A Tribute to Penelope Spheeris | Penelope Spheeris with Mark Toscano

(Mark Toscano) You're going to see tonight, all the shorts in a variety of formats. Partly because that's how she made them, and partly for reasons of the restoration process. So it'll be a mix of film prints and a few digital files, and if you want we can talk the Q&A about that... But I want to bore you with that right now. I think it's a really special program. It's really among my favorite stuff that I've ever gotten to work on. And it's additionally some of my favorite stuff I get to show from time to time in various contexts. Especially when I get to do it with you. Will you join me here for a little intro? Penelope Spheeris. (applause) (Toscano) We're like a comedy team at this point, right? (Spheeris) I know. We've been doing this together for a while... Don't get jealous Becca. Ha-ha. Where do we begin? See what was the guys name? Was it Mark Pogochevsky? How do you say it? (Toscano) Pogorzelski. (Spheeris) Yeah that guy Anyway, at the archive. Yeah? (Toscano) He's the director of the Academy Film Archive. (Spheeris) Yeah. He's really cool. He called me up one day, nobody can say his name, they call him Pogo. He'd call me up one day, and he [said] how about we restore on the Decline movies? I was like, you just think I'm going to die. I know that's why you're saying this so, no. Then I felt really bad, and then Mark called me, and he said he had a girlfriend that knew how to spin through film. Nobody knows how to do that anymore, you know, they just know how to... (gestures). So this girl came to work for me. That was Mark's girlfriend. ...I'm getting there Doug is about ready to throw rocks at me. So this girl came in, and she went through all my old prints. We went through, and she was really good at it, because nobody can handle film anymore, and she could do it, we sorted through everything. And because Mark is such a personable, nice guy, the restorations started, and then along the way, we would be standing in the vault, and he'd go, "Oh, what's this?" I'd go, "Aw, some movie I made at UCLA". "Well, can I take a look at it?" So then every time we would go to the vault he would snitch something else, right? And that's your program you're going to be watching this evening. I'm really glad he did it. Thank you. I'll see you in a bit. (applause) (Toscano) So the first two films that we saw tonight, we saw, Synthesis, and Bath, and these are two that anytime we've talked about them, we've done a couple shows like this, they don't seem to be your favorites necessarily. (Spheeris) No... (Toscano) I remember that at, Ann Arbor film festival we showed them and you did the intro and then you left. I think you went to get something to eat, and on your way out you stopped me in the back, and you watch the little of Synthesis, and you turned to me and said, "That's a stupid fucking movie isn't it?" And then with, Bath I remember when we were watching the first print, you turned to me at one point said, "She really likes washing her vagina doesn't she?" (Spheeris) Did I say that you did? (Toscano) You seen him to be a little bit dismissive of those two, but I don't know, I think yeah, okay they're student films, but there's there's so much interesting stuff going on there, and they're kind of cool actually. No? (Spheeris) If I didn't make those films, and I saw them, I would think the person that made them was crazy. You know. Because there's so many different kinds of films there. Synthesis, ya I shot that little movie, it was my very first movie, and it was way too long. I had no idea what it was about. I mean, and nobody ever will. Can I cut it down a little bit? (Toscan) I'll give you a copy of it, you can do it every you want. (Spheeris) Really?! (Toscano) Yes, sure why not? Yeah, I mean that so that was your first UCLA student film, and it was shot on eight-millimeter. (Spheeris) Project one, yes. (Toscano) But it's a pretty, kind of cool, stylish eight-millimeter student film. If I do say, I've seen a lot of student films. There were a lot of great people at UCLA at that time. Your contemporaries, and people before and after you. But this is pretty damn good when it comes to the first student film by a student at the time. (Spheeris) I think I was enamored with George Lucas's was that one called, THX oh, what's the number 1124? How many who's got the number,11, 1138 that one, yeah. Thank you. Yeah, I think, you know maybe I was inspired by that or something. I don't remember. It was so long ago. It was like Really, really, long ago. Ha-ha. You know, people are different people in their lives. You know what I mean? Like I look at these movies, and I feel as I see the different stages of my life in the different movies I've made. I mean these are the ones that I made before I actually started making, you know, feature films. But you know, you just, you evolve and you have all these different issues and problems that you have to deal with, and either you get through em or you don't, you know. I always say, I should have been dead or in jail. I mean those are the people I was, I'm not kidding. Those are, my brothers here tonight, he knows. How we were raised-up, you know, raised-up in trailer Parks. My mom was married all those times, and it was just total chaos. That's why when punk rock came along, I felt right at home. Because like, chaos, yeah, cool, okay. (Toscano) Kind of Carnivalesque. (Spheeris) Yeah, so it was fine, but I mean I'm really