sort of cyclic in a way you come back, you know you like to do so things a lot of it depends on Distribution and trying to get it out there, you know certain films do well some tables don't you know and As as you go, I guess Further further from school. I mean you have to do something that You know is gonna make a living for you right now. So the circumstance opportunity Everything I mean you didn't have the free film school around you anymore No, make sure they just kept you Institute of school for another 40. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I'm glad they kicked me out in many ways You know, so hey grow up and do you want to tell us about some of your current projects sir? Well, it's it's it's always a struggle, you know to try to do something in this business, you know I've always been reluctant to say, you know you know to say you filmmaker, you know because you do it so infrequently, you know, and so it was like if you you know, I I Always compare myself to my plumber said my plumber the plumbers I call. Yeah, and I Mean he comes the least a little stoppage, you know, it comes open to open a sink up. That's looks like 950 dollars You know, and I'm looking at him, you know And you go home you have any worries or anything like that you have to argue with anyone about this that you know You know how many people you know hire and all sorts of craziness and it's really envious that you know you see these guys, you know, I said guys you don't have any problems at all, you know, and and but And you're working You know runs on in and trying to get a phone so you know talking to people about why this shit why this film should be made, you know, and they look at you like, uh, Uh, you know, I'm not interested that you know, and and and you see it, you know, you can play Okay Other films that they are being made, you know, and and and I don't want to sound You know to India's crazy, whatever it is, but you'd be surprised how Some films you see how these people make this thing, you know What would and you go there with something you think is halfway decent, you know, I can't get off the ground. You know, I mean I went to At the laughs because I remember I was working with this Producer we thought we had this shoo-in, you know, we had this this Book that Richard Wright had written and it was a classic help so he brought this to Showtime and And We had this ladies, you know It wasn't developed but we thought oh, she's gonna be on our side and everything. And so it was a Richard Wright story And so we were talking and you know, you have this beard we're trying to to you know Break the ice and get familiar and all that stuff. And so we were doing that and and It started going badly when I mentioned Denzel Washington did this movie called the Great Debaters or something and I thought it was a very good movie, you know and And so I brought that up and I said, you know, yeah You know degree debate is I was a really good movie and she sort of stopped. I like to imagine She said I didn't like it I knew that was that was the wrong thing to say and bring out and so The other person was like uh-huh, so so we got to the subject matter he and I said, well, you know we had this thing by Richard Wright and we like to consider it, you know, it's one all kind of, you know awards night and She said I know he pitched his story. She said I was boring you Know why you want to do that? Okay, then so we said well well, well, what are you guys interested in? Oh, we're gonna do this film about Louie. I understand Oh, that's great. I really yeah, that's a good subject. And so what's it about? Well, it's it's about Louie Armstrong I'm being kidnapped by the mob And oh I mean the kind of The stuff that you get in here, you know You have to you know your stomach just so it's like twisting and well like that, but you have to be you know otherwise if you Say anything that's you know questioning it so my pedestal. Oh you are this You know, what is it? You know angry black man, you know, I Have got that, you know, you can't be honest in this business because if you say if you say they raised the others racism But you'll have to say it like that Nobody said yeah There's a bit of that and and and some and so it happens and so I must have said that but in how the papers Exaggerate things and so I was on this particular shoot once in this producer. This lady came to me and she said You know, you've been extraordinary in a certain way. I said, what do you mean? Well, we thought you're gonna be this angry black man And I'm going with you. Where did you get that from? You know, I'm not getting angry, you know, I'm trying to keep And I'm saying what She said but you've been totally different. You know that yeah, okay But you know, that's it's just I don't you can't say anything you know and you learn to to You know, I must have said something in the past that really got me in trouble But no, it's really crazy I tell you, you know, and you know, it's like trying to You know either did they come back and say now, what did I do wrong today? What did that? What did I say? As soon as I do think about, you know, I try to go back over the years I must have said something and I do remember Saying something about one producer That I I knew I shouldn't have said And I think that's been positive You know my problem in many ways. I mean what lessons you won? Listen, I can give you is don't Say anything don't I mean if you what happens is like I've been in situations where I don't say anything about any other mentioning names because I know Someone's relative is sitting right out there, you know, and there was my gosh you're Charles