thankful, that these films have been put back together. And I am eternally grateful to you for doing it. I can't imagine that people would want to see them, but I thank you all for coming here, ha-ha! (Toscano) The film, Shit, I should just say maybe briefly, that was one that didn't have titles on it or anything. And part of that is because we found it in sort of a not quite completed state. But when we looked at it we thought this is completed enough to sort of preserve, and show it as-is. It's pretty funny. (Spheeris) Well I really am so thankful that you did it. I forgot that I made it. Most of the films actually, I forgot that I made. And that you found and put them back together is extremely flattering. (Toscano) But that one you you told me once that maybe was made under the influence of Richard Pryor. (Spheeris) Yeah, I had just started working with Richard Pryor at that time. My daughter's father Bobby, who shot these movies, you see his credit, Robert Schoeller up there. He had the noticed one day when we were on campus at UCLA, that Richard Pryor had just walked right in front of us. So we went and talked to him. Richard said he was there looking for some kids to help him make a movie. So with Richard Pryor, Bobbi and I would work with Richard Pryor for about, God, two years. It was before really Richard had you know gotten to his level of notoriety and fame that he reached finally. But yeah, I spent a lot of time with Richard. And I think that sensibility there in that film, it was just having has worked with him. And later, I don't know, why I guess because I had some tragedies in my life, God was trying to um cheer me up a little bit. So he put me in the same room with a lot of really brilliant comedians so that I could laugh a little ha-ha. We had Albert Brooks, we had Mike Myers... So many comedians. I've ended up working with it's bizarre. (Toscano) I was thinking watching, "I don't Know" and especially, a"Hats Off To Hollywood", there's a lot of humor in both of those films. But it's always kind of got this undercurrent of something kind of desperate, something kind of difficult, something maybe very tragic, and then that mix of the comedy and tragedy that you do really seamlessly. Also in a lot of your other work, even Suburbia and films like that, is something that Richard is also kind of known for in a way. Kind of undercutting a lot of the humor with a certain kind of harsh reality. I'm wondering if this is something you've been conscious of, that approach to humor. (Spheeris) I mean, I think what we do as film makers often, I think, is to work through our personal, you know um, problems while making the films. I know I did that with Suburbia. And I probably in a way with, Dudes as well. That was screened here last night. I don't know, it's um you know, you got to get through life somehow, and have some creative outlet I think, to handle things. I do anyway. And now I'm not making films so much. I mean, we're restoring a lot of things you know, like the Decline movies and everything, but um it's funny. I like to build houses now, just because you know, ha-ha. because all the other phony projects don't work so, film projects, yeah. (Toscano) So, I Don't Know and, Hats Off To Hollywood remain like two of my absolute favorite things I've ever gotten to work on. Among my favorite films (Spheeris) Hats Off To Hollywood? (Toscano) Both. I Don't Know and Hats Off To Hollywood, just two of my favorite films. (Spheeris) They kind of fit together good, because you end up on Dana in the first one, and then you see him thrown out of the car in the second one. So playing right next to each other they work pretty well. You know what, I'll tell you what happened to him, if anybody's curious, because it's not a happy story, but um... I mean that was the life that they lived, they they really did live day to day, dollar to dollar, you know and did whatever they could to make any money. Dana was extremely funny, and such a scammer, and to me, he was entertaining. He lived in the dorms. I actually got them a dorm, during the summertime here at UCLA because they were for rent. Here, am I at UCLA? Yeah, you know what I mean, anyway I got him a dorm up there, and it was during the time of the Vietnam war, where a lot of soldiers were sending back heroin. He knew this specific mailbox that the heroin would go to. So he would go steal it. Someone figured it out, and they put strychnine in there. That's how he died, yeah. I don't know what happened to Jennifer. I know there was a time when I actually started making money doing films, and we had been in touch, she was still walking the streets of Hollywood and when I would see her occasionally, she was always asking me for money. I would always try to do what I could. The last time I saw her she just she didn't look too good at all so I'm thinking she's probably not with us anymore. Yeah. (Toscano) Yeah, but they're kind of immortalized here now. (Spheeris) I thought about that! Thank you! Because I mean, what characters, you know, I mean back in those days, look how they dressed-up and what they did, and that's just a lifestyle that you probably wouldn't have been aware of if if we weren't fortunate enough to have done those little movies. (Toscano) That's what I mentioned in the intro, a lot of people that I've talked to that I've encountered especially, I Don't Know when it came out were not just blown away by the film, but holy cow, this is a whole world I don't