He was on the stage the other night and he was saying, you know, you said this and that, you know okay, you know but I mean any advice I would give I'd say just you don't have to say anything, you know just Stick to the story and you want to make a fair one. Yeah, and whatever they To say yeah, that's great. That's great. But you may be surprised, you know but if you'd be critical and I think that's one of the things that we were talking at the restaurant about how that You know, one of the things that were taught at UCLA, is that to be critical, you know? really and You know, you would be in Royce hall. You know, I don't even know even diverse. All right. Yeah Only a few yeah. Oh All the more hands don't get fest no, and so you know even being there and it was at the time I was in the sixties and they were vicious just the teachers and Teachers and the students, it's Phil Koretsky around still. Oh Okay, s feel Goreski and these guys who've been there Yeah, and yeah, and they can tell you yes a my buddy tell you how they would tell you, you know Like your film was this film was a bunch of crap and stuff like that. Literally, you know, and you would Yeah, and and you would go there thinking Oh my god, you know I know I'm gonna be crucified so but but it really helped you anyway And I mean we're going to flirty and it was so vicious, but I had gotten conditioned by UCLA Yeah, so nothing I can say would hurt, you know, so anyway I don't know how I got on that but we talked about how it's different now. Oh, yeah Yeah, we're gonna get to questions in a minute. Yeah, not that I can answer them. Yeah Yeah, did you want to finish that? No, I I just want it doesn't matter. Okay? Alright sure. We'll go to questions then. Yes, so Okay You talked a lot about Eliseo taylor's cloud and the way in which it was you know a sir bulwark for the emerging black filmmakers besides yourself Larry Clark Halle Garima, Julie - what have you? Can you talk a little bit about what what specifically you got from from him? and from that space that kind of led to Sort of opening your idea of what a movie could be like cuz I remember all you saying that You know your experiences with the movies before then would not have allowed you to kind of formulate this kind of You know flat sort of neo-realist tale Well, yep. So Taylor was unusual guy in many ways. I don't know its history too much because were sort of vague in a way I know he was in the army and I think he was in the army and and a tank corps that Was it's a patent in the battle of bulge or something like that And he was one of those guys but he was very interesting here study economics in Germany. But but what he did was He brought this film group together all these different people which I think it at the time at desfile There was only not that many people of color There and I can probably name all the ones that were of colour at the time, but he brought he brought equipment there and and so a lot of these guys who had no idea of About film he made it possible for them But think in those terms that you can be a film regular Alana went often to be and became executives and things like that so he had a very powerful impact but one of the things he did was He provided The space innocence innocence, but he encouraged you to take advantage of it and he didn't Give any quarters he didn't Make you Think that all you're gonna get this for nothing have a free ride we had to tell these students that no, you're supposed to be making films about your community and what it is to be a Latino whatever on and on and on that in and as a TA ended up and in the class, you know and students would come and say I don't have any money to Do this Anyone say I don't need it, you know so I know what they're gonna do. Are you had any acid? No, is it no, well look all these other students come here. They do it on their own They don't have to learn to do it. So he made them feel not that they're gonna be spoon-fed But they had to produce There to be to do something special, you know And as opposed to just doing something like Hollywood or something that I mean commercial kind of ideas No, you had to be there. He wanted a program that if you were A black person. I want to see what it means You know, how do you see that? and a lot of people came in a lot of people, uh-uh-uh, you know, people can't even think of terms like doing Whatever, you know But no in the program. He he got money for he wanted you to do this It was his program and I think that really helped the students because we we talked about that a lot, you know And in fact Ethel Communications came out of their, you know, third world cinema came, right and that was one of the important features of UCLA at that time was having these particular films political films that really Gave us ideas of what we're supposed to be doing and and the trends and things I mean like oh Monson Ben, I think he had one of the first He invited us Bunsen bin and a bunch of other African Filmmakers to come to UCLA and so we had to sit down and talk with these filmmakers, you know Which do you recall your meeting with? His Munson beam. I beg at the time But never had a because actually it honestly was kind of new for him for me, you know But like the third wheel film though they were just amazing You know you see the time agcl a bit was and As something you were he and he said at the time could testify the fact that you know there was this diversity of students a lot of students were making films about You know flower children, you know hippie movement sister fire going to Topanga Canyon how many of you go to Topanga Canyon oh Okay, I beg miss Amy bad