even know about. They were really thrilled and amazed to discover it through your work. (Spheeris) My sister Linda who is a very, very well established hard working and brilliant set decorator is working on the Gilmore Girls show right now. Anyway, she wanted to come tonight, but then again she didn't, because she's so embarrassed of it. And then of course my brother was brave enough to come out. I mean, I don't know why I abuse my family so badly, ha-ha-ha. Even my mom, I wish she was here (Toscano) Speaking of abusing your family, the film of your mom is incredibly loving, actually even though, obviously you've had kind of a crazy upbringing like you said. I imagine it couldn't help but be sort of unstable with different father figures and so forth, but she really kind of came out on the other side of that. Like this really kind of life affirming person. Is that a pretty accurate portrait of her? (Spheeris) My brother will agree with this. I was always jealous of my mom because everybody loved her so much. I'm like how could I make people love me that much? Because everybody that mattered, I mean, that bar where the guy was dancing really badly, with the shirt tied around him... that guy was a really bad dancer, ha-ha. (Toscano) He's totally wasted too, I think. (Spheeris) Anyway, that was a bar that she worked in called. The Gateway. Then she worked in a circle and she met everybody in the market. She would go down, the joke she said about going to Sav-On or Thrifty or whatever it was, and putting the money in her bra, and getting more action out of it if they stole it, you know. Ha-ha. It's like everybody loved my mom. I think the reason is because in her somewhat tragic life she had her mother, my mother's mother died in an insane asylum. Yeah, and she wasn't diagnosed, I don't believe, but she was probably either bipolar or schizophrenic, and she was very abusive to my mother. So my mother had a really, really a hard time throughout her life. But she came out of it like on a positive sign, you know, and I always look at life like, that's what we're supposed to learn how to do! If I can be like her, that would be cool. I want people to like me, like everybody liked her. (Toscano) How's that worked out for you? (Spheeris) Not so good so far. No, it's actually, you know, the older I get the better it gets. Yeah, cuz I'm not pissed off anymore. I used to be really pissed off, and when you get rid of your anger people like you more. (audience member, yeah-amen) (Toscano) I think that's great advice. If nothing else you came and got some great advice here. Are we doing questions? Can I assume some people might have questions? I can't see very well. In the back there. (Questioner) I was just wondering, what was your father's name, in the carnival? (...w/ mic) What was your father's name that worked in the carnival? (Spheeris) Why were you curious? (Q:) Oh, because I collect horrible stuff, posters and stuff like that. (Spheeris) Oh you are? Oh you do? You're not making a movie about it, right? (Q:) No. (Spheeris) Because I am. (laughter) (Q:) I'm not making a movie about it. (Spheeris) Okay good. His name is Andrew Spheeris. Just like my brother's name. His nickname was Curly ,they called him Curly, but he was bald. I think at one point he had curls. But then it was, yeah. He was actually a pretty well-known wrestler before he started the carnival. Yeah. (Toscano) He was a bit older than your mom, right? (Spheeris) Yeah. he was 40 or so when he met my mother. He already had a family of four with this woman named Elizabeth in Arkansas. When he met my mom in Kansas, she was 19, and I was the oldest of that second litter. Yeah. Come on man, that's funny, laugh. (laughter) What is a guy doing running around having kids like that? It's so irresponsible. They didn't have birth control back then. That's the only reason I could figure. Yeah. (Toscano) Any other questions? (Q:) You just made a statement. As you're getting older you're no longer as angry as you were. I know a lot of times when people get older they find more things to complain about and get grumpier. Can you explain why your anger seems to have diminished as you got older? (Spheeris) That's a really interesting question. Thank you for asking that. I don't know if I can explain it or not, but... it just doesn't work. You know when you approach something from a position of anger, it never gets what you want out of life, and besides that, it hurts you. I think anger makes you sick. I think that is sort of our assignment in life is to try to to work through all that stuff, and not hold it in an angry way. For me, I don't get pissed anymore. I've noticed that. I just don't get angry. I feel so much better for it, and people treat me better. It's something I concentrate on all day, every day, is to not be angry. And to try whatever it was that was making me angry before, I try to just use it to as a lesson for what I could learn, and make myself better. I mean my mom was happy and she was totally broke. I mean, you might think, 'oh well you made a bunch of money making those movies. Maybe that's what made you happy?' Well no, the money doesn't make you happy at all. I think it makes things more difficult. You know. Marie is here, Marie. She works with a very, very wealthy man, and we know what a lot of money can do, and it does not make you happy. You have to find it within yourself. The first step is to just get rid of that anger. Oh god, I feel like I'm preaching. (Q:) You answered my question. (Spheeris) Thank you for asking. (Toscano) Right here in the middle. (Q:) Thank you. I enjoyed the movies again tonight. (Spheeris) Thank You. (Q:) And I enjoy you! The favorite movie tonight for me, was about your mother. (Spheeris) Okay. And she had mentioned about being married nine times, and she talked about being married once when she was 69 years old. How long did she live? How old was she when she passed? (Spheeris) 80... yes, Andy? How old, 83? (Andy) Almost eighty... eight (Spheeris) Yeah? Oh, it was 88. 2008 yeah, okay (Q:) I think she was great. (Spheeris) One time she was all excited, she talked about the cable guy. She saw this guy, the Time-Warner guy. He was this older Filipino dude, and she kind of picked him up, you know and that was her boyfriend for awhile. She would go on Filipino picnics and shit. My mom was a total party animal. She really was. (Toscano) There's one guy in the movie you asked about , she's like. 'No way was I married to that guy!' (Spheeris) Oh, Bobby Box, yeah. I don't know. She kept saying that she thinks he had killed someone, but yeah... my brother's shaking his head yeah. I mean we had guys coming in and out of, we lived in trailers, you know, and it was like you know, in and out for a lot of my personality forming years. It was pretty rough going there. I didn't know stability at all. You know, really. I mean there was one I guess, one stepfather stayed around longer than anybody else. He was in the Navy, yeah. I was always having to iron the white uniforms. Yeah, he drank a lot. Yeah. He was actually a total flat-out drunk. What can I tell you ~ (Toscano) Also in the middle there. (Theater Manager) Oh, please wait for the mic, we're recording... (Q:) I suppose my question is, you talked about your first two student films, about being slightly embarrassed or not not loving them. What surprised you by looking back at these films, like what moments do you cherish in them, and I don't know, still really enjoy? (Spheeris) You know what it does, it brings up, for me, it brings up a lot of sadness, honestly. Thanks Mark. (Toscano) Sorry. (Spheeris) But I'm glad that they're preserved, you know. But what happened, you know, is well, a lot of sadness comes from the fact that those years are gone. You know, they're gone. They're not coming back. I mean, I sat there and tears were coming down my face, and like 'why am I crying at Jimmy and Jennifer and Dana, and I'm crying. It's like oh, because they're gone. You know, I mean, I think it's the passage of time that we really spend so much energy trying to avoid even thinking about in our lives, and you have to face it it sooner or later. You know it's a reality, the passage of time smacked you right in the face. I don't cherish. I cherish having had the experience of having made the films if you know what I mean by that. I mean we were talking about, Dudes last night. It was such a wonderful evening. Even Jon Cryer was saying how It was his favorite film he ever did. He said that, because it was such a wonderful time. I feel really blessed that I was able to make films. And have that career, yeah. I wish I enjoyed it more. I wish I cherished things more. I cherish my dog and my cat and my daughter, you know. That's about it. (Q:) Hello... Hi, I just wanted to ask a process-based question. I was wondering if you could talk a little bit about specifically in, I Don't Know, and Hats Off To Hollywood, your relationship to the actors. Because as I was watching it, I kind of had... it seemed like it was fluid between being a script based narrative, and then these improvisational sort-of documentary type moments. And I also started to see as I was watching it that there were moments Where you almost like vetted yourself in the film as the director, where I could hear your direction. I'm just wondering if you could just talk or describe about your relationship to the actors? (Spheeris) Oh right. Well, I think what you're talking about is what was happening back then, in those days with filmmaking. I mean there was a point when the Skirball Center a few years ago, was screening the Bob Dylan documentary, Eat The Document. Is that what it's called? I need a film expert here. Eat The Document, it's called. No one's ever seen it, because Bob did it, and doesn't like it, and he wouldn't come and talk about it. So they got me to come and talk about it. But what I noticed about that film... it was shot about the same time as some of these early ones... back in the day when we were just getting the cameras going in film school. It was like, 'We will shoot anything. We will shoot anything and there are no rules.' That's the way it was for me. There are no rules. I can mix a narrative with a documentary. That's okay. That whole National Rehabilitation Center thing there, when we screened my project here, we screened it here at UCLA. I keep thinking I'm at UCLA. Why is that anyway? Boom. Because it's UCLA Archive. Paul Schrader was one of my contemporaries. He was in the audience and he said, he raised his hand, and said, 'Penelope, everybody knows these places exist. Why do you have to beat us over the head with it?' I was like, 'No Paul they don't exist. This is a -phony- documentary.' Darn. But there were no rules. You know back then, that was what was cool. As far as the actors go, they were my friends. You know, they were just people that I hung out with, and sometimes I had a camera, and sometimes I didn't. That's what people say even about the first Decline. 