about it Yeah, but but all this office turns out there was to do this thing to go up that the pain good, you know But I wasn't a part of that, you know unput well Yeah, oh, I'm sure I know but no was very open in many ways. But but you know, there was a lot of Nudity going on and stuff like that. You know that that that yeah that everyone but I was like, you know, I Don't know it was it was a different experience because I just came from, you know, South Central, you know And did coming to UCLA was a whole different experience, you know For for many of us. I tell you one of the things I would say and you can appreciate this. Okay? Where I lived If you walk down the street to please to stop you, you know, and they'll go through your pants pockets And you know how you you have you these seams and your clothes like this and your pockets? Let go there trying to find little seeds of marijuana and all this kind of stuff, you know, really? You know and didn't call you all kind of names, you know, you're like, I don't know. It's awful and and I didn't smoke or anything like that. So now what does UCLA and I shouldn't say this bad about UCLA But anyway, they happen it happens in all schools but anyway I went to you know and melnitz Hall you're on a second floor and then and the people at the physical plan Who are the police would come through the hall with a clipboard and everything walk down? you know with his khaki pants on or whatever and and so there was they would be like volumes of smoke marijuana coming out the vents you know and I would always be paranoid because they're you know because we're I can finally he just looked like he your eyes were red or anything like that and sees you're gone, you know, so these guys will walk down the hall and Nothing that wouldn't react to anything just walk down the hall though the smoke coming through there I'll just stand there like Just this is different world That totally did overall, you know, so anyway, I don't know why I get under this Speaking speaking Charles speaking. Also to that So speaking to that aspect of Coming from the east side to the west side I just want to mention that that is a plot factor in your short film several friends Which will be showing On the last night of the series and I think we have time for about one more question out there Maybe over there you got which I Guess I'm wondering You were talking a lot about kind of the differences between we grew up even between you know South Central and Westwood compared to other places And you talked about showing your film so I was curious about how it was when he showed your film to your friends or it's a family or to folks in the community and what that looked like like where it was and what the reactions were well if well, at first when I painted film it didn't get to show except for of course here first and then and Colleges and museums and things like that. So it was that audience at first Then when mouths don't came about and people like that in Pearl Bowser and Oliver Franklin where I talk to you about all the favorite Pillow bells are send it around in the community where we all can see, we also went there and spoke and churches and neighborhoods and things like that, which is very good and Because you had to respond to people and some people they always have different responses and even like it is like or all sorts of things, you know, but one of the things is that I learned and most of the filmmakers that did that learned a great deal from because you I Mean you make the film for them and they're the ones who sort of give you You know You know, it's like You learn from them what you did and what you did wrong, but what you need to be doing from them, you know you can't just make a film and We're not wanting a response You know from an audience and for me that was one of the best things was having this dialogue between people with different Categories in different places in different communities from the south on up to the north and other places where you wouldn't you know Even you know where it's basically a pure white audience, you know, basically, you know Which I found very interesting because you know, one of the things that was said about you know These these people that produce films I said, well, you know white people wouldn't understand this, you know and then I was in Indiana and I'm basically a white audience and the audience thought respond say well, how can we don't see more films like this and I was there was CPB cooperation, we just told me you know I've made a film called sleeper Langer and I said do you not don't do this felt like black culture and stuff like that because He wouldn't understand it. Okay, so after the film in Indiana there's wide audience. And the first thing he said to said was how can we don't see more films like this and I said, Because these people in cpp was sitting right behind me and I said ask them because they said you wouldn't understand No and I put them on us, you know, and I said But they never asked me you know that sort of thing like this But this is this is what they say all the time You know Europeans don't like these kind of feels Japanese don't like these kind of films Whatever it is and every time you screen your film there That someone in the audience would always say how come we don't see these films Yeah, so someone is lying to us or whatever it is. I don't know what I shouldn't say it like that. No, you know But yeah, but that's been the general idea and and and and and you set it around you have to explain well I don't know. That's what they say, you know All right, well Charles, thank you so much for joining. Thank you