'How did you manage to infiltrate that culture, that group of people who were so close (unintelligible)?' Well, because they were my friends. I wasn't infiltrating anything. They were just there, and I think that's alI so... I don't know, it's gratifying to be able to do, and I think it also helps make a good film, if you're familiar with your subjects. (Toscano) Both of those films have something in common with Decline. It shows a real rapport and intimacy that you have with your subjects. I mean you really can tell that they trust you to a larger degree than they would just any filmmaker. (Spheeris) Yeah, I mean, I was offered at one point, when I was totally broke... I was offered a million dollars to to do The Decline Of Western Civilization: The Rap Years, but I don't know rap music. I don't do it. I'm not into it, so I don't think I could do it good. And well. So I really, literally turned down a million dollars. (applause) So there you go. (Toscano) Down here. (Q:) It's really interesting that with your background, you wound-up making films, and it would be interesting to know how that happened. To make films. And what was your progress winding up in UCLA? We are we are very close to UCLA. (Spheeris) Also it's the UCLA Archives, yeah? (Q:) Yeah. So what was that path you followed? (Spheeris) I started out as an art student at Long Beach State College at the same time Steven Spielberg was there. He probably knew at that point that he was going to be a film director. But women never had that thought. Because you just didn't think it. So I was an art student there. And while I was there, I started thinking that the art students were a little too kind of like, posers, and phony, and I wasn't going with the art thing. I know I'm in a museum here, so I hope I don't get struck by lightning. (laughter) (Toscano) I hope you don't either. (Spheeris) Uh, go exorcist on me here, ha-ha. So the art students were a little... I was not getting getting into that very very well. So I switched around. I met this wonderful, I mean teachers make such a difference in your life... I met this incredible teacher Dr. George Falcon was his name, and he was in the biological sciences. So I switched my major. I started studying the behavioral sciences. Then I went to Irvine to study the behavioral sciences there, and I was more comfortable in this scientific world than I was in the art world. Then one day standing on a hillside with a gentle Santa Ana wind blowing... there was a gorgeous guy named Bill Norton, who is a director. He said, you know I'm going to go to UCLA because they have a film school. I'm like, you're telling me Bill, that they really have a place where they will teach you how to make films?! You see if you think about it, the art, and the science, and the technology, that sort of thing, it's a good combination, film is! In the study of behavior and all that. They all kind of melted together and or me, when I found filmmaking, it was like I found a reason to be. It was a way to also be able to express myself, and be creative, and try to work through some of the problems I think, that were caused by the damaging early years. That's how that came about, and plus, I was really kind of hot for Bill. It's true. Then I moved up here and went to UCLA, and found out that he was in love with this woman named Roseanne. Then they got married and had some kids. I got left out in the cold. I've never had a really good romance record, but that's cool. My mom, right? Anyway, so you never know what's going to take you down the path. I mean, I ended up at UCLA, perfectly happy making films, stayed in the Master's program, -way- longer that I should have. Because I could make films! I was the first woman ever to work in the tech office there, to hand out the equipment. I could get the equipment whenever I wanted. I loaned it to Richard Pryor sometimes. I went and shot this whole bunch of little movies with it. (Toscano) I thought as a way to maybe close the evening... In these various trips to your vault, as we were pulling stuff out, and finding things... I think was the last time we were there, not that long ago really, we found this little piece, which was just labeled, Boy And Crows. (Spheeris) Did it have any audio? (Toscano) No. I said, what is this? And you said, I think that's my first film. What do you remember about that? (Spheeris) Well, I remember that when, Andy, you guys were still living down in Orange County. We finally got a house there in Westminster. When I started school at UCLA, I would go down and visit my family, and my mom down there. I was driving and had a camera with me, aha, I snuck out of the tech office, and a roll of film. It was negative, I think, film. It's a mix? I don't know what it is. I haven't seen it, he found it, and I haven't seen it yet. It's only four minutes, if you want to see it. There's no audio. (Toscano) It's silent, yeah. But we found it, and we preserved it, made a new negative, print just in time for this show. So we could. Nobody's seen this. (Spheeris) I haven't seen it. I haven't seen it in... You know, so like I said, it's only four minutes, and you don't have to listen to me talk afterwards, because we're out of here. But if you want to stay and watch four minutes of really... I don't know what it is?! (laughter) You're welcome to, and I so appreciate you guys coming out. It really means a lot to me that you came out tonight